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Our "Be Nice" page is pretty good, but I think it needs examples.

I see a number of repeated patterns in comments, especially with new users.

On Hackernews they have a page ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ) which gives some good examples on rephrasing your language

eg

Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

and I have seen the equivalent "Did you even read the Help??" here on SO a number of times. Which would be better phrased as "Please read the Help, your question needs a number of improvements, .... "

I'm sure there are plenty of examples of other language that could be rephrased and made more welcoming while allowing people to edit their questions into a form we tend to like here at SO without feeling attacked.

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    ironically your alternative wording takes it as an assumption that the other user didn't read the help, rather than the former, which merely insinuates that they didn't.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 21:49
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    reason for downvotes? I guess people disagree with your suggestion. I think it’s an interesting idea
    – Pekka
    Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 21:50
  • related FAQ on SE, I tried to put down some examples of common comments here To nuke, or not to nuke- that is the question: on post you find the related meta that I found and you will also see how the "meta" feels about this issue Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 21:52
  • @PetterFriberg that looks good, be nice to see some of the advice be promoted to stackoverflow.com/help/be-nice Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 21:55
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    However I'm not sure if meta of SO is the right place, here is a failed attempt, meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/334870/…, but you can join the crew, "hey we are fairly good users of SO and we are tired to see and clean up these comments, please be constructive" Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 21:58
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    well, as far as I know, please tell me otherwise, if I want to suggest the "be nice" page get updated with some more content, I have to do it through meta? Otherwise I can just do nothing :) But I'm just encountering too many people who are venomous about SO because of their first experiences. Often they will admit "yeah, my question wasn't super well written" but they end up feeling flamed for it. Not sure we are encouraging "Edit Edit Edit till it's good" behavior. Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 22:09
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    Hmya, SE painted themselves into a corner they can't get out of. Starting point is that "What have you tried?" is rude and gets blocked. Just about anything anybody can come up with that is nicer than that will never say "this post is not good enough, you need to work on it". If an SO user has no clue whatsoever what "be nice" means then he needs to have a long-overdue conversation with his mother, she always knows. Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 22:22
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    Amusingly, "This post is not good enough, you need to work on it" isn't blocked.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 22:28
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    The only cases where I could comment "What have you tried?" are also when I'm casting both close and down vote... the commentary seems to me like beatin' a dead horse.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 28, 2016 at 0:59

3 Answers 3

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Seems like you were able to recognize pointlessly exasperated commentary without the aid of an example...

Funny enough, the only time I see this particular rule referenced on HN is when someone is using it to beat another commenter over the head, thus turning one useless comment into a thread of useless comments.

If a comment doesn't add anything constructive to the conversation, just flag it. Regardless of whether it matches pre-identified patterns or not. If you have it in you, post a comment that does add something to the discussion - for example, one that points out the relevant help page instead of one that laments the lack of reading. Then not only can the pointless comment be deleted, the asker can perhaps find something useful in the thread after all.

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    I don't intend for an authoritative list, just something we can point people to that MAY make them rethink their approach to SO. When certain patterns of behavior become too common, the community in general will think its acceptable. Just think we need to chip away at establishing a more editorial mindset Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 22:23
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    Well, that's what I'm concerned about: I don't see any value in two useless comments in a thread when one is already too many. If you happen to find someone in chat or meta who is posting pointlessly, by all means tell them to find a hobby... But otherwise, probably best to avoid hypocrisy. Set a good example.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 27, 2016 at 22:27
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You know, at first I was against this... then I sleep over it and got what the "be nice" examples we actually need:

  • Please, others are donating their time answering your question, don't demand them to help you.
  • Others are donating their expertise critically reviewing your answers, take their reviews with professionalism.
  • etc...

The be nice doesn't tell you to be nice to the people that is already here... answering questions, moderating, spending their time building a practical knowledge repository and that's wrong. Maybe adding examples about that should be done.

