47

Just having some trouble sleeping, so decided to check Stack Overflow (It's currently 1AM EST)

And noticed this question with 5 upvotes within 5 minutes. Curious, I looked into it, and it had 4 views (3 not including me)


enter image description here


Not only that, but the body of the question is pretty weak, and in general it seems like a small question.

But it still got 5 upvotes (which in my limited experience, is pretty rare).

To me this looks like vote manipulation, but my question is, does it matter?
It doesn't hurt any, and there is no flag for it so I wasn't sure, and really just curious if people have seen this before, and if it can really be confirmed as vote manipulation.

Interesting EDIT:
The question I linked a few minutes later had 7 upvotes, with one answer-- and the answerer works at the same company as the user who asked the question (based off of SO profile).

I just checked again, and now the question received 4 downvotes. Not sure what's going on here, but it looks like there's a guy at some company who asked a question, then told his coworkers to go and upvote the question, then tried to get a coworker to answer the question.


enter image description here


If this was the case, is there anything wrong there?
Is it kosher to get coworkers, or even friends to upvote a question?
Technically they are different people, with different opinions, and technically you can't prove that the upvoter didn't upvote because they thought it was a good question.

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  • 7
    The question still has 7 upvotes (you can see that by clicking the score). It also has 4 downvotes, because your post drew some attention to it from people who think it's an awful question in its current form.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:46
  • Oh my bad, didn't know you could actually see +/- breakdown
    – A O
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:46
  • 7
    You get that privilege at 1000 rep. It's not super useful, except for cases like this.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:47
  • 4
    Related How would a low quality question get a lot of upvotes? Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:58
  • 3
    While not the case here, questions can receive upvotes from being displayed in some review queues (e.g. First Posts). For some other questions, that can account for more votes than views. Obviously, this particular question would not have been in that queue due to it not being that user's first post. Given that the question timeline show that this was in any review queue, I would be interested in knowing what other ways a question could get more votes than views.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 0:29
  • @Makyen shouldiblamecaching.com
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 21:33
  • The number of views doesn't update automatically (i.e. you nee to refresh the page to see an updated view count). But vote counts do periodically update in the background. This is probably how you were able to see (at least) 5 votes on the screen with a view count of 4. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 3:27

3 Answers 3

38

As mentioned in this topic, voting rings can sometimes escape the notice of the script that detects serial voting, especially if it happens on a small scale like here.

The last three questions of this particular user are mediocre at best, yet still have received 5-7 upvotes in less than 24 hours after posting. That, combined with your observation about his coworker answering the question (which is perfectly acceptable under normal circumstances) would be enough reason for me to raise a custom moderator flag on one of his posts. It pays to be thorough here; the more evidence you can gather, the more chance there is that ♦ moderators will take action (if found guilty, of course). A single post is usually too weak for a 'conviction'.

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  • If the question was just reallllly bad, but had +5 upvotes (and no other evidence), would it be worth it to flag as vote manipulation? Or just flag as a poor question?
    – A O
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:02
  • In that case, I'd downvote, and if applicable flag/cast a close vote as well. There's a chatroom where you can ask for help with closing a question.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:13
  • @AO Building on Glorfindel's comment, if you are going to check out that chatroom, you may want to read their FAQ
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:16
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    @AO - If a single question was truly terrible (wildly offtopic question about cement mixers, something with no punctuation or capitalization whatsoever, completely unintelligible) and yet is getting huge amounts of upvotes, that might be worth a flag. Likewise, upvoted spam or trolling. We just don't want people flagging any question of mediocre quality getting a vote or two. For the record, your instincts on this question were correct, and we're acting on this now. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 17:55
  • How can someone be "found guilty" when it's not clear what the rules are? Is it documented somewhere that I'm not allowed to upvote my coworkers? Is it documented somewhere that I'm not allowed to ask my coworkers to upvote me? What is the actual policy? Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 11:04
  • 5
    @DavidWallace the rule is very simple: you vote for content, not for people.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 12:01
16

Looks like I didn't explain it too well in my last answer. My apologies.

My take :

If you see that there is something fishy going on, feel free to flag. Adding additional details explaining what you think is wrong would be helpful. For example, the highly up-voted question mentioned by the OP can be flagged for mod attention with custom reason as "got too many up-votes in a short time frame. Answerer and OP work for the same company". Trust your instinct, if there is a person asking for your help in reopening a "friend's post" about Java and you observe that the 2 accounts are somehow related, by all means flag. We have had cases where flags raised by SO users have helped us find QBan evasion accounts and Sock puppets.

