-22

I just flagged one of my older answers for deletion. I had been doing some housekeeping today, so I had already bumped up against my delete limit. The comments on the answer needed cleaning up anyway, so I did not think there was anything wrong with asking a moderator to delete the whole thing. The answer is useless, it was basically serving as a chat room.

The request was curtly denied:

If you want to delete the answer then just delete it.

Is the moderator unaware of the fact that I cannot delete as many of my own answers as I want?

I reflagged the answer:

I am blocked from deleting any more of my answers today. This is a useless answer that needs to be deleted. I don't want to move on and forget, so please do delete it, and stop telling me to delete it myself when the site itself is preventing me from doing so. I would also appreciate it if you removed the "declined" from my previous flag for this answer.

Which was countered with:

Then delete it tomorrow. Moderators are not your personal janitors.

I am rather taken aback by this because I had not encountered this kind of tone in all the years of contributing to Stack Overflow.

If there is a policy that moderators will not delete answers by people who can delete them themselves another day, one can point that out instead of "delete it yourself" ... "not your personal janitor".

I am just pointing out this out given the fact that people who provide high quality answers are the scarce resource on Stack Overflow, and being rude to them seems not to align well with the goal of drawing more and more users who hope to be able to find such answers to their questions. FYI.

PS: Note that, in the past users have been severely punished for deleting too many of their own answers. So, I thought it was reasonable to ask a moderator.

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  • 2
    FYI, we can't see the flag summaries like this link: stackoverflow.com/users/flag-summary/100754
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:27
  • 3
    A moderator can presumably see them using that link, so I don't think including it is inappropriate. It just highlights the limits of a regular users' powers. :-)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:28
  • 11
    I agree with the action taken by the moderator, but I'm really against the attitude.
    – Maroun
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:28
  • 20
    One encounter where the mod was behaving differently that you're used to does not necessarily constitute a "shift in moderator attitudes", though.
    – Pekka
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:29
  • 2
    Heh, apparently is easier to flag it as NAA, and wait for the community to delete it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:29
  • 2
    Side note: I'm curious why you want to delete an answer like that? I don't know the platform but the answer looks kind of valuable. Is it completely invalidated by the accepted answer?
    – Pekka
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:31
  • 12
    The moderator's tone might indeed be rude, but honestly I don't see a reason to waste moderators' time by raising this flag instead of just deleting that question tomorrow. Moderators have many much more important things to handle and I think that you should use flags only when necessary. Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:33
  • 6
    @Braiam: You'd have to ask someone else to do that for you. You can't NAA your own answers.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:33
  • @BoltClock when I was suggesting the user to flag its own answer as NAA?
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:36
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    The best answer to "what explains the shift in moderator attitudes?" is that the site is growing exponentially, with the number of low-quality posts and "problem" situations growing to match. Moderators slog through piles of crap every day, and feel like they have "real" problems to deal with, so fulfilling mundane-sounding requests like this one isn't something they feel like is a constructive use of their time. It is rather a shame that the quality problems of the site are spilling over in how they interact with valuable contributors, who already share their disdain for this quality decline.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:43
  • 2
    @Braiam: You said it was easier to flag the answer as NAA and wait for the community to delete it. Except you can't flag your own answers as NAA.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:45
  • @BoltClock again when I said that the user has to flag it's own answer? I stated how things would be easier to delete for everyone involved, not for the user.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:50
  • 8
    @Braiam: In which case how is your comment even relevant to the topic at hand?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:52
  • @BoltClock I'm stating how to delete that answer (under which premise would be actually deleted and nobody will ever complain about it). How is that not relevant?
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:53
  • 2
    Hey! Look! It's politics unnecessarily being shoehorned into a conversation about something non political! Yay!
    – user1228
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 15:54

4 Answers 4

3

I think the moderator took the right action by declining your flag - it's really not their job to clean your personal posts, especially when they don't harm anyone (not spam, not NAA, ...).

However, I think that the mod's attitude was inappropriate, regardless of your reputation. Moderators should provide informative responses while trying to be a good model for all of us - I think that we all agree that

Then delete it tomorrow. Moderators are not your personal janitors.

isn't a good reply, especially not from a moderator.

