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I've seen two people chased off on Meta, in the last day or so, and I wonder if I might bring them to people's attention. I am not sure a mod report is the most appropriate approach, since the following modes have, I think, become rather normalised to us regulars. The purpose here is to foster some discussion on how we can smooth our abrasive edges.

I should say I bring this theme knowing that I can be accidentally sharp too, and at various times people have pulled me up on it. May that continue.

Incident 1

A user approached Meta to ask about how to make their question more on-topic. Another user gave a substantial answer, and included this:

There is an entire conversation on turd polishing that applies to this question just as much.

So, Meta to new user: your question is excrement.

OK, perhaps we've just forgotten that we'd not say this stuff if we were in the same room as them. So I thought I'd bring it to the poster's attention, especially given that many of our experienced users have a fine history of handling criticism well. Unfortunately that did not go well.

Unfortunately there are a number of posts in Meta that are scatologically inclined, and we've forgotten that sometimes our language lands like a hammer to the head. Let's remember this please.

Incident 2

In a discussion about the differences of English dialects around the world, and how to advise speakers whose first language is not English, this comment came up:

In the post you mentioned, were you complaining about the use of "lakhs" and "crores"? A lot of Americans I know, who bother to expose themselves to various international environments, know these terms perfectly well. If you don't know them, educate yourself; it should take about a 5-second Google search. As the Indian economy grows at 8%/year, and Indian IT companies expand their world-wide market share, you may soon be hearing such terms more often than you would like.

I think that this contains the implications that the person it is aimed at "can't be bothered" to do something - i.e. they are lazy, and that they are ill-educated.

In both cases the users deleted their content and left.


Since we like Meta posts to have explicit questions, here they are:

How can we be nice here too? Do Meta users need to be better at hearing criticism when we have accidentally crossed the line? Is it OK for established users to offer feedback on tone to users who are inclined towards speaking sharply?

Addendum

Now that the discussion has taken shape, a few additional thoughts:

  • "Be nice" is not intended to be about censorship - my intention here is to encourage culture change
  • I'd like to encourage an atmosphere of being more willing to accept civil criticism, especially amongst established users, if the community is generally amenable to this
  • A few contributors seem to be fairly resolute in their attachment to a Torvalds-like ability to speak plainly, and it is mainly to this group that this theme is addressed - can we agree that one person's "plain" is another person's "brusque"?
  • I am not looking for a substantial change - as one answer has it, "your question is a turd" can be replaced with "your question does not meet guidelines X and Y"
  • The incidents that prompted this question were from high-rep to low-rep users, and it is this power differential that I am concerned about. From a high-rep (and in-group position), new users will perceive brusqueness (and obvious rudeness) as bullying. The upshot of this, I think, is that established users sometimes need to take a bit more care - they are perceived as speaking from an elevated position.

My core theme is, of course, that users who have a complaint and are coming to Meta to air it are generally doing the right thing, even if the answer is that their question needs a complete rewrite. We need to encourage more of them to do so, and if that gets us a reputation as a slightly more approachable lot, that's great!

Thanks to all contributors so far.

