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I just stumbled upon this tag on meta:

Stack Overflow doesn't care what shape or colour a user is. And since Stack Overflow / Stack Exchange is quite publicly impartial about what gender a user is, should we still have this tag around?

At this moment, it has only 8 questions, none of which really seem to be harmed by removal of the tag. (Since it's very clear what those questions are asking)

Notice that we don't have tags for sexuality or religion, either. Why should we have one for gender?

I propose the removal of the tag, since gender is irrelevant on the Stack Exchange sites.

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  • 10
    Gender is irrelevant on the main subject Q&As themselves, but the fact that they had to state this explicitly must mean something, right?
    – BoltClock
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:16
  • 5
    Burninate it. I don't care if you're Krombopulos Michael or some Canadian. Sep 23, 2016 at 13:20
  • 6
    How does gender become relevant on meta, @BoltClock? If there's harassment going on, it's harassment. It doesn't matter if it's about gender, sexuality, religion or whatever.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:20
  • 6
    While I agree (wholeheartedly) that gender is irrelevant on (most) Stack Exchange sites... There can be legitimate cases where gender becomes an issue that should/can be brought to Meta. Yes, it's clear what the questions are talking about, but that can be the case for a lot questions on Main, too. Do we get rid of the Java tag just because it's clear from the code and environment that the OP is using Java? (Note that I don't actually care if the tag is removed, just making sure this isn't done out of pure annoyance with the recent posts on gender.)
    – Kendra
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:20
  • 2
    @Kendra: Notice that we don't have tags for sexuality or religion, either. Why should we have one for gender?
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:21
  • 4
    @Cerbrus: I'm guessing it has something to do with exactly which groups of people are being marginalized, or that different groups of people are harassed in different ways (I don't know, how many different ways can you be a jerk to someone that don't apply to just anyone)?
    – BoltClock
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:22
  • 4
    @Cerbrus My point is more that tags are for classification. If we start having a lot of religion based harassment at Stack Overflow (I highly doubt we will anytime soon.) Then it could make sense to have that tag for classifying the discussions around the issues. How religious harassment is seen/handled/whatever can be different than how gender based harassment is. Same with Sexuality. Though I don't see that happening anytime soon, either.
    – Kendra
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:24
  • 4
    It would be, at best, an unwelcome tag on meta. In the Real World programmers do have to deal with their users having a gender and those users don't post to SO. Sep 23, 2016 at 13:24
  • 3
    I'm resisting the urge to tag this question with [gender] Sep 23, 2016 at 14:01
  • 3
    If you really don't want to see discussions related to gender then you should want to keep the tag around so you can use -[gender] to avoid seeing them.
    – BSMP
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:34
  • 1
    How can I revivify this request in light of recent discussion?
    – jpmc26
    Mar 13, 2019 at 23:36

6 Answers 6

42

There are frequently discussions about gender on Meta Stack Overflow.

Some people don’t like those discussions. It is, however, generally undisputed that most of them are on topic.

Because those discussions are connected by the common theme of gender, it is perfectly reasonable to tag them. Because that is kind of what tags are there for: connect different discussions with a common theme, so they can be categorized and searched for purposes of research.

Removing the tag would cause active harm to the discoverability of those discussions, and hence, would make the site worse.