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  • 3
    The mod answer was a bit curt, yeah. Would you have preferred "Unless it is an emergency, please wait one day. You do not need moderator intervention for this." - as it also (1) offers a practical solution, and (2) explains a mod should not be bothered with such a task?
    – Jongware
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 16:38
  • 4
    @RadLexus This response is one of many others that are much better, for both OP and mod.
    – Maroun
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 16:43
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    @Rad "Quick! It's an emergency! If you don't delete this in the next 20 seconds, the world is going to end! - 3 minutes ago"
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 20:54
  • 3
    Sigh, it is a perfectly descriptive word. Okay then, moderators are not your personal custodial staff members. Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 7:28
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    @HansPassant It's indeed descriptive, but not respectful at all. I don't like it when I ask for something and get "I'm not your personal janitor" as a response, it's very offensive, and it's even more when it comes from a moderator.
    – Maroun
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 7:53
  • 1
    Just a quick headsup: When WE say things like that to new users, it's "curt but respectful"... but a mod isn't allowed? Honestly it's funny to see how much, once the tables turn, people want the non curt message. When most of us usually defend curt messages on new users posts... (not defending any message atm, just finding the parallel a bit funny)
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 17:54
38

Is the moderator unaware of the fact that I cannot delete as many of my own answers as I want?

No, but your flag text made it sound like you were unaware of the fact that you could delete your own answers:

Comments need cleaning up. The answer should also be deleted because it is useless.

You never said anything about not being able to delete your answer because you were being rate limited.

And the rate limit is only per-day. Was it so urgent that you needed it to be deleted right now? Was there a reason you couldn't wait a day, like the error message probably told you to at the time you tried to delete your answer (which, by the way, did not trigger a "possible vandalism — deletions" auto-flag, so I can't tell if you were actually rate limited by attempting to delete that particular answer)?

Please be more considerate of other issues which actually warrant moderator intervention either due to urgency or because action cannot be taken by normal users. Yours isn't the only "please delete my post" flag that we have to decline on a daily basis. We get like a dozen or so of these every day, and the ones that go unhandled pile up over time (and that's how 10 flags turns to 1000 flags in a matter of weeks). Not saying that excuses the tone of the flag response, but please put yourself in our shoes.

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  • 9
    This explains the decline reason for the first flag, which is what immediately came to my mind upon reading it. However, it completely skirts an explanation of the decline reason for the second flag, which was extremely rude and apparently entirely unwarranted, especially to a long-standing, valuable contributor. You implicitly claim Sinan was being inconsiderate, but I don't think that is at all true. He was flagging for an issue where "action cannot be taken by normal users", which he explained in the flag reason. You just think he should wait, but he explained why he didn't want to.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:40
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    @Cody Gray: Simply not wanting to wait is not an acceptable reason to flag for speedy deletion. The rate limit is there for a reason.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:44
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    Right, so, you disagree with the flag. That's a legitimate reason to mark it as "declined", but not a legitimate reason to tell the user to bugger off.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:45
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    @Cody Gray: So what do you want us to say (or, rather, what does Sinan expect us to say)? The last time I said "sorry" I got downvoted for not answering the question.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:47
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    I don't think I need to explain to you that denizens of Meta will downvote for all sorts of silly reasons. "I'm sorry, this was a mistake" is probably the #1 most common answers to Meta questions regarding the actions of a specific moderator. I don't think you can legitimately claim that the community has a problem with this. Apologies are certainly not something that human beings have a problem with. I won't speak for what Sinan expected, but I downvoted this answer for appearing to skirt the most salient issue.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 15:49
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    "your flag text made it sound like you were unaware of the fact that you could delete your own answers" ... No, I am simply aware of the fact that in the past users have been punished for deleting their own answers, so I thought it was best to ask a moderator instead of continuing to delete answers day after day. Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 16:00
  • 1
    @Cody Gray: I'll take your word for it. Anyway, your comment on the question's a better answer than mine. It would not be remiss to post it as such.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 16:06
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    @Sinan Ünür: If you're referring to a rate limit, that's not a punishment. That's a safeguard preventing ragequitters from doing too much damage to what is otherwise useful content out of emotional reasons (not saying that that's your motivation, but it's a safeguard). If you're referring to warnings/suspensions by moderator, we only suspend for at most a day or two to curb the behavior and elicit a response from the user, again as a safeguard. Many users routinely clean up their useless answers and we turn a blind eye to them because they're not doing anything particularly wrong.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 16:09
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    @BoltClock No, I am not referring to the rate limit. The rate limit was established after a highly publicized incident ... Jeff Atwood might remember. So, I thought it would be prudent to involve a moderator once I hit the limit lest I be banned or face more severe penalties for deleting my own answers. A simple "it is safe for you to continue deleting" would have been sufficient. Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 16:19
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    @JoshCaswell everyone has their very own Right Thing™, but nobody thinks of "what's the best for everyone".
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 17:46
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    @JoshCaswell - I don't really see any increase in conflicts between moderators and community members. In fact, things have been much worse in the past. Keep in mind that generally the only cases you see being publicized on Meta are disagreements. If someone handles hundreds of flags in a day and lets a little irritation slip through in one response, that's the one you'll hear about. Philosophical disagreements about what should and should not be handled by moderators are about preventing overwork, not the result of it. We're all trying to make the system more sustainable.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 19:32
23