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    RE: "lakhs" and "crores": Sorry, I can't be bothered to learn every English name for every foreign unit out there. Frankly, such words have no place on SO. Use international units instead. (Metric ftw)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 8:49
  • 5
    @Cerbrus: yeah, agreed on that - I've written about avoiding them elsewhere where possible.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 8:52
  • 13
    There must be a better way to channel the enormous amount of negative energy that is constantly generated by a few outlier comments. Maybe somebody can figure out how to use it to power the SE web servers, carbon impact matters you know. Do focus on what this site is all about, it is only Q+A that matters. It is provided by people, bummer, such fallible creatures. Crap happens. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 8:56
  • 32
    @Hans I wouldn't mind a few outlier comments, but it's way more than that unfortunately. On Meta, with clueless new users, some form of abrasive reception is almost guaranteed - a reception that according to the rules of our gang here is totally not to be taken personally, etc. etc. but to any normal person, all too often, the first impression is one of hostility.
    – Pekka
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:09
  • 15
    I see the users at meta pretty consistently trying to be helpful, like they are at SO. Maybe my glass is always half-full, the kind of character-flaw you need to contribute to SO consistently perhaps. Why the norms of Q+A should be dispensed with completely (no research effort, unclear, not useful) or why such comments are somehow not subject to the normal flagging when they appear at meta is not obvious. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:44
  • 60
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Walking into Stack Overflow is rather like walking into a locals-only bar.
    – Matthew
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 13:18
  • 12
    I'm all for being far more constructive on meta - but let's also not forget that "polishing a turd" is just an expression. When I say "screw this" I don't go looking for a flat-head screwdriver. I highly doubt the conversation directed to was about how to literally polish a sample of excrement to a high-shine finish, and I have the same level of doubt that any offence was meant on a personal level by the comment - but I can also see how it can be taken that way across the internet and so we should be aware of these things. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 13:40
  • 18
    "A lot of Americans I know" That's always a funny argument. As if these people really think that the few people they know have any statistical significance :D.
    – Tom
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 14:09
  • 8
    @MatthewTaylor: If one comes in here demanding answers, being stubborn, then yea... However, if you show some effort, "try to fit in", the locals can be a great bunch of people.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 14:19
  • 17
    I can't make sense of nothing in this discussion. The "be nice" isn't above the "be honest", and honestly the truth hurts, especially when it's something we don't want to hear. Their questions were perceived as crap, we made them know.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 15:51
  • 12
    ".. deleted their comments and dropped out of the conversation .." – yeah that was me. I'm not inclined to argue with someone who feels quantity always trumps quality. Anyway, since my comments were seriously considered by the targeted person (our own @halfer here), I saw no harm in bailing out of that particular sub-discussion.
    – Jongware
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 15:54
  • 8
    The purpose here is not to focus excessively on the two Meta users here really? Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 16:00
  • 21
    Personally, I'd much prefer having someone call my post "crap" than giving me some kind of sugar-coated passive-aggressive Great question, but could use some tweaks. Any quixotic crusade to make Meta conform to someone's personal idea of "nice" does not have the remotest chance of success. I really don't think we need vigilantes monitoring conversations between third parties for alleged violations of civility. Questions/answers/comments one thinks are rude/abusive should be flagged and possibly closed. The terms "quite uninformed" or "educate yourself" hardly fall into that category.
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 3:04
  • 21
    @torazaburo: If a question is crap, the last thing I'd (personally) say, is: "Great question, but..." Better would be: "This question is in violation of SO's quality guidelines. See <links> etc..." <-- still basically saying the question's crap, without attacking the OP, and without praising the OP where it's not warranted.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 6:49
  • 7
    @torazaburo: Yea, we can't always prevent feelings from being hurt. However, calling a question a violation of the site's rules is more objective than calling said question "crap". In my opinion, subjectiveness has no place in moderation of a site like this.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 8:10

8 Answers 8

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The substance of these comments is often not wrong - quite a few questions are just utterly unsalvageable.

But of course, calling a user's question a turd is not in line with the be-nice policy, and often quite counterproductive to what we seek to achieve here on Meta - to educate users to better themselves.

Such a comment is not constructive or rude and you should flag it as such.

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    It depends on how it's called a turd. If it's just a link to the "Don't polish a turd" discussion, it could be fine. Does it imply it's a turd, or does it warn someone not to polish one, or does it literally call the question a turd? There's the difference.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:01
  • 9
    @Cerbrus Obviously, but stuff like "Your question is a turd so you should quit trying to polish it" or similar are out of line, and I see them cropping up from time to time.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:03
  • 7
    Calling a question a "turd" is often much kinder than calling it what it deserves. It's a friendly, low-impact, but punchy way of saying "low quality". What would you prefer we call low quality questions?
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 14:27
  • 12
    @torazaburo Low quality? Very low quality? Unsalvagably low quality? I don't think using crude language lends itself well to this site.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 15:43
  • 6
    I fail to see how using turd polishing as an analogy to say "as long as you are asking the same thing, it will be off-topic no matter how much you edit it" is not constructive or rude. The answer referenced by the answer referenced here also goes on to state that if it is actually a pearl covered in a layer of turd, then polish away. Which the answer referenced here also states implicitly. If the user were to not ask an overly broad unclear primarily opinion based resource request question then it may very well be on-topic, but without asking a fundamentally different question, it is pointless
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 16:51
  • 5
    Oh no, you used the term "educate", which implies that the users are poorly educated to begin with. Strongly tempted to flag this answer as rude/abusive.
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 3:56
  • @torazaburo: "educate" in a supportive context, as here, I think is fine - context matters, of course. Ultimately you and I find ourselves on different sides of this debate, which is fine: I think we need to make more of an effort on Meta, whereas you want the right to be brusque. That is your right, and ultimately it is up to the community if any cultural shift is to be made.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 8:33
  • 1
    @halfer At the risk of splitting hairs, and continuing this debate far beyond its expiration date, the word "educate" in ANY CONTEXT implies a prior state of being less educated, so however used it runs at least some risk of at least some overly sensitive folks imagining it is to at least some extent criticizing them for being ill-educated.
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 9:03
  • True enough @torazaburo, so I think it depends on how it is couched. I don't think it is possible to measure whether someone is over-sensitive - let's just be willing to accommodate people when they pipe up. I have to do the same, and have done!
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 9:41
  • 6
    In general, my idea when leaving these comments is to get through to people. I've found Its more likely to get through if you use neutral language and don't pass blame even indirectly.
    – Magisch
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 9:45
63