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    But what you are talking about is a more macro style of behavior and attitude, as opposed to "being nice", which as I understand it is more about verbal etiquette.
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 28, 2016 at 18:17
  • @torazaburo my answer was something written in jest... because I consider that the guidance is way too much geared towards making sure that established users are welcoming, but none of it says anything about how you should treat the people that is already there.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 6, 2016 at 14:47
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Are you making specific proposals for changes to the be nice page? Otherwise, this question is far too abstract.

If you're proposing to add the specific example of "Did you read the manual?" as being "not nice", why is that not nice? It's just an objective question. Any emotional ramifications ("Oh no, I'm being attacked as lazy and stupid for not having read the manual! Everyone here is horrible! I hate this site! I'm leaving!") are purely in the mind of the reader. If in fact the question is one that could have been solved by reading the manual, then a bit of emphasis (the "even") is fine, in my opinion, if it gets the OP's attention. Even if the writer of the comment had negative and derogatory thoughts in his mind at the time they wrote "did you read the manual", by no objective standard are such thoughts manifested in those words.

In response to a comment "did you read the manual", instead of getting their knickers in a twist, the OP could answer "Wow, you mean all this stuff is actually documented somewhere, and some people actually read that to learn stuff?", or "No, but I will now", or "No, because I couldn't find it, please point me to it!", or "Yes, but I didn't understand part X", all of which are useful continuations to the thread that couldn't even happen without the initial "did you read the manual" question. Put a different way, the "did you read the manual" question is a useful way to probe the poster's level of knowledge and style of learning.

The underlying problem is that people are just too thin-skinned. They need to develop a thicker skin to survive and prosper on any site, not just SO. Basically, they need to calm down, and stop imagining that everyone is trying to attack them. If someone is really trying to attack them, or they believe that they are, then they can either leave (the question, or the thread, or the site), or use whatever moderator tools are available, such as flagging, which work perfectly well. They don't need people peering over their shoulders worrying about whether they've maybe been insulted, and intervening to rectify perceived slights, or trying to fine-tune some code of conduct which most people will never read anyway, much less adhere to.

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    Yes, a specific proposal to edit the be nice page to show examples of how you can drop language that isn't necessary and can be perceived as belittling and hostile. The problem with your answer is you dropped words out of the example to make it ok. "Did you even read the help??" conveys a slightly different message that isn't necessary, saying "did you read the help? It mentions x x...y....z" is fine. One is belittling, one isn't, While people do need to be thick skinned, we should try and raise the bar where we can Commented Sep 28, 2016 at 5:16
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    Your comment embodies the essential problem with this approach. So you are planning to define a sentence as rude if it contains the word "even", but not if it doesn't, as rude if there are two question marks, but not if there is one? What team of lawyers is going to parse the new rules and apply them? As mentioned in my answer and elsewhere in the thread, we already have a perfectly good mechanism called flagging. Do you think that system is somehow dysfunctional?
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 28, 2016 at 5:20
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    Actually my example shows that if you can't tell the difference between what is belittling and what isn't, then a guideline is useful. They aren't rules, they are a guideline, no lawyers needed. Examples of how you can improve your language.... there's already links above which have some good examples. Flagging is still there, but it's very after the fact kind of response. This isn't about enforcement but guidance. Commented Sep 28, 2016 at 5:27
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    Understood, but your question as stated is "should we add examples to the be nice page". Few people would object on principle to adding useful information to the page, but we're going to get stuck when we try to figure out what examples to add to the page, because that will require us to actually adjudicate what we want to consider to be nice or not, and except for really egregious examples involving profanity and ad hominem attack (which are already covered), I can't see a consensus forming even around something as simple as whether "Did you even read the manual??" is rude.
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 28, 2016 at 5:51
  • no one got stuck working out what level to give certain abilities to. Its not really that complicated. In one of the Questions linked to by Petter there was already some pretty good examples of language you'd instantly recognize from SO that has much better ways of saying it. Commented Sep 28, 2016 at 20:46

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