I recently came across an edit in Documentation that I approved, but another user rejected because the edit was 'too minor to be accepted'. It was one spelling correction, but is it policy to deny such small edits, or are they welcome?
3 Answers
I don't know of a policy yet (Docs is new), but maybe we can set one right now. Here's what I propose:
Not sure which edit you're talking about, but I'll just assume it was a valid correction. If it's valid, it should be approved. Going over the concerns I predict being raised:
But people will get rep unjustly. If it's a large enough edit to pass the threshold for earning Docs rep, then maybe they deserve Docs rep (or maybe the original edit introducing the spelling errors shouldn't have been approved). Otherwise, 99% of these won't pass that threshold and don't matter.
If we need to, let's adjust those thresholds - not impose artificial limits to keep people from making real improvements.
The queues will fill up with these. Come back when this actually happens. I've been saying for years that it's an invalid argument when it comes to the 'normal' suggested edit queue, and I suspect this will be the same story. It might be a problem on smaller sites, but it's been confined to the theoretical on SO.
Remember, 'too minor' is a reject reason in neither the Suggested Edits queue nor in Documentation. If we can't find anything else wrong with it other than "but it's too small"... maybe we ought to approve it.
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1In response to 1, are they not planning on changing the reputation ratios? Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:42
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1@techydesigner Maybe, but it shouldn't really matter. There'll almost certainly still be a threshold, and I trust the team to find a meaningful threshold.– Undo ModCommented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:42
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Ok thank you for the answer - didn't know about the threshold. Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:44
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1Is it not policy on the Q&A side to reject a "too minor" edit if there's other improvements that should have been done but weren't? Does that apply differently for docs (where it's meant to be a continuous addition rather than polishing the existing finished post) Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 10:24
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10@SuperBiasedMan Yes, on main, if they fix a variable name with code markup but leave a bunch of spelling errors then that is a bad edit and can be rejected. I like to use reject and edit or reject as no improvement. On the other hand if they fix a variable name with code markup and that is the only issue then it is a good edit. You can't fix stuff that isn't broken so they fixed what they could and that should be approved. Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 11:48
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@undo Can you publish somewhere at least a rough description of how substantive an edit needs to be to gain rep?– TylerHCommented Aug 11, 2016 at 13:27
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@TylerH I don't have access to that; you'll have to ask a developer. I just know it exists.– Undo ModCommented Aug 11, 2016 at 13:57
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5Note: I reject too minor edits on SOD on occasion (which I would approve for Q&A) due to rep gain and the fact that Python tag at least has enough people that queues do not fill up as much - I will continue to do so until I see a rep limit as I have gotten rep (repeated +5) for small changes of this type and it is not deserved - once fixed (or actual guidance given in help) then I'll change my policy Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 14:10
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3@JGreenwell No, any changes to reputation will almost certainly be retroactive. Don't worry about the rep, worry about the documentation and the improvements themselves. The team will figure out reputation in time.– Undo ModCommented Aug 11, 2016 at 14:12
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3They have lost a lot of my trust through their actions and I am not willing to invest more until I see some of the promised changes Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 14:14
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@JGreenwell I can definitely agree with that. I don't believe I deserve much of the rep I've gotten from Docs (though now that I have it I don't want to loose it!). Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 15:43
The existence of a positive component to the edit does not mean that its net value is positive.
If we value the time and energy of the reviewer at all, there must be a threshold below which a positive contribution has a net negative impact.
As there is no shortage of reviewers, we could set a "market rate" of valuing the reviewer at zero.
I hold this is misguided, as it presumes all reviewers are equal, and that trivial improvements demoralize reviewers who do a good job, and please robo-reviewers whose only goal is to avoid the obvious audits.
Expecting other people to review changes that don't change the quality significantly is not polite, as it is a waste of the reviewers time.
This has nothing to do with queues filling up or reputation gain, despite undo's strawmen.
If a change doesn't increase the quality significantly, I think it should be rejected in review.
While stack overflow policy appears to be "reviewers time has no value so long as there is a sufficient supply of them", I can and do disagree with that policy. That position presumes all reviewers are of equal value, and that value should be determined by market rates (ie, zero).
