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I commented on this answer: https://stackoverflow.com/a/39302418/

The answer is a self-answer from a programmer upgrading from a development environment unaware of UAC to one that is. The programmer is used to running under Windows registry virtualization.

The self-answer which has been accepted proposes disabling virtualization on the entire system. Anybody who has any experience of this knows that it is a terrible idea.

I left a comment making that point in no uncertain terms. I don't want future readers getting the idea that this answer describes a sensible thing to do. That comment has been removed. Why?

I fear that we are becoming afraid of criticism for fear of upsetting users. If we suppress critical comments then we won't be able to maintain the high quality of the content on this site. One of the things that distinguishes SO from newsgroups is that SO stamps on poor advice given by people lacking in knowledge. Is that stamping on poor advice no longer acceptable behaviour?

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    When you say "in no uncertain terms", what exactly do you mean?
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 7:43
  • 6
    I can't remember the exact wording. I probably said it was a terrible idea or a crazy idea. I don't believe I was abusive but the criticism was clear and decisive. My guess is that it got flagged as rude and abusive. But I feel it was honest and direct b Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 7:44
  • 17
    Honest and direct so you weren't cuddling the OP? Shame on you ...
    – rene
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 8:46
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    Surely the comment was flagged, pretty difficult to deal with for a moderator if the criticism is technical. They weigh word usage and that has a very low threshold. They tend to pick an action that minimizes the odds for further complaints, you being a hi-rep user that knows the ropes and is unlikely to complain in general put you at a distinct disadvantage. Consider the alternative, DV the post, refresh page with F5, vote to delete. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 9:07
  • 56
    Your exact comment was: That is a crazy way to handle this. Disable virtual store? Why don't you get your environment to handle UAC. Only 10 years behind the times! Obviously you are coming from the back of the grid with Delphi 3 but that's no excuse to pretend that the last 10 years did not happen. It's not immediately obvious that's a rather verbose way of saying "Why not adapt to handle UAC?" or similar... so I can see why it'd be removed in response to a flag... Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 9:21
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    @DavidHeffernan it got flagged as not constructive - a mod reviewed it and decided to remove it. To be fair I would have done the same... I had to read it several times to identify what bit was the actual warning amid the noise (and that's from a PoV that's there's supposedly definitely one). Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 9:49
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    @Ninja I had to read the question multiple times, all the comments, the answer, and then the link to understand what was being said. Would the mod have seen anything other than my comment in isolation? Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 9:51
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    @DavidHeffernan unless there's any reason to investigate further and open the post up and try and puzzle things out (post has a lot of comment flags or post flags as well - which there wasn't in this case) then mods really only see flagged comments in isolation and if a comment doesn't look like it has any useful content it'll normally end up being removed. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 9:55
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    @ninja Kind of a shame that such decisions are taken by people lacking the information required to take the decision well. I get that mods don't have much time. But I'd taken the time to understand. It would be easier if we could get back to closing and removing such questions as NARQ. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 11:13
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    @DavidHeffernan: glad to hear you have time to spend to understand the context for flagged comments! Given that I handled 450 comments yesterday (next to a few hundred other flags), I have about 1 minute per comment per day, if I spent a full 8 hours on them. Perhaps you could help? Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:30
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    @Martijn I thought by commenting having taken time to understand was helping. I do appreciate your position. My biggest gripe is that questions such as that don't get closed and removed. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:38
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    That comment might have had an ulterior motive. Ignoring, if volunteers need to spend 8 hours of their free time a day to work down a flag queue then there's a bigger problem. Time to let SE organize another moderator election to lighten the load, won't happen unless mods speak up. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 15:19
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    @HansPassant note that I didn't say I spend 8 hours on the flag queue. I don't. But if I spent one minute on every comment flag I handled yesterday it'd have taken 8 hours. I blast through most comment flags far faster than that. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 17:16
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    @MartijnPieters and there-in lies the problem - "I blast through most comment flags far faster than that". Like Hans said if the workload is too much the mods need to speak up rather then "blasting through" not giving the flags the attention they deserve.
    – user692942
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 18:11
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    Comments being disposable and temporary to this degree is extremely worrying when we're regularly encouraged to use comments to point out dangerous suggestions in answers. Conflicting advice as usual. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 19:27

4 Answers 4

72

The comment was deleted because it was flagged as non-constructive, and I agreed.