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    And why is that? Why has no-one felt the need to ask "Measuring the participation of religious people on Stack Overflow"? Because religion, like gender, is irrelevant on SO. I think that the fact the tag exists acts as validation for people debating whether or not to ask about it.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:45
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    But do you really want to "search for purposes of research" the gender tag? Sep 23, 2016 at 13:45
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    @GillBates absolutely. Imagine a complaint on SO being ignorant of some gender-related issue; insulting female users; using gender-exclusive language; and many more. In that situation, being able to point to previous discussion is vital. Or imagine someone considering raising the issue for some reason, but doing research first. Why should we take away the #1 tool to discover other discussions about the topic? That seems insane.
    – Pekka
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:46
  • *ignorant, not irrelevant. Edited.
    – Pekka
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:48
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    @Cerbrus Gender, religion and sexuality simply are not equivalent, you can't keep referring to the lack of the other two to justify removal of the first. In general, nobody can tell your sexuality or religion based on your name or profile photo. Obviously there are exceptions, but I think we can agree that in general this is true. However, using you real name or a photo is enough for people to make immediate assumptions about your gender, which can influence their behavior towards you. This (again, generally) doesn't happen with religion or sexuality.
    – user229044 Mod
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:58
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    Cerbrus - It does matter as long as other users behave differently to you based on the gender they assume you to be. Don’t get me wrong: I think we’re overall, mostly a pretty clean, cool place for users of all genders, and a good number of the „you’re treating me like crap because I’m a girl“ complaints I’ve seen around here are best answered by „we treat everyone like crap around here“. Still, to pretend it is not an issue at all, or to suggest we shouldn’t discuss the topic here? I don’t follow your line of thought here
    – Pekka
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:58
  • Re religion and sexuality - I’ve so far seen one complaint about religious discrimination on here in 7 years and it was nonsense. Sexual orientation-wise, I can remember no discussions at all. Gender-wise,there’s plenty. That’s why we have a tag for the latter but not for the former.
    – Pekka
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:59
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    @Pekka웃: My point is that discussions about harassment should be about harassment. Gender doesn't matter in those cases. For the remaining (~4?) questions, I really don't see the point of having the tag around.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:00
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    Cerbrus - again, gender has a tag because it’s a thing. The day religion starts becoming a thing (possibly never, for the reasons @meagar points out), it’ll get a tag because it’ll be a thing. Until then, gender gets to exist but religion doesn’t. I don’t see what problem we’re trying to solve here.
    – Pekka
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:01
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    @Cerbrus you are still assuming that every use of the gender tag is about harassment. It should go without saying that gender and harassment are not equivalent tags. It would be ridiculous for us to, say, make "gender" a tag synonym for "harassment".
    – user229044 Mod
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:03
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    @Cerbrus You don't think it's useful to differentiate between questions about one user being harassed because of some action they took personally, versus and entire gender being harassed because of their gender? "Discussions about harassment should be about harassment" can still stand true, independently of whether they are also discussions about gender.
    – user229044 Mod
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:05
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    @meagar: No, I don't. Harassment is harassment, and should (imo) be met with 0 tolerance, regardless of the subject.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:07
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    @Cerbrus That's fine (if not somewhat tautological) and I agree that harassment is bad, but again, that isn't mutually exclusive with discussions about gender or gender-based harassment.
    – user229044 Mod
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:09
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    @Pekka웃 - really enjoyed your comment above "you’re treating me like crap because I’m a girl“ complaints I’ve seen around here are best answered by „we treat everyone like crap around here“ - as someone new to SO, it really made me smile.
    – Katie
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:30
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    @Katie When everyone is harassed equally, no one will be.
    – user229044 Mod
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:50
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Stack Overflow aims at being gender impartial/neutral.

Just like it aims at being bug free (I guess).

It doesn't mean there can't be valid question regarding those topics, for example Ways Stack Overflow is effective at providing a gender-neutral experience.

It's a valid tag, even if we can hope it will be less and less relevant and used.

In my opinion Stack Overflow does a pretty good job at it, but breaking the thermometer wouldn't help. Let's just wait for it to being useless and forgotten, and let's ensure the previously asked (and answered) questions on that topic can easily be found when the need arises.

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    Then why don't we have tags for sexuality or religion? Since harassment can also occur on those subjects.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:22
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    The reason SO is gender neutral is because it shouldn't care about gender. The site has nothing to do with gender and thus the tag should be removed.
    – Andrew Li
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:24
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    @Cerbrus We have no tag because nobody felt there were necessary, which isn't the case for gender related questions. Just shutting off people caring is the wrong solution. The right solution is to answer and prove there's no problem. Sep 23, 2016 at 13:24
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    @Cebrus Then why don't we have tags for sexuality or religion? because discussions about gender pop up every now and then, and about the other two topics, much more rarely so, if ever?
    – Pekka
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:41
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    @Pekka웃: And why is that? Why has no-one felt the need to ask "Measuring the participation of religious people on Stack Overflow"? Because religion, like gender, is irrelevant on SO. I think that the fact the tag exists acts as validation for people debating whether or not to ask about it.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:43
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    @Cerbrus: You're gonna have to ask the community and the industry at large - outside of SO - why people keep making such a big deal out of gender and not religion in the first place.
    – BoltClock
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:49
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    @Cerbrus You constantly return to the "why don't we have religion/sexuality tags because harassment" argument, but it's not a good argument. You're assuming the only use of the [gender] tag is to discuss issues of harassment, and the presence or absence of one tag has nothing to do with the others. Outside of the narrow scope of harassment, what does religion have to do with gender? It's a false equivalence.
    – user229044 Mod
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:50
  • @BoltClock: why do we tolerate people making a "big deal" out of it, here?
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:51
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    @meagar: What I'm trying to say is that there's too much "relevance" attributed to "gender". Having the tag here is saying as much as "Yea, gender discussions are relevant on meta".
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:52
  • @Cerbrus: We don't, but that's not going to stop discussions from happening.
    – BoltClock
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:56
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    For the record I'm also tired of seing gender discussed over and over in some social medias related to our industry. But we won't settle the question by making it more difficult for questions to be found, or even by dismissing them. I'm not sure whether people should be so concerned but fact is many are. Sep 23, 2016 at 13:57
  • @DenysSéguret: I think that's probably a fair conclusion.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:03
  • Agree! I enjoyed the post you linked to as well. This tag will only become irrelevant when you can see a lot more women who are open about it (from their avatar and name), right now that just isn't the case. The most recent survey said there were only 6% women on SO and until that matches the industry, it is a relevant topic.
    – Katie
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:06
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    @Katie: SO is a site that has users. It doesn't matter if said user is male, female, or somewhere in between. Why does the tag become irrelevant when we see more women? You're not implying SO is biased against women, are you? (I'm not offended, just want to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying)
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:10
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    @Cerbrus - it would show that things are healthy and would eventually move into irrelevance, it is just hard to be in such a minority and I would like women to feel comfortable coming forward if something happens to them on SO
    – Katie
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:16
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Gender is indeed irrelevant on Stack Overflow.