There is a robo review problem in SO even when there are empty review queues, and having review queues full of trivial improvements makes reviewing less fun and have less impact per unit work, and hence makes reviewers who are motivated by improving the site less motivated to do it.
Meanwhile, reviewers motivated by badges or imaginary internet points are not demotivated by trivial "small improvement" changes, as the effort they expend is not to improve the site, but rather to gather their imaginary internet points. Such trivial "small improvements" are great as far as they are concerned.
The effort reviewers put in reviewing changes should be respected, even if there is an endless supply of them. Trivial improvements should be rejected, and people making them informed they should do more before asking for a review.
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1I don't agree. If the edit truly contributes nothing, then by all means reject it. But spelling errors ought to be fixed. If edits that only fix spelling are rejected, then the mispelt words will stay that way unless the original author by some chance happens to fix it. Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 19:14
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2@FredBarclay: "then the mispelt words will stay that way unless the original author by some chance happens to fix it." Or until someone with full editing privileges comes along and fixes it. Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 5:03
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@NicolBolas true, but why wait till then? If the edit corrects something, no matter how small, then I think it does contribute something worthwhile. Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 14:43
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@FredBarclay Added above: the existence of a positive component does not mean that its net value is positive. If we value the time and energy of the reviewer at all, there must be a threshold below which a positive contribution has a net negative impact. As there is no shortage of reviewers, we could set a "market rate" of valuing the reviewer at zero. I hold this is misguided, as it presumes all reviewers are equal, and that trivial improvements demoralize reviewers who do a good job, and please robo-reviewers whose only goal is to avoid the obvious audits. Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 14:52
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All reviewers are equal: yes. All reviews are equal: absolutely not! Besides, isn't there a minimum threshold of "significance" before the reviewer gains rep? Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 15:26
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@FredBarclay No, all reviewers are not equal. Someone who uses the review queue as a game to avoid audits, and get a badge, is not the same as a reviewer who actually tries to review things. The robo-reviewer is worse than useless. All reviewers are not equal, they have different motivations and behaviors. Second, I explicitly stated my argument is not about reputation gain at all. Why are you bringing up reputation gain? Please point out where I am not being clear about that. Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 15:35
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I had assumed that's what you meant by "market rate" in your last comment. ;) You're right about robo-reviewers; I wasn't thinking about them, only reviewers who only make minor (but correct) revisions. That's my fault. Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 15:39
The problem is that, so long as people get rep from trivial changes that get upvoted, letting you make such a trivial change is essentially giving you rep for doing something trivial.
So if you'd like this to be changed, we first have to stop giving people rep for no good reason. Once we know that spelling corrections won't give you rep forever, we'll let you do it.
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13There's a threshold for how large an edit must be to qualify for reputation.– Undo ModCommented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:36
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7@undo: Looking at the history of the person in question and analyzing the edit content vs. the rep they've accumulated, I'd say that those thresholds need adjustment. Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:42
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27Then let's adjust the thresholds. We should attack the problem, not a symptom.– Undo ModCommented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:43
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3@undo: Well, until those thresholds get adjusted (assuming that a good automated system is even possible, which I doubt), we should do what we can to prevent people from gaining arbitrary rep for minimal useful effort. Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:44
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7I suspect any adjustment will (or could be) be retroactive. It won't be perfect, but it'll be good enough. Any policy we set now will be hard to change once it's entrenched with people (see how it's shaken out in main-site suggested edit reviews, with people rejecting edits as 'too minor' even though that was removed as a reason.)– Undo ModCommented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:46
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@undo: "It won't be perfect, but it'll be good enough." Good enough for what? To avoid being gamed? Because I find it hard to believe that someone can come up with a simple heuristic that can beat a clever person. Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:48
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3Nothing will be perfect, but it'll be good enough for the 95%. We have a whole bunch of clever humans, they'll notice and the other 5% can be handled manually by flagging for moderator attention.– Undo ModCommented Aug 10, 2016 at 3:49
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3@NicolBolas You know that all changes they make to the rep of this are going to be fully retroactive? When they're done ironing out the edges, nobody will have rep they don't deserve.– MagischCommented Aug 10, 2016 at 6:34
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4@Magisch hope it will happen as m wasting my 20 review in rejecting those minor edits of people who are only doing for rep. 200 rep without giving any answer, seriously :( Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 13:03