The comment, in full:

That is a crazy way to handle this. Disable virtual store? Why don't you get your environment to handle UAC. Only 10 years behind the times! Obviously you are coming from the back of the grid with Delphi 3 but that's no excuse to pretend that the last 10 years did not happen.

I don't see much info in there that is so crucial to not delete.

Take into account we handle hundreds of comments per day, we certainly don't have time to tease out all the history and context for every single one that is flagged. Comments are ephemeral by nature, easily deleted.

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    If you can't see the information in there, you either didn't spend enough time reading it or you have a reading comprehension problem. The only superfluous bit ("noise") is the very first sentence. Consider this rephrasing: "Disabling the virtual store is a crazy way to handle this. UAC has existed for a good 10 years; you need to get your environment to handle it. Obviously you are starting from behind with Delphi 3, but that's no excuse not to start modernizing your application." Would you delete that? Do you see the information now?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:30
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    I see your edit added the boilerplate excuse about how many flags you process and how little time you have. Hmm, sorry about that. If you don't have time to do a good job, then you shouldn't be doing it. Ask the community team to hold an election if the work load is too high. I'm getting rather tired of this excuse every time a decision is questioned on Meta. It works about as well as telling your boss, "but programming is hard, difficulty by nature, mistakes are easily made."
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:32
  • 64
    @CodyGray: so why not drop the 'crazy' and 'no excuse to pretend' and the 'behind the times' attitude from the comment first. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:32
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    @CodyGray: the work load is just fine; stop getting so attached to precious comments. Really, lecturing me about reading comprehension and work-load over a dumb condescending comment? Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:33
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    Emphasis. This is crazy, it is behind the times. There's no other way to characterize it, you can just tweak on the wording. I don't see how that is relevant. There is nothing offensive in there. David doesn't say the person is crazy, he says this is a crazy way to handle the problem. He doesn't say the person is a moron, he says that their application is behind the times. How would you characterize legacy code vulnerable to SQL injection? Same principle. What I'm unattached to is capricious decisions by moderators, poorly justified about time constraints.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:34
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    @CodyGray: there are more constructive ways to word it. The flag was valid. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:35
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    We active user also are very busy and handle huge amounts of content here. Sometimes we don't have the energy to write the perfect comment. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:40
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    Sure, and I understand that too. I saw no reason to make a fuss over this; I deleted it and moved on. It was nowhere near anything we'd be concerned over. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:43
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    @David: I've had at least one accurate comment removed for being too negatively phrased. IIRC, it had a WTF or "what the hell?" in it or something. (My case was probably closer to criticism of the coder, not just the code, than your case). Just learn to keep it technical, and say things like "you should not do this". It's a small price to pay for having such a well-moderated site overall while still having it open to everyone, including people that are wrong or clueless about a lot of stuff. It is a price, and I would have liked to see this particular comment stay, but it's worth it. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 14:13
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    @DavidHeffernan: where did I criticise you for asking on Meta? I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't have done this, asking why a moderator took action is a perfectly fine reason to post here. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 15:25
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    @DavidHeffernan: sorry, but that's a rude comment, that consists mostly of accusations: That is a crazy way to handle this, Obviously you are coming from the back of the grid with Delphi 3 . While you might be on the spot with those, the point of the message gets lost among all this noise, making the comment not that useful.
    – Cristik
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 16:20
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    @DavidHeffernan It may well be crazy, but it's hardly constructive to say (paraphrased) "you're behind the times, you don't know what you're doing, and your methods are useless". Instead of using inflammatory language like that, try phrasing your comments as your opinion: "I don't think that's a good way to handle this - I believe the method is a relic of the past - perhaps you should try doing X instead". That way, your comment is less unconstructive, and less likely to be deleted.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 16:41
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    @ArtOfCode I wasn't really concerned about anybody's feelings. I was more concerned with making sure that future readers knew what a terrible idea this was. I was stating what I believed to be facts. It really is a crazy idea. I'm not from the school that says we should work extra hard to avoid hurting people's feelings. I think it's better to call out rubbish content for what it is. It was a truly spectacularly appalling idea. My opinion is that we need to be quite ruthless in removing and refuting such awful content. If the poster is upset by that, tough. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 16:47
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    @DavidHeffernan: "I'm disappointed that we are judging content on how it looks rather than its technical merits." That's the whole point of the "be nice" policy. You can call into question the technical merits of an idea all you want. But you can't do it by degenerating into personal attacks. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 17:11
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    @DavidHeffernan: the comment didn't warrant any more action from a moderator than deletion, is what I meant. Do I think the amount of discussion generated over a comment deletion is a storm in a teacup? Yes, I do, but that's my opinion and doesn't invalidate that asking for a clarification is a valid use of Meta. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 17:31
109

Let's break down your comment to see where things went wrong:

That is a crazy way to handle this.