Note : Poor posts with a lot of up-votes are not uncommon on Stack Overflow. So, just because a post is poor, it doesn't automatically mean that something is fishy.

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  • 4
    no worries mate, i got your original meaning ^^
    – A O
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 16:21
-21

Unless you see clear signs of fraud, don't flag such things. If the system detects such voting fraud, those votes will get invalidated. Since you cannot see who voted for that post and for what reasons, it is better to leave it alone.

When can you use a custom flag for similar reasons?

If you see "obvious" vote fraud / abuse of the system. For example, a person creates 2 accounts with same name and posts a question with one and answer with another account. Or if a person explicitly states that he has another Stack Overflow account to evade certain restrictions / bans, then you can raise a custom mod flag.

P.S.: Don't flag for voting fraud / ban evasion unless there is some evidence that the accounts involved are somehow related.

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    I suppose the concern is its only 'if' the automated system detects it. Otherwise we need to hope a moderator accidentally stumbles across it.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:33
  • 1
    @Rob - The problem is people can flag any post (question or answer) as - "something suspicious here, too many votes even when its a poor one". Its honestly extremely difficult for mods to look into each one of them and check if they are valid. Most custom flags are difficult to handle because they take more time. Also, we have processes in place to check voting fraud Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:40
  • Edited the question for further discussion-- it looks like the original questioner asked his coworkers to come and upvote. Because they, in theory, are different people, would that be considered voting fraud?
    – A O
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:43
  • 3
    @AO - Asking friends or family to vote for you is considered as voting fraud. Like I mentioned in the second part of my answer, if you see some concrete sign (like a comment) that makes it clear that there is something fishy going on, then by all means flag. What I am saying is - Please do not flag poor posts just because they get a lot of upvotes in a short period. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:50
  • No disagreement there. But is the concern for moderator workload? Because in theory these poor questions with high upvotes will attract more flags that moderators would have to sift through right? (I don't know how moderators work). In fact if you look at the user I found here, you can see the last 3 questions of his were (subjectively) poor, and had +6/7 upvotes
    – A O
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 6:57
  • @AO - Mods usually don't look at "voting fraud" when handling flags like VLQ / NAA / spam etc. I also accept that there have been a lot of cases where we have found socks / targeted voting based on custom flags raised by SO users. Like I keep mentioning, lot of upvotes on a poor question in a short time is not a concrete sign that something fishy is going on. If people start flagging such posts, we will end up with a lot of false positives. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:05
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    I agree with the general sentiment that votes alone don't mean anything. Did everyone forget this is Stack Overflow? Garbage gets upvoted all the time. If there is any sort of evidence other than voting alone, then it is more acceptable, so long as the evidence is presented in the flag. The more evidence the better.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:05
  • Er sorry I am bad at asking questions. If a question is just really really horrible, but had +5 votes, would you rather I flag it for being a bad question, or for possible manipulation?
    – A O
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:06
  • @A.O. If a question is off-topic vote to close it, regardless of the score. If you have reasonable evidence that there is voting fraud, other than votes alone, flag it. Mods can't see who voted for what, if I recall correctly only devs can, and votes alone don't warrant sending a request to a dev to look at the database. Garbage gets upvoted on a regular basis by well meaning users who just don't know any better.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:08
  • 1
    will do, danke ^^
    – A O
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:11
  • 3
    @AO Another point is "monkey see, monkey do" problem. (It's present a lot in the android tag). This post has 2 upvotes, I need 30 more upvotes to get badge, lemme upvote Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 7:11
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    No, the OP is talking about a highly specific vote abuse pattern. The kind that should always be handled by a moderator. If you don't recognize it from the user's rep history then please pass it on to Brad, he's handled many cases like this one in the past. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 8:27
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    @HansPassant - Initially, the OP was talking about one poor post that got a lot of up votes in a short period and asked if it was OK to flag such questions. My answer was, we should not flag stuff for mod attention solely based on voting patterns on one particular post. Please see the second part of my answer. If there is some sort of evidence / hint that there is some fraud, I asked the OP to flag it. If the OP looks into the account and can see that there is something fishy, then he can flag it. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 8:36
  • 1
    ... and the record skips. ...and the record skips. ...and the record skips.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 8:58
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    You are just quoting your answer back, I already said it made no sense. I'm especially critical of the "really, really sure" requirement. Users are never sure, the system was carefully designed to ensure they never could be. Because that invites vigilante justice and that never ends well. A mechanism must exist where a user can flag a mod with "have a look please, this looks very fishy". Much like the OP did, he certainly wasn't wrong. You guys can see a lot more and you can do something about it. That's the way it worked before and it has worked well and that's why we need mods. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 9:08

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