First of all, "Be nice" still applies here on Meta, just as much as it does on main.

We shouldn't start walking on egg shells too much, though. If a question or answer discussed in a meta Q/A is crap, you should (constructively) try to make the owner of said Q/A aware of that.

For example:

"@user: Your question is in severe violation of SO's quality guidelines. See "How to ask" for some guidelines on how to improve your question."

A comment like that is perfectly fine. You're still basically telling the user his question is crap, but the comment is constructive.

That said, I don't think it's possible to write a single answer to cover all possible cases for this issue.
As for turds, it depends on how the Q/A is called "a turd". If it's just a link to the "Don't polish a turd" discussion, it could be fine.
Does it imply it's a turd? Does it warn someone not to polish one? Or does it literally call the question a turd? There's the difference.

There will always be users that can't take criticism, no matter how constructive and helpful you try to be.
If a user goes "screw it", and deletes their content, there's not much you can do. You tried to help them improve their content's quality, and they're not interested.
In my (personal / limited) experience, users like that usually just come to meta to rant, and aren't interested in opinions that differ from theirs.

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    Mostly agree with this - that your quoted block doesn't mention "turds" at all is a significant improvement over the answer that prompted this Meta-question. I agree about ranters in general, but that's not what happened in this case - they approached with a very constructive attitude, and desisted when they were smacked down.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 12:04
  • 6
    @halfer inb4 turd is banned Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 19:56
  • Thanks @Andras, I'd not seen that one. I agree with the post that suggested that term seem to attracting a more unpleasant tone of late, so gets my vote.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 20:09
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    I'm not in favor of banning these terms at all, including "rep whore". We don't have to be PC everywhere. A blanket ban on those words is just censorship, while it really should be judged on a case-by-case basis.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 6:56
  • 17
    Suppressing free speech, what can go wrong? Well, the very thing this Q is about. It used to be easy to tell a user that his question is a turd before the changes in the summer of 2013. Now SO users have to resort to something else, "too broad" is common. The user has no idea what that could mean, comes to meta and gets exposed to the unfiltered version of The Truth from people like Mr. Hubris. Ugh, what a bad idea. Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 13:08
  • 10
    @Hans: no, this question is not about censorship. It's about encouraging long-term Meta users to be more positive around new users who are approaching the site to ask why their post was closed/downvoted. Certainly, we have no need for scatological terms and other insults when offering a response to such users - merely show what guidelines have been infringed and/or an assessment of whether their question is rescuable.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 15:11
  • 3
    That wasn't about your question, merely about what happened to trigger the question. I already tuned out, somewhat evident that you have a beef with some meta users. Of course none of the other meta users are going to assume that your request could possibly apply to them. And given the likelihood that those "some" are going to ignore it, it doesn't apply to anybody :) Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 16:30
  • 2
    @Hans: the instances that triggered this don't really matter, in the sense that what is important is what we learned from them - how criticism is made matters. Yes, I sense there is some resistance to this theme: some people fear a coming censorship, some people are furious by default and don't wish to calm down, some people reserve the right to be "honest" to the point of actionable rudeness, some people don't care about people outside of the high-rep group. But I think posts like this might sway some people - you have to start somewhere.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 17:50
  • Anyway, I don't have an ongoing beef with those posters :-) - they said their replies here, we mostly disagreed, and everyone moved on.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 17:53
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Having missed the drama that caused this spur of feelings: I think meta suffers from both an in-crowd problem and extreme censorship.

To address the first point first: there are a couple of very vocal users, most of them sub-10K, who apart from grinding through the various review queues (not negating the usefulness of that) barely participate on main. They "live" on meta, so to say, but in doing so perhaps distantiate themselves from the actual action that this website is about.

