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W3C seems to be outsourcing questions to the main site:

https://www.w3.org/developers/tools/

Screen shot 2016-12-15

For those who close-voted:

Stack Overflow has a great and active community

That's true. Nothing against this part.

focused around W3C Standards and W3C developer tools

That's not true. Stack Overflow is neither focussing on W3C Standards nor on W3C developer tools. There may be a small percentage of questions dealing with it, yes.

To ask a question to the W3C Community

That's not true. If you ask a question on Stack Overflow, you're asking it to the Stack Overflow community, not to the W3C Community.

we invite you to use the w3c tag

This lacks usage guidance. Also, the tag wiki lacks usage guidance. I could ask the W3C community: "Hey, when will you meet next time to discuss HTML13 and CSS17?", which I definitely cannot ask on Stack Overflow. Without that usage guidance, W3C is redirecting questions to SO which we don't like here.

Questions in are not as bad as those about Cloudberry. If it's necessary at all (because Stack Overflow is well-known, IMHO), W3C could at least do better redirecting here.

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  • 58
    Oh this is just GREAT!
    – BoltClock
    Dec 15, 2016 at 10:22
  • 52
    The quality of questions in [w3c] isn't the primary problem. The foremost problem is that we don't know what kind of questions the [w3c] tag is supposed to represent, seeing as it's used for all kinds of questions that have any sort of relation to various W3C standards. It doesn't help that many questions that are actually about the W3C Process, and standardization, tend to be off-topic for Stack Overflow.
    – BoltClock
    Dec 15, 2016 at 10:25
  • 8
    Hmm, is there any real point in keeping it a secret that SO indeed has a [w3c] tag. And that BoltClock is an active subject expert. And he's great. Secrets like that are going to leak out sooner or later. Already happened on a lot of tags that I frequent, unfortunately. Dec 15, 2016 at 10:50
  • 5
    I'm afraid I don't understand why this is inappropriate. Are you saying you'd rather them recommend a different "standard" tag than [w3c]? Dec 15, 2016 at 11:49
  • 26
    [w3c] seems like a meta-tag that really just should be burninated.
    – Cerbrus
    Dec 15, 2016 at 12:26
  • 11
    I never understood how that's a sound strategy. Make it hard for SO users to find the existing thousand [w3c] questions so they'll get asked all over again. Make it hard for users to ignore such questions by not letting them add the tag to their profile. Share the pain and nobody will notice it hurts, I guess. We'll just belly-ache about it, "jeez, questions at SO really suck lately". And quit, lots of quitting. Question rates today are throttled by ~50% never getting an answer. 40% at [w3c] last month, there's room. Dec 15, 2016 at 12:56
  • 7
    @HansPassant: 964 questions out of 12.964.294. What do you expect to find when you search for w3c? The tag is ambiguous.
    – Cerbrus
    Dec 15, 2016 at 13:00
  • 5
    There's even a documentation proposal for it..?
    – Yates
    Dec 15, 2016 at 13:06
  • 37
    The message sounds like they think tagging is a way to reach a specific audience. Maybe I should start tagging my questions jonskeet.
    – nvoigt
    Dec 15, 2016 at 13:55
  • 5
    Ideally, [w3c] tag would be named less broadly as [w3c-standards] and described (when combined with XML, XSD, XPath, etc) as relating to the understanding and interpretation of W3C standards as they apply to programming -- on-topic and worthy of a tag. Burnination is overkill..
    – kjhughes
    Dec 15, 2016 at 14:20
  • 6
    @kjhughes: The tag should then be removed from 933 questions that aren't about standards, leaving only 31 questions. (Naïeve count assuming the standards tag is properly applied)
    – Cerbrus
    Dec 15, 2016 at 14:26
  • 4
    @Cerbrus: I don't doubt that [w3c] is currently overused. Most questions about tech covered by W3C standards are about applying the tech, not interpreting the standard. I'm just suggesting refinement of the tag description and some housecleaning (I can help) rather than full burnination.
    – kjhughes
    Dec 15, 2016 at 15:01
  • 13
    I just wish that these companies would come to meta and ask us what to put in that little text box. Hands down, no matter what, every single time someone from SO finds a text box that says someone should ask a question of some sort on SO (regardless of the words and phrasing used in the text box), someone is going to make a stink about it, and everyone will get all up in arms about it. I'm certain that if they came here, at least we would be able to get the belly-aching out of the way early.
    – user4639281
    Dec 15, 2016 at 18:00
  • 6
    If you want to see an organization tag that's really all over the place, take a look at [iso]. On the first page of the active questions list, I see references to ISO standards for a couple of programming languages, time and date formats, country codes, language codes, currency codes, a filesystem, a character set, a movie file format, and a camera sensitivity scale.
    – user2404501
    Dec 16, 2016 at 19:37
  • 6
    I took the first sentence to mean "Stack Overflow has great and active communities focused around a variety of topics, including W3C standards and W3C developer tools." I don't think the w3.org maintainers actually believe Stack Overflow is primarily and exclusively a W3C community.
    – BoltClock
    Dec 17, 2016 at 10:59

2 Answers 2

7

This looks like English language lawyering to me.

Stack Overflow can be seen as having one large community, which can be subdivided into smaller communities (mainly by the tags they frequent, Docs they frequent, chat rooms they frequent, etc.), many of which have at least some amount of overlap. For example, we have the Stack Overflow C "community", Stack Overflow C++ "community", Stack Overflow Java "community", etc.; being about some of the more well-known C family languages, and considering their similarities, these three tend to overlap from time to time.

Considering this, it seems that this can be interpreted as:

Within the Stack Overflow community, there is a helpful, active sub-community focused around W3C standards and developer tools.