FWIW, the message shown when you hit the rate limit reads as follows:

You have already deleted 5 of your own posts today; further deletes are blocked

That's just the rate-limit. There are other checks for vandalism, but they're (now) much more strict than the rate-limiter. There's no penalty for being rate-limited here, any more than there would be for hitting the voting rate-limit, or answering rate-limit, or any of the myriad other rate-limits built into the system.

Note also that moderators can't readily change the status of past flags (with the exception of Spam and Offensive, where this is necessary due to the penalties associated with them).

As for the change in attitudes... I'm not sure there is one. Be careful about reading too much into a sentence or two; folks often come off as having an attitude when they don't mean to. You see this in comments, in chat, here on meta, and of course in flags and their responses. I assume you didn't mean to come across as petulant in your second flag either, but that's how it struck me at first; without the context of the rest of your meta post here, I'd probably have assumed you were in a foul mood. When in doubt, err on the side of over-communicating - text is frequently less information-dense than we like to assume.

See also:

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  • What is the reasoning towards rate-limiting self deletions of 0 scored post?
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 20:14
  • 2
    The rate-limit applies to all posts older than a day scoring 0 or more, @Braiam. The intent is to discourage rage-quitting: deleting all of your past contributions as revenge or whatever. There's nothing special about 0 here; the exception is made for posts that score less than 0, as those are frequently the target of cleanup efforts which aren't usually something we'd want to discourage.
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:36
  • I think that 0 and older than a year is pretty good indication that there's no positive contribution either, so I see no harm into these being free too.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:46
  • 2
    @Braiam: "I think that 0 and older than a year is pretty good indication that there's no positive contribution either" That's not reason enough to want them deleted. Removing content should only be done when there is evidence of a negative contribution. A contribution for which there is no evidence of being either positive nor negative should be kept. Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:54
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    You have 10 answers that meet those criteria, @Braiam... Plus another 4 already deleted. So if you wanted to delete them, it'd take you two days to do so. Of course, you've already waited over a year, so what's the rush? I sympathize with the folks doing this sort of clean-up every week; the occasional person who never cleans up until one day when they "get religion" and decide to do it all at once is perfectly able to pace themselves.
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 22:01
  • But you need to keep me motivated to do so. If you suddenly came hurling abuse my way, misrepresenting what I consider a Good Thing™, obviously I will get the cues and never do it again, which I assure you is not a good thing.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 1:12
  • @NicolBolas Things should gravitate towards their best possible quality. If they do not, they are distracting, therefore negative contributions.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 1:14
-15

Let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture:

A user is doing house-keeping, which is a chore, and nobody wants to do chores (I don't). The house-keeping in this case is removing bad answers, the kind of answers we don't want that it posted when we didn't have very clear definitions of what is a bad answer is (the definition is constantly broaden, not narrowing, unlike good answers). I don't see anything bad in this, in fact, we should promote this!