Yet they feel inclined to participate in every discussion about rules, tags and scope. They seem to want to be both lawmakers and executioners, putting every question that's being discussed here to the test of their rigid interpretations of the non-rigid rules that live in the dungeons which are old and forgotten meta questions.

Secondly, when a clueless user whose question was closed dares come to meta and complain, and their question sounds even the slightest bit of angry or entitled (or might I say "confused"), their question will be downvoted into oblivion, robo-close-voted and deleted before it even hits a hundred views. Alternatively, close-votes will be abused as a "I strongly disagree" vote.

That is the problem I think meta has at the moment. Not a few harsh sounding comments, which should be dealt with by mere flagging, and not upvoting it or throwing a fit about its wording.

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    "Alternatively, close-votes will be abused as a "I strongly disagree" vote." <-- That I disagree with. Close-votes seem to be interpreted as disagreement, while they often mean: "This has been discussed to death already" (In case of dupe votes). Imho, there's too much reluctance to moderate on Meta, out of fear of it being "Censorship". For the rest, +1
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 14:04
  • 1
    @Cerbrus I have no problem with duplicate votes, if they're warranted. I've seen "not about Stack Overflow" and "does not seek input" closevotes to controversial questions once too many though, and a closevote will always be followed up upon by robo-reviewers on meta, making such closevotes dangerous.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 14:06
  • I think you are right but on the wrong basis: yes, discussions get closed, but normally are by robo-reviewers (yes! on meta) that only check the close vote queue and close anything. I've filled a bug report about that.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 14:06
  • 9
    "does not seek input" votes are often used if the OP is just ranting, and plainly refuses to accept any opinion other than his own. Imo, those close-votes are very warranted. If someone asks a question on Meta, he should be open to discuss it. That includes considering opinions that differ from their own.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 14:12
  • Possibly worth noting that neither of the subject users here -- that is, those who are quoted in the question -- seem to fit your characterization: they're both in the top 0.15% by rep. (As you can see, they've both posted answers here, which are deleted.)
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 17:42
  • Is "distantiate" meant to be a portmanteau or some other kind of word play? I was tempted to edit it to "distance", but then I thought it might be intentional.
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 17:43
  • @Josh it seems to be English but indeed it is a quite literal translation of a Dutch word meaning "to distance oneself from". If the latter is the more common expression for that, feel free to edit it. Also, I'm not really addressing the harshness of the answerers or commenters in these two particular instances, but I'm addressing the meta culture towards new users in general.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 17:48
  • 1
    I've never heard the word before to my recollection, so rather than editing I'll thank you for adding to my vocabulary! Sorry for making an issue (however small) of it.
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 17:59
  • 1
    I think that this is an eloquent framing of the problem. Well done! But one thing that has eluded the community here is... how can we improve the situation you so perfectly highlight?
    – Travis J
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 18:39
  • 3
    @Travis thank you, fair point. I hope the mere presence of this post will motivate those who read it to evaluate whether what they're doing is actually best for the community. If I had a solution, I'd have posted it as a separate question instead.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 18:41
  • 1
    I'd just like to say I've experienced having close-votes abused as "I strongly disagree" votes, and it's personally driven me away from Meta. Commented Sep 8, 2016 at 1:51
20

People... I really didn't want to cause all that. I'm the user that made the question that started this.

halfer, you have asked how we can be nice here. Well, the first thing in "being nice" is: how can we "be nice" to someone that isn't "being nice" to us? Because if we can "be nice" to him, then the rest is easy.

My answer is: I profoundly respect him and respect the feeling that generated that attack. Because to him this post is righteousness. I know it may sound strange to you. But he's just defending against what he thinks is an attack. I know it isn't, but he's reading it that way. And the most important question is: Why is he defending, and how can we deal with that?

My way of dealing with it is: absorb the attack, don't respond, do your best to transform the energy of the attack inside you and then think how you would respond if it was someone you deeply loved and cared for. Respond with all the love from your heart. That is the only way possible.

Because firemen don't throw gasoline onto the fire. They throw water at it.

Use the energy of the attack to polish whatever we have that's negative inside. Use these thorns as a training to pacify yourself.

I'm not saying that is easy, or that I can do this all the time. I'm saying that this is the most useful response that we can have. The objective should be having this kind response the most times we can.

Think with the mind of the attacker. How did he get to have so many bad feelings that he reads things as attacks all the time? I may be wrong, but my view is that he was treated harshly so many times, that he said to himself: enough is enough. Or maybe he was exposed to concepts of individuality and self power; the reasons can be many.