True, from a certain point of view.

enter image description here

If there is a group of users which frequent [w3c], then they can be seen as this sort of community. Additionally, other users can be seen to drop in and out of this community from time to time, and the overlap with other communities (such as the [html] and [javascript] communities) likely makes it appear larger than it is.

To ask a question to this community, we suggest using the [w3c] tag.

Useful advice, but it needs clarification.

  • It should mention that other, relevant tags should also be used, and ideally also provide guidance on which W3C tag to use, since the main one is way too broad at the moment.
  • It should mention that while Stack Overflow may contain a W3C community, the Stack Overflow community as a whole is geared towards programming, and this takes precedence over any sub-communities. If they want to suggest using Stack Overflow for conversing about W3C, maybe they should suggest using a chat room instead if the question can't be directly related to programming.

It would likely be best if they were to reword it, to clear up any confusion this may cause. Ideally, they could also ask and answer a few Community Wiki questions regarding common programming issues the W3C community may face, which can be linked to from their site as canonical; this would provide quick answers to common problems, make it trivial to resolve duplicate questions, and provide a good indication of what type of W3C question fits here on Stack Overflow.

Other official sources, such as Google (Android), Canonical (Ubuntu), and Microsoft (MSDN), integrate with and/or suggest that their users also use Stack Overflow and/or the Stack Exchange as a whole, and there's nothing wrong with that. It only becomes a problem if they encourage users to do so in a way that's detrimental to the site (such as, for example, trying to outsource their support); unfortunately, as it's currently worded, that appears to be the case for W3C's attempt to reach out. Hopefully it will be improved in the future, in a way that benefits programmers; instead of trying to outsource W3C support, it should encourage the W3C community to integrate more with programming communities as a whole, and not just migrate to a different site for troubleshooting.

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  • Particularly, as it stands now, this looks like it could have similar results to the Facebook / Stack Overflow issue mentioned here. Dec 18, 2016 at 3:14
  • 3
    This is exactly what I mean in my last comment on the question.
    – BoltClock
    Dec 18, 2016 at 4:17
  • 1
    As a non-native speaker, it feels arrogant to me doing language-lawyering. I can just tell what I read in those sentences. Of course it's biased, since I don't have enough English knowledge to be unbiased. Dec 18, 2016 at 23:15
  • The message given in the question clearly gives a false image of SO and suggests an unconstructive way of action. Thus it's causing problems for SO, and that is something that needs to be fixed. Feb 5, 2019 at 21:29
-38

All taken care of! I made a Twitter account and reached out here. Onto the next pressing problem!

But seriously, what problem are you trying to solve here?

Is it some sort of secret that people can post questions to Stack Overflow and get answers? Was this just something funny worth chatting about on the ol' meta today? Do we want to actively prevent people from promoting us?

Or is the issue that if a user gets to Stack Overflow without being properly educated in how to ask a question on Stack Overflow, it is far too late?

Because if that's what we're joking about then we pretty obviously have some serious soul searching to do.

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  • 2
    Willfully misguiding users towards the wrong site, its bad experience.
    – Braiam
    Dec 17, 2016 at 0:28
  • @Braiam s/wrong/right, s/bad/good, FTFY
    – djechlin
    Dec 17, 2016 at 0:38
  • 1
    Actually, you would get syntax errors...
    – Braiam
    Dec 17, 2016 at 1:15
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    Your tweet is a bit confusing. w3c didn't make this meta post
    – Rob Mod
    Dec 17, 2016 at 2:15
  • 5
    Take a look at the rest of outsourcing to see why blindly directing visitors to Website X to ask questions at SO for anything related to X is considered harmful. Dec 17, 2016 at 5:27
  • @NathanTuggy is this seriously our standard way of doing things? We have to reach out to people who refer to us and tell them they shouldn't do that?
    – djechlin
    Dec 17, 2016 at 5:39
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    @djechlin: Well, that they shouldn't do it wrong, no. "Here is our customer support" -> wrong wrong wrong. "Here is the W3C community on <random site> and you can ask them stuff" -> still wrong. If we're getting referrals based on grave misconceptions, no, we don't want those. W3C is far from the worst offender, but it's still worth working things out. Dec 17, 2016 at 5:44
  • 8
    The tweet wasn't necessary. It feels like you're overstepping your boundaries with regards to this. Let the actual SO employees coordinate any reaching out that they'd need to do, should they decide to do so.
    – Makoto
    Dec 17, 2016 at 7:36
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    But seriously, what problem are you trying to solve here? the problem seems obvious: encouragement by an institution like the W3C to ask a question on SO is a strong signal that there's no need to consult SO's rules on how to ask a question first. Other companies doing this has led to a great number of off-topic questions getting asked, downvoted, and closed, to the great frustration of both the community and the askers.
    – Pekka
    Dec 17, 2016 at 9:31
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    This answer reads like you're trying as hard as you can to miss the point by as many miles as possible.
    – BoltClock
    Dec 17, 2016 at 11:03
  • @BoltClock I didn't realize this was a standard template question. I thought it was extremely odd there was no actual problem being presented but apparently we treat this as standard category. And while the "oh no! they will come here and ask questions wrong" jumps out at me as a thing that will probably happen, philosophically I truly feel that means we have a big problem, which we definitely do -- Robert Harvey posted this in a "things to improve" thread not long ago. Seems this comes up O(dozens) of times. Manageable, but symptomatic of an inscrutable usability culture.
    – djechlin
    Dec 17, 2016 at 17:28
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    @djechlin click the "outsourcing" tag on the question for some more examples. Having a link on your company's site saying "Having questions about our product? Ask a question on Stack Overflow with the tag $company-tag!" has in the past caused many influxes of poor-quality questions of people thinking Stack Overflow was the support forum for that company. It isn't though.
    – CodeCaster
    Dec 18, 2016 at 13:33

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