A more clear example: Let's presume you are this guy. You have 33k answers. Some of them prior comments, duplicates, and all the cool tools we have right now. Summary, not all of your answers aren't up to today's standards. You find yourself with the desire to procrastinate some free time and decide to review your oldest answers. We need to exploit that motivation and direct them towards productive things, and since we already established that curation is good, why not let you do it?

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    You're effectively asking for a feature request to turn off deletion limiting. What does that have to do with making moderators delete things for you? However much "free time" you have, that doesn't give you the right to take time from others. Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:18
  • @NicolBolas I'm not asking for a feature request: I'm indicating that the moderator should instead promote this kind of actions instead of being a deterrent. The moderator wasted more time crafting the "very short" message than clicking the delete button that is just a click away.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:22
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    "The moderator wasted more time crafting the "very short" message than clicking the delete button that is just a click away." Moderators should not delete things just because they're told to. They should only delete things that are worthy of deletion. And that would require actually examining the post themselves. Which takes time. So no, your statement is not true. Moderators should not be used as deletion-bots. Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:27
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    @NicolBolas and how they evaluate "worthy of deletion"? Again, you are presuming some kind of abuse: user found its own answer sub-optimal, it's on the best interest of the site that content is as optimal as possible, if anything that has to count as a very strong signal here.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:29
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    Let's put it another way. Between investigating and cracking down on a voting ring, dealing with vulgar content that has several flags against it, or someone asking to delete their question a few hours before they can do so again, which issue seems to be the most pertinent?
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:33
  • @Makoto all of them.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:35
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    I'll have to forcefully disagree, since out of those three options, one of them can be successfully and appropriately delegated to the requester. Mods have bigger fish to fry here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:38
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    @Makoto so, smaller fishes get no love? You know that people aren't happy the more money they have but are unhappy when they have no/little money? The "petty" annoyances that crop up when you have no money makes you unhappy, here is the same thing. Petty problems that makes the collective unhappy, since they tend to build up.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:41
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    @Braiam: "so, smaller fishes get no love?" Yes. That's what happens when you have a limited number of people who have a limited amount of time. The issues that will take care of themselves given time should take care of themselves. Issues that need moderators should be delegated to moderators. You keep acting like these answers will forever stay undeleted. When the user has the time later, they can delete them. Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:51
  • @Braiam: "Again, you are presuming some kind of abuse" Well, yes, considering that rate limits only apply to answers for which there is no evidence that they should be deleted. We're not talking about forbidding the occasional delete; we're talking about bunches of deletes. That's far more likely to be abuse than reasonable use of the system. Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 21:57
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    This isn't just a small fish, this is a fish that can caught without any help. The OP just needs to wait a while.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 22:12
  • @Makoto and hope that he is still willing to spend his time curating his own content? Good luck with that. People that gets demotivated when they try to do something, rarely start doing so when they get motivated. Nobody likes kill joys.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 1:07
  • @NicolBolas 5 delete on a single day... that's a bunch? This user has 2k, so it's about 0.2% of all its answer, not even positive scored ones and quite old. I would say that if he wants to delete answers that hasn't been deemed positively by the community, he can delete them any time he wants.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 1:10
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    @Braiam so.... if the user isn't willing to spend HIS time on this, it's okay for him to ask a mod to spend HIS, when mod time is valued higher than user's time? sounds..... like an ineffective use of time. If I was managing that, I would make sure my mod time (which is limited and can deal with stuff no amount of user time can), is spent on mod only action. When you prioritize, some stuff gets left behind, yes. That is expected. In an ideal world I'd agree with you. Stack doesn't have the resources to be there.
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 16:02
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    @Braiam Let's agree to disagree here. Either a)Mod deleted, which means extra time (I expect a mod to go and CHECK, not just be a "delete-lackey" for a user saying "please delete this") that should be spent on something better than that. or b) user bookmarks it, waits 24 hours, does it himself. You seem to be okay with a... to me it's a misuse of mod time. Honestly I see NO reason why "can't do it TODAY" means a mod has to do it. They have better things to do. That answer wasn't malicious and could have EASILY waited an extra day.
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 17:46

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