But still: "being nice" must start with the one who's not "being nice". This way we can help everyone in the hard task of uniting, and have a better understanding of each other.

As I said in a deleted comment on the answer, I'm sure, that everyone is trying to do the right thing. Even if it doesn't appear that way.

To all: please don't see in my answer a religious way. The intention is absolutely secular.

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    "I really didn't want to cause all that" You didn't cause this.
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 17:53
  • 2
    I've made the crappy question in the first place and insisting in fixing it. I could have been less stubborn. But I really wasn't understanding what the problem was. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 17:55
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    That's an entirely separate issue from this one: asking about an SO question on Meta is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, even if it turns out the answer is "not much that can be done with it".
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 17:59
  • 10
    I have to say, given the way you were treated, and the rather aggressive language used to justify it subsequently, I am impressed at your response. We are not used to a zen-like state on Meta, nor any kind of mental judo - the practice of deflecting harmful psychological intent. Kudos.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 18:09
  • 8
    I'm not saying that I can do this all the time. Still training :D But this time I think I made it. :) Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 18:12
  • 2
    Is it wrong to see your answer in a religious way? You provided great advice on how to think through perceived attacks - this is valuable. Who cares if the ideas originated in religious thought if the advice given is sound and applicable? I'm sorry you felt you needed to protect yourself against the perception of "religiousness" - I would hope SO users are more open-minded and pragmatic than anti-religious bigotry. Commented Sep 7, 2016 at 20:08
  • 2
    Actually some of the ideias above did came from religious lines I followed in the past, from my present religion and specially from situations I was envolved in those and other places and the teaching I reaceived from these situations. But still, I really don't think SO is the place for any spiritual teachings be mentioned, because the objective of SO isn't that, the visions on this subject are the most diverse possible and people tend to see the teaching of their religions as the "only truth". Commented Sep 8, 2016 at 14:18
  • 3
    Going in that ground is a mine field. And can offend many. So im my opinion SO comments and answers in the main site and meta, should be absolutely secular. That's a form of respect too. Commented Sep 8, 2016 at 14:18
17

Oh what a tangled web we weave. Two lefts will never make a right, and neither will two wrongs.

With the first report, do I think the comment was perhaps a touch blunt and because of that perhaps offensive? Sure I do. Do I think contacting the person and suggesting that they maybe could have worded it better is a good idea, sure I do.

But after that, I fully agree with the person leaving the remark. They disagreed with you. They felt their comment was in line. At that point your choice should NOT have been to continue to harass the user in an attempt to get them to admit they were wrong. Not everyone is going to agree with your stance 100% of the time and that shouldn't give you the right to harass them. Why keep replying after he disagreed?

At that point if you have the privilege and believe strongly it was an out of line comment, remove it, or vote it down or however this works here (I am very new to these sites). But to argue with the person to get them to admit they are wrong, is self-righteous, and just as wrong. They disagreed, take action, and move on, or just move on.


Now lets address the other questions:

I think, you are vastly overcomplicating the way in which people work.

First, anyone is free to be nice. Doing so, encourages others to be nice. They see the effects that being nice has compared to that of not being nice. However should there be some way to enforce people being nice, not in my opinion. In fact, a rule such as "you must be nice" would be an impossible rule to follow, as its so incredibly subjective. However you can define what rude is and tell people don't be rude.

When it comes to people who are not nice, allow the community to naturally handle that. I promise if someone is rude to user after user - its going to have a very negative impact on their experience as a whole here and all the points in the world, won't help you if you start being rude... as its twice as easy to lose points and privileges as it is to gain them.

Honestly I have been on SO for a few days over a year, I only recently started being active. I have read COUNTLESS posts on this site, as usually my answers already exist, so no point asking. I have read thousands and thousands of Q&A's on SO, I have asked many dozens of questions. I have never once had anyone ever be rude me. It has never happened. I have never seen anyone be rude on this site (short of what I have read on meta). So all in all, I really don't think there is a need for any kind of change, as I believe the system already works and you don't fix what isn't broken.

I think you are noticing and focusing on something that is happening so rarely, its not worthy of note to be honest. I think naturally rude people will naturally weed themselves out, naturally thick people will naturally find this site not suiting to them, and those who want cut and paste code handed to them.... well I can hope eventually they also, will find this site not to their liking. Really I just think the site does what it does so well that all the problems of user rudeness and niceness, are naturally weeded out given enough time.