Gender is not irrelevant to discuss on Meta. I see other answers* are arguing the case that the discussions are on-topic and therefore the tag is fine. But is that enough to keep the tag?

Well, there are already guidelines for when to remove a tag, let's look at those, shall we?

Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous?

I don't think any of us are going to argue that the tag does not describe the discussions it's applied to. Yes, the description may also appear in the title and text of the post, and it will almost always be obvious from these that the question is about gender. But do we remove from a question just because it is clear the question is about Java? No!

Tags are for classification. Whether the post makes it clear what the topic is is irrelevant to whether the tag is useful.

Is the concept described even on-topic for the site?

Discussions of gender issues that come up on Stack Overflow are on-topic here, provided they are constructive questions. Discussions of how Stack Overflow tries to remain gender neutral are definitely on topic, as it is about Stack Overflow and how it is moderated. Likewise, questions about why a gender field is not on the profile is on topic. So we can have on-topic discussions about gender on Meta Stack Overflow.

Does the tag add any meaningful information to the post?

Debatable. Sure, it says the discussion is about gender. That should be obvious from the title and text of the post, in most cases.

All I can see that it adds that is meaningful is it makes discussions about gender on Stack Overflow easier to find, which is what tags are for in the first place. This can be useful for research.

Say I want to research how certain programming sites handle the gender issue. The gender tag will make the a lot easier and help not grab posts that mention gender but are not about gender. Likewise, if I want to create a discussion on Meta about gender, I may wish to research previous discussions first to ensure my topic has not been thoroughly covered already.

Does it mean the same thing in all common contexts?

I don't think any of us here will argue much about the meaning of "gender."

Alright, so at most we have a failure rate of 1/4. Not a huge failure rate.

Does the tag get in the way or cause issues? I don't think it does. Is the tag very small? Yes. 8 questions is not a lot.

That alone is not a reason to burninate a tag! We don't burn tags because they are small or have little traffic. We would not, say, remove the tag just because it has only a few questions. We burn tags because they do not fit the purpose of tags, are ambiguous, or are causing problems. That people bring on-topic discussions to Meta and you are tired of seeing them does not mean they are causing problems.

Yes, these repeated gender discussions can get tedious, annoying, and in some cases heated. That does not make the tag a bad tag.

TL;DR: Yes, gender should not be brought up on Stack Overflow. It's on topic on Meta, the tag is causing no harm, and a tag only having a few questions does not mean it needs to be removed.


* Yes, I see ryanyuyu covered these points in their answer as well, but I read their message as slightly different than mine. And it doesn't hurt two have two takes on the checklist.

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The gender tag's mere existence can help encourage real discussion when problems arise. As much as we the community (and Stack Exchange in general) uphold the idea of equality and gender blindness, that's still not quite the reality, especially considering the gender imbalance in programming.

Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. Because of this, I believe it's important to keep the gender tag as a security blanket. Having productive ways to express oneself is absolutely vital in getting new groups of people fully integrated into the community. That's the function the gender tag fills on MSO.

