14

Since when are questions like these OK for Stack Overflow?

I've been less active on Stack Overflow for a couple years now, but there was definitely a time when things like this would get removed almost immediately. Given that one of the VTC options is this...