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    "if you have the privilege and believe strongly it was an out of line comment, remove it": Users can't remove comments that aren't their own. Only "flag" them. I also don't agree with your last paragraph. If a user comes to Meta, I expect them to be open for discussion.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:37
  • 3
    okay so flag and move on, like I said I am new here, I think we can all understand my meaning.
    – Bruce
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:39
  • 4
    I understood your meaning. I just tried to help you by informing you of the possible actions. For what it's worth, I didn't vote on this answer (yet).
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:40
  • 3
    And I certainly do appreciate the help. Figuring out points and how all this works is not an easy task. I am one of those "blunt types" myself, so sometimes my comments are not taken as intended. If that was the case, my apologies. :)
    – Bruce
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:46
  • 4
    We may have to disagree. I was respectful to this user, even though they were not respectful to me, and they did not address the core issue, which seems to me to be abusive behaviour against a new user. I would not be in favour of anyone shielding this behaviour by claiming a bully is being "harassed". They can either defend their actions, or they can't.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:46
  • 6
    I have to agree here, @halfer. After your initial comment and the reply, the discussion should have ended. Any further discussion should have been saved for a Meta post like this one.
    – user247702
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 9:49
  • 2
    "bring it here": This question is about discussions on meta.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 10:22
  • 4
    @halfer I think the problem was this: I have sometimes gently taken established members of the community to task, and to their credit they have thought about their posting/comments/language, and have undertaken to think about how to treat new users, or have apologised, or whatever. I can very well understand how this was not taken well. Nobody should try to educate others, we can only politely ask to change behavior. If the other person disagrees, that's it. Btw. I also think directly calling a question a turd is not, ehm, "optimal".
    – alain
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 13:36
  • 2
    No, this doesn't mean we can't criticize. "Calling a question a turd is not OK" is an opinion about a statement, and totally OK, but the other sentence was an opinion of the kind "others (and I) are better than you". That's a big difference.
    – alain
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 13:44
  • 6
    @halfer, so you can criticize the criticizer, but the criticizer is not allowed to criticize? I find your comments on the referenced question to be borderline offensive and harassing.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 16:22
  • 7
    @Halfer You seem to have misunderstood my comment, I was referring to your comments on Jarrod's answer referenced in this question, and how you should be allowed to criticize him personally to no end, while saying that there should be some limit on how he can criticize a post, by merely pointing to a discussion about polishing turds. Drawing a comparison between editing an unsalvageably low quality post and polishing a turd has nothing to do with whether a user is new or not. It has nothing to do with the user at all. If this isn't attempted meta censorship, I don't know what is.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 16:34
  • 3
    @halfer the user, how new their account is, how much rep they have, all have absolutely nothing to do with anything. We are constantly being to leave that out of the equation. I will never treat a new user any differently then I treat an established user. If an established user came on meta complaining about downvotes (for example), I'm going to respond in the exact same way as if it were a brand new user. If a user with 150k rep comes on demanding that their overly broad unclear primarily opinion based off-site resource request be reopened, I will respond the same regardless of rep.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 20:32
  • 3
    @TinyGiant: thanks, that represents an important part of our disagreement, then. IMO, a wide rep differential is critical in understanding the dynamics between the powerful and the powerless, and the in-group and the out-group. If a 20k user is rude to a 20k user, they have merely been rude; if a 20k is rude to a 0.5k user, they have been bullying. It's an (accidental) abuse of their (relatively) powerful position, even if they are only unicorn points.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 21:57
  • 4
    I genuinely believe, having read every comment on every answer in this topic, that the real problem is halfer is simply seeing the use of the word "turd" within an of itself as "rude and unfriendly" and I think he would have likely had a problem with the comment no matter what it said so long as it used the word turd as more than a link to a specific article about turd questions.
    – Bruce
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 16:03
  • 5
    fallacy - It's an (accidental) abuse of their (relatively) powerful position, even if they are only unicorn points., it has been said over and over, there is no powerful people on SO based on rep points. You can not demonstrate how there is one because no one can unilaterally ban, remove, censor or cause any other harm to anyone else based purely on how much rep they may or may not have, this is a fundamental flaw in your argument. You have been told this over and over but insist there is some differential that exists, there isn't. Even a duplicate hammer can be undone easily.
    – user177800
    Commented Sep 11, 2016 at 1:02
11

In regards to Incident 1:

Sigh.