This is borderline. Personally I'm fine with it, since it's focused on the idea itself.

Disable virtual store? Why don't you get your environment to handle UAC.

This sounds like useful information. I don't know much about Delphi, but this looks like something legitimate.

Only 10 years behind the times! Obviously you are coming from the back of the grid with Delphi 3 but that's no excuse to pretend that the last 10 years did not happen.

This is where your comment definitively crosses a boundary.

You have moved from attacking the idea into attacking the person offering that idea. You cast aspersions on that person's knowledge and expertise.

Attacking a person is always inappropriate. It's perfectly reasonable grounds for deleting your comment. And there is absolutely no excuse for it.

This is not "becoming afraid of criticism for fear of upsetting users". This is not "suppress[ing] critical comments." We are removing inappropriate behavior, provided by a long-standing member who quite frankly really ought to know better.

One of the things that distinguishes SO from newsgroups is that SO stamps on poor advice given by people lacking in knowledge. Is that stamping on poor advice no longer acceptable behaviour?

And there it is again, the needless personal attack: "given by people lacking in knowledge." Poor advice is poor advice, whether given by a newbie fresh off "Hello, World," or given by a 40 year veteran of the field.

If you cannot "stamp on poor advice" without "stamping" on the person giving that advice, then we can wait to do that "stamping" for someone who can behave themselves.

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    Yeah that's fair. That bit was off. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 17:49
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    This is exactly, exactly it. One nit: "...provided by a long-standing member who quite frankly really ought to know better..." Probably best to leave that off, for the same reasons you cover for the comment. Similarly "...for someone who can behave themselves." Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 10:01
  • ... showing that it is tricky to avoid getting personal when the discussion becomes heated or if you get stuck in it for too long (like what happens if you write a prolonged answer) :P Better reread that answer or comment before hitting enter or [post]. Commented Jun 17, 2017 at 14:57
1

I am not a mod, I don't barely understand how SO works at all in fact, however in my limited time here I have learned a few things. It's a fairly strait forward issue. The poster of this question, is just wrong in what they are presenting, and thus they are drawing a wrong conclusion.

Its fairly common knowledge you can't use personal attacks on any SO site.

One can claim this wasn't a personal attack, but it was a personal attack. It didn't take more than .2 seconds to see it as a personal attack either.

That is a crazy way to handle this.

This statement says you disapprove.

Disable virtual store? Why don't you get your environment to handle UAC. Only 10 years behind the times!

This statement is a personal attack. Reason enough to delete the comment. This is a personal attack on the person for being "behind times" and shows utter disrespect and discontent for anyone who would dare to be so far behind times.

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    Well, it wasn't meant to be a personal attack, and I didn't mean to show utter disrespect. At least not consciously. But the wording of my comment says otherwise. Sorry. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 7:53
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    Why is this needed? Nicol's answer is far better and more accurate. The second part contained useful advice, it was the latter part of that you might deem a personal attack.
    – user692942
    Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 18:16
  • Your answer lays bare the very assumption that I'm unable to follow in other people's answers. And it might simply be that I'm too aloof to ever get it. I don't take offense easily to things that people say. But I just cannot understand in what way you or anyone else can interpret this comment as a personal attack. You have to seriously contort the English language to interpret "only 10 years behind the times" as implying that the person is 10 years behind the times. David clearly says "your environment" right before that. It's the program that's behind the times. Which is a provable fact.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 0:26
  • @Lankymart Because I don't entirely agree with the other answer, so I made my own. SO is not about "there is only one right answer". I will explain my reasoning in my next comment to cody gray.
    – Bruce
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 15:43
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    @CodyGray In an offline setting, reading sarcasm is a relatively easy task for most people. For example I can say "codygrey is an awesome person" which is a genuine compliment, or I can say "oh yeah, that codygrey is an awesome person" while rolling my eyes. Both statements say the same thing, one is an insult. The tone of the answer was not simply "giving advice" it was 'giving advice with a very strong undertone of "how dare you or your company be behind times"'.
    – Bruce
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 15:46
-10

Now that more information about the comment has surfaced, we can see two problems: the information might have been useful, but the tone of it coming across was not. Comments can and are often deleted for lesser reasons than this, but the very fact that the comment was deleted doesn't surprise me.