In addition to all the social aspects of the tag, I don't think the tag is inappropriate for any of the regular reasons that tags are burninated. This tag doesn't the requirements in the checklist for burnination:

Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous?

Yes, this tag accurately describes questions it's applied to in a very clear way.

Is the concept described even on-topic for the site?

Yes. Previous discussions about gender-related problems and etiquette have been productive here on MSO.

Does the tag add any meaningful information to the post?

IMO this tag does add meaningful context to posts when used correctly. For example, gender-based harassment has different causes than other kinds of trolling. Trolls know that they're doing something wrong, but certain gender-related biases can be too ingrained for people to realize that they're messing up.

Does it mean the same thing in all common contexts?

Yes

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  • ... Dang you, I kept getting interrupted typing up answers to the checklist! Though I would argue the purpose of the tag is not "as a security blanket" but as a means of classifying the previous discussions. Which is, after all, the entire purpose of tags: To classify posts so they may be more easily found later based on a common theme.
    – Kendra
    Sep 23, 2016 at 14:27
  • Ah yes great minds yet again Kendra. Although I do stick to the "security blanket" idea just from a sociology standpoint. It's often an understated component of community dynamics. But yes, our checklists seem to match.
    – ryanyuyu
    Sep 23, 2016 at 15:05
  • You know, I'm almost starting to wonder if you're my long lost twin or something. ;) From a sociology standpoint, that makes sense, yes. But that's still not the purpose of tags. If that was the only reason to keep the tag around, I would be on Cerbrus' side of the argument and say get rid of it. It's great and all... But it's just not what tags are for.
    – Kendra
    Sep 23, 2016 at 15:08
  • Fair enough. And I guess the MSO voting reflects that distinction. And I don't think I have a twin... but that could be movie material.
    – ryanyuyu
    Sep 23, 2016 at 15:12
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Gender is irrelevant to Stack Overflow content, but not to meta.

"don't care about gender"? Really?

This is the type of crap that leads to industry members being labelled as "tech bros". Perhaps OP should have written "I don't care about gender" because we certainly do.

We care.

Of course we care about gender, it is discussed often, it shows up in the surveys for a reason, and there has even been outreach in order to promote gender issues. We just don't judge based on gender, content is supposed to reign supreme here and it does for the most part. However, that doesn't mean that content is the only concern that the community deals with.

Gender has been a concern raised by community members recently, and snuffing that out with the usual disregard for content that burnination entails (often not much more than just the meta effect) is doing that content a disservice.

as a topic of discussion is on-topic at Meta Stack Overflow, and as a result the tag itself should remain.

I think it is important to step back from the narrow scope of only gender, and look at community as a whole. Community is quintessential at Stack Overflow.

Stack Overflow is you

Jeff Atwood once said, repeatedly, in a gracious blog post about honoring fellow peers in the programming field. If a topic is important to the community then it needs to be taken seriously, because the community (you) are the reason that Stack Overflow works so well, and sometimes we need to have discussions to make sure that community is healthy.

This is the scary part, the great leap of faith that Stack Overflow is predicated on: trusting your fellow programmers. The programmers who choose to participate in Stack Overflow are the "secret sauce" that makes it work. You are the reason I continue to believe in developer community as the greatest source of learning and growth. You are the reason I continue to get so many positive emails and testimonials about Stack Overflow. I can't take credit for that. But you can.

I learned the collective power of my fellow programmers long ago writing on Coding Horror. The community is far, far smarter than I will ever be. All I can ask -- all any of us can ask -- is to help each other along the path.

-Jeff Atwood (Co-Founder of Stack Overflow)

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    Alright. You obviously disagree with one another. While discussion is welcome, resorting to discrediting and pulling quotes out of context is not a thing we want. You have your opinion, and he has his, make yours clear and have the community decide. Sep 23, 2016 at 21:35
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    @MadaraUchiha - Don't you think you may be a little too biased to be actioning this?
    – Travis J
    Sep 23, 2016 at 21:49
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    This is a thoughtful and decent post - thanks Travis. As a community, we should not be afraid of a little introspection, even if it means sometimes we could do better.
    – halfer
    Sep 23, 2016 at 22:59
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    @TravisJ I don't. I have no strong opinions on this matter, and I've spoken with both you and Cerbrus before. I'm not favoring anyone here, and, frankly, I think you're being overly hostile. I'm going to back off though, if you strongly feel I'm wrong, you have the knowledge and means to escalate. Sep 24, 2016 at 0:17
0

It would be worth burninating on the main site, but I think we should keep it here on Meta. Some discussions are about gender, and that's OK, regardless of how they turn out.