I've got a handful of mentions of "polishing a turd", but I did review those and it seems like it came from the context of users editing poor questions.

Now, I don't disagree that the phrasing could come across as less abrasive, but in reality, there's a lot of questions that come through that makes it difficult to describe it as anything else. On top of that, we have lots of people making edits to questions which are wildly off topic, inappropriate, or otherwise unanswerable until the OP adds more details, yet they wonder why their contributions are downtrodden or rejected.

I won't say that I feel comfortable with users calling another person's post a turd, since that is indeed impolite and personifies the matter; instead of focusing on the question and offering constructive criticism, the user has opted to call their post a turd and cast it into the wind outright, which doesn't help the matter at all. In this context, we should look to improve our phrasing to be something significantly kinder, in the hopes that, if someone decided to take the time to post on Meta to ask for help to improve, that we actually help them improve.

However, in the context of edits, I'm not so sure we should abandon the phrase just yet. Telling someone that they're "polishing a turd" is equivalent to telling them that they're "wasting their time" or "your time is better spent doing something else" or "don't bother with it" or any other analogy you can think of here. Only in the context of edits would I want to preserve this phrasing; anything else would be fair game to be edited out of questions and flagged as inappropriate in comments.


In regards to Incident 2:

Seriously, this website is international; even though the official language used is English, there are many more measuring and counting schemes that exist out there which developers could use help with. If you don't understand the different system that is being used, that misunderstanding lies exclusively with you, and the OP shouldn't have the burden of having to translate their question even further just because you don't know their units.

While I feel as strongly as the person that left that comment, that particular comment is indeed abrasive, and is likely safe to remove. However, one standing piece of advice I'd like to leave behind there is, if a user doesn't understand a specific unit but the rest of the question is perfectly clear, then there really shouldn't be a problem since the issue with understanding lies in a single, isolated area, which the potential answerer can safely look up to ensure they're making a well-informed answer.

5
  • 1
    Alright, thanks for the considered reply, and I broadly agree with much of this. At the risk of excessively discussing the sewer featuring in the first case, I am not too worried about this phraseology used to describe the general practice of improving unsalveageable questions - it is where it is aimed as a specific question, and its author by association, that I feel troubled. I was concerned, also, that in both cases, there seemed to be a doubling down of hostility, potentially worsening the opportunity for offence to newer users.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 19:59
  • 6
    "the user has opted to call their post a turd and cast it into the wind outright" Casting a turd into the wind is never a good idea. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 20:16
  • 1
    that particular comment is indeed abrasive, and is likely safe to remove. I think there's a difference between "abrasive" and "rude or abusive", which AFAIK is the relevant criterion, although granted there is room for judgment.
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 4:23
  • 7
    "f you don't understand the different system that is being used, that misunderstanding lies exclusively with you" Not if the OP is using a non-standard system. Those are Indian names, and should be translated. In cases like that, I think it's perfectly fine to ask the OP to translate those to something every user with a basic understanding of the English language will understand.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 8, 2016 at 6:22
  • 1
    There is also the situation of someone trying to reverse a question ban - that will basically mean that there are a bunch of turds that triggered the ban. And basically they need to be polished until some semblance of a pearl is found within. Being told then that it is pointless is pretty much kicking someone that is already down.
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 9, 2016 at 12:46
-1

To answer the latest version of your question(s):

Do Meta users need to be better at hearing criticism when we have accidentally crossed the line?

Very weird question. "We" have not "accidentally" "crossed" your imaginary "line", wherever it may lie; we were on the other side of it to start with. Also, how do you define "better at hearing criticism"? It sounds like your definition is to bow down in agreement with what the niceness police say. Even assuming there was agreement that they need to be better at hearing criticism, what is your proposal for doing anything about that? Writing more posts on Meta urging niceness?

Is it OK for established users to offer feedback on tone to users who are inclined towards speaking sharply?

No. It's a waste of everybody's time. It's obnoxious and arrogant. If you don't like something, flag it for moderator attention. Go police people's conversations somewhere else.