I still stand by my original opinion: if you want to offer a longer-term solution to a problem, you should write an answer for it. I don't disagree that this does introduce some form of burden to you in that now you have to drum up a solution to this problem, but given the alternative would be to have a terrible answer with a snide remark attached to it, most of us would want to see the better answer.

Of course...you did mention in comments:

I can't write a post that answers the question because it's a poor question that should be closed.

If this is the case - I really can't say one way or another since I'm no expert on the technology being used here - then no amount of [constructive] comments could have redeemed it. You should vote to close those sorts of questions and immediately back away from them. I only offered the idea of you answering the question yourself since it seems like you have more insight into what someone in this scenario should be doing, and that kind of knowledge would be helpful to put into an answer.

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    Problem is that I am bound to write an answer to the question asked. I can't write a post that answers the question because it's a poor question that should be closed. And I'm also dubious about making an answer be a refutation of another answer as its primary goal. I did down vote it and vote to delete. Deletion would get the job done. Comments are the next best thing in my view. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 7:47
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    Perhaps a good idea in theory, but correcting a misconception in someone else's answer should not obligate me to go through all the work of posting an answer of my own. That's precisely what comments are for. (Or edits, if the misconception doesn't render the entire answer unsalvageable.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 8:16
  • @DavidHeffernan: Fair point. However, the downvote sends the stronger message that this solution isn't ideal. Don't see any votes for closure on the question, though.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 8:43
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    @CodyGray: That seems to be a common fallacy on comments. They're not going to be around forever, so the correction or warning you leave for future viewers is not guaranteed to be around. The only realistic way you can ensure that someone will see the warning of "hey, you really shouldn't do this - consider these approaches" is to answer the question.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 8:44
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    @CodyGray No. Comments are not there to correct a misconception in someone else's answer. Comments are there to ask for clarification or to point out minor flaws. If the entire answer is wrong, and you have a better idea, post a new answer. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:12
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    This is a Hobson's choice. In order to point out an error in someone else's answer, I have to sit down and compose a complete answer of my own? No thank you. I'll just allow misinformation to be spread. And what if the entire answer is wrong and I don't have a better idea, @Madara? I guess it's that same line of thinking that a question is not a duplicate if the duplicate hasn't been answered. I'm beginning to miss the days when the moderators and I were on the same page. I haven't changed.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:24
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    @makoto It is not a "fallacy". There is nothing logically inconsistent about the position. In fact, the "fallacy" is the assumption that a comment is just going to disappear. They don't evaporate, and they don't expire. They have to be manually deleted by a moderator and/or in response to a flag. So assuming that my comment is not offensive and contains useful information, it is not going to get flagged nor should it be deleted by a moderator who is following the prescribed decision rule. So although your claim that other alternatives are more visible than comments is true, it is irrelevant.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 12:26
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    @Makoto: "However, the downvote sends the stronger message that this solution isn't ideal." No, it doesn't. Downvoting only sends the message that someone downvoted the answer. Why they downvoted it is not stated. And precisely why an idea is not good is vital information. Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 17:10
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    @CodyGray: I'm stunned that you don't believe that comments are not going to just disappear one day. They may not, but the very fact that we can still post comments doesn't meant that they're not going to disappear one day for any ol' reason. I mean, the fact that the Privileges section describes them as "temporary" should be enough to suggest this.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 18:18
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    There is a lot of useful information in comments on SO. Ideally it all should be in answers, but in reality it isn't. It would be a big loss to SO if comments started to randomly disappear. I'm pretty sure the "temporary" language used there is to make new users understand that it's normal for moderators to clean up big discussions in comments, or obsolete comments. It doesn't imply anything about them disappearing by themselves. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 14:56
  • Where does it say there that comments suddenly evaporate? I'm familiar with the purpose of comments; you don't have to patronize me. It describes them as a "temporary post-it note". I don't know about your office, but my post-it notes never just disappear on their own. They're there until I remove them, or someone else removes them for a very specific reason (like the task was completed and they've become obsolete). And like Peter says, I find that there is as much useful information in comments as there is in answers, so this theory you're holding is, if nothing else, impractical.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 6, 2016 at 0:30

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