I agree that we shouldn't care about gender, and most people do not, but some people wish to talk about this in the context of Stack Overflow, and that's fine. Having the tag does not pre-suppose the outcome of such discussions, and meanwhile we might as well apply the correct taxonomy.

In relation to other potential tags (e.g. sexuality and religion) they can be created if someone feels that their Meta question is related to those themes. Indeed, I have already asked a question about religion! I will refrain from retagging it though, as that might be considered a bit cheeky just to prove a point :-p.


I wonder if there is another broader question here, which is whether gender questions are on-topic. I believe they are, and since moderators have reopened such discussions after they've been closed with undue haste, I think we can be pretty sure they are. Stack Exchange Inc has been pretty cool about gender discussions so far (and they're paying for the server time!).

For what it is worth, I don't think the existence of a tag hugely affects the topicality of a theme - gender should be a permitted subject of discussion regardless of whether we have a tag for it.


It has also been said that this tag should be deleted on the basis that there aren't many questions using it. As it happens, I think there are more questions that should be using it, but aren't - at least some of these, for example.

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    "but some people wish to talk about this in the context of Stack Overflow, and that's fine": By that logic, any tag can be valid.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:36
  • @Cerbrus: I guess so. I'd say any tag that is reasonably pertaining to an on-topic Meta discussion is valid. Not found a use for unicorns yet, but there's still time!
    – halfer
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:38
  • @halfer: Assuming the discussion is on-topic. Since there are only 8 questions since the tag was first used, is it really?
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:40
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    Are you asking me whether discussions about gender are on-topic in general, @Cerbrus? If so, then I would say yes. Moderators have several times reopened such questions when they have been closed in some haste.
    – halfer
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:42
  • I'd say no. Since they're often about harassment, or other issues where gender is irrelevantly brought in.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:44
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    We are in disagreement then @Cerbrus. I wonder, is the real question about whether gender discussions are on topic here? If so, would you consider modifying your Q title?
    – halfer
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:45
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    This is not about whether or not gender discussions are on-topic. Don't make this about that.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 23, 2016 at 13:49
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    @Cerbrus: If gender discussions are on-topic for MSO, why would we feel the need to remove a tag for them? Sep 23, 2016 at 15:38
  • @NicolBolas what Cerbus want to say is that is not any more special that other topics that can be discussed on meta.
    – Braiam
    Sep 23, 2016 at 17:03
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    There's a lot of topics that aren't more special than other topics and they have tags. Why is this topic special?
    – ivarni
    Sep 23, 2016 at 17:51
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    @Braiam: As ivarni said, why is this tag being singled out? The purpose of a tag is to be able to categorize the various questions/discussions around specific topics. If a topic is a legitimate topic for MSO, then having a tag for questions/discussions about that topic is perfectly reasonable. And therefore, if such a tag exists, it shouldn't be deleted because some people don't care about it. Sep 23, 2016 at 18:48
  • @NicolBolas Have you heard of the "Streisand effect"? Have you heard of another less special topic that has a tag? Can you mention examples? Of course not. plagiarism is a serious problem, has a tag and is probably the only example that you can't find anywhere in the UI and most users deal with. What makes "genre" more special than rude or flags?
    – Braiam
    Sep 23, 2016 at 19:06
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    @Braiam: "Have you heard of the "Streisand effect"?" Yes. The Streisand effect is when an attempt to remove something instead gives it more publicity that it would have had otherwise, ironically causing more people to know about it than would have had nothing been done at all. I don't know how that applies to this tag. Sep 23, 2016 at 19:24
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    @Braiam: "Can you mention examples?" Tags based on things not in the UI? Sure: "new-users"; "etiquette"; "canonical"; "tag-disambiguation"; "help-improvement"; "old-questions"; "clean-up"; "burninate-system"; "languages"; "quality-improvement"; "outsourcing"; "copycat-sites"; "legal"; "self-promotion"; "rules". I can keep going, but I think my point is clear. Sep 23, 2016 at 19:30
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    @Braiam: I don't use queues, so I don't know what goes on in them. What about the other dozen+ tags that I mentioned which don't have UI elements? Is there an "etiquette" queue I don't know about? We have many MSO tags that are about social conventions, with many questions/discussions in them. There's no point in denying this fact. Sep 23, 2016 at 19:51

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