10
  • 4
    Every morning, I wake up and I think, "Man, you know what would make Meta a betta place? More posts urging niceness." Hey, maybe if we made comments mandatory for all downvotes...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 9, 2016 at 15:10
  • @CodyGray - Same group seems to always be at the center of what people perceive as not a "betta place" (which seems to be saying no one likes small fish here). This question included.
    – Travis J
    Commented Sep 9, 2016 at 19:06
  • 2
    Thanks for providing an active example of what this question is about. Commented Sep 9, 2016 at 19:21
  • 2
    @CarrieKendall Actually, I already did--the comment quoted in the second incident was mine.
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 10, 2016 at 8:38
  • I'll make a reply to this, and I'll preface that with the hope that we can have a civil and productive conversation. I note that this answer contains open hostility and mockery, and I will need to refer to them as I make my points. My criticism should be understood as analytical rather than retaliatory, and bear in mind that I am merely motivated to improve things for newer users. I hope you're on board with that!
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 10, 2016 at 8:53
  • My original remarks to you were very minor, and yet the first reply I see from you on this topic is your now deleted question, which appeared to be deliberately inflammatory, and must have required a great deal more effort and emotional cost from you than comments like "I see your point" or "I'll think about that, thanks". I suppose it doesn't matter who you intended to hurt with paranoid or persecution complex, and there's another unfortunate salvo on display here too.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 10, 2016 at 8:54
  • 2
    We ultimately find ourselves in a paradox: you have made it clear that, as a high-rep user, you are not willing to hear criticism, except via moderator flags. And yet, when you do experience a small pea-shooter of a suggestion, you reply with an angry shotgun. If you are this sensitive, is it not possible that the targets of your words elsewhere may be also?
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 10, 2016 at 8:55
  • 1
    I am not looking to set an explicit line of acceptability - just waving a small flag to suggest that we (the whole Meta community) might communicate more often in an adult and measured fashion. Elsewhere on the web, our community enjoys a rather mixed reputation - we exhibit a technical expertise that is marred by a hostile tone that just about escapes the moderator's bar. Should we do nothing about this?
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 10, 2016 at 8:59
  • 4
    @halfer You're insisting on starting with agreement that you have a point? Maybe you didn't notice, but you in fact did not convince them of your rightness. Try working on that before calling up meta mobs or barraging people with comments. Personally, if I ever wanted to discuss someone's tone on SO, I'd first consider whether they would be receptive (e.g., because we've talked before) and then I'd invite them to chat. Hopefully, we'd both walk away with am understanding of where the other is coming from and not passing judgment. Whether they agreed with me in the end would be secondary.
    – Frank
    Commented Sep 12, 2016 at 5:59
  • @Frank: I'll think about that, thanks. I haven't deliberately called up a mob, though - the original version of this question anonymised the comments, and in my view, to invoke the Meta Effect one generally would need direct links to the question(s) involved. The two posters I referred to posted here voluntarily, and they would have remained anonymous to all but a few dedicated history-combers. I am wondering, in any case, whether the examples are a distraction - I am pointing to what I see as a general problem rather than a small number of specific ones.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 12, 2016 at 11:53
-12

Answers can be personally or generally abusive or not. Abuse aside, answers can be (generally) correct or not. Which gives four possibilities:

  1. Abusive, incorrect.
  2. Abusive, correct.
  3. Incorrect.
  4. Correct.

Presumably everybody is against #1. Also uncontroversial are #3 and #4, which are covered by upvoting & downvoting.

Which leaves #2 -- suppose the only correct answer is abusive? For the sake of argument, let's suppose it's the only correct answer ever. Some say we should tolerate the abuse, because the benefits outweigh the costs, especially if we develop reading calluses. This seems to be the way of the Linux kernel developers, Debian Linux, Eric Raymond, et al. Being as a class a bit stoical, they're less prone to notice the corresponding loss of sensitivity -- similar to how some sufferers of hearing loss unconsciously and habitually raise their voices.

I'd prefer we could somewhat automate away the function of those calluses:

  • Given a message like #2, users flag it as such, for approval by users with sufficient reputation.
  • So flagged, it then becomes editable by everyone except its abusive author, (whose technical corrections must be submitted to a queue),
  • and the less callous public can then remove the abusive portions.
  • Basically an abusive (but correct) author becomes a provisional "new user", (but retains their reputation), and just as new users typos and needless words are edited out, needless words (i.e. insults and abuse) are edited out.

NB: this is proposed as a "last resort" toleration mechanism, as a means of preventing intelligent but pathologically asocial posters from insulting their way to notoriety and isolation, and allowing them, despite their foibles, to be better appreciated for the good they do.

1
  • Interesting thoughts agc, but the transfer of ownership of posts would be a substantial change from the status quo, and that'll have an uphill struggle to gain traction. I am open to technical solutions, but I wonder if I am just seeking some culture change here, on Meta itself :-).
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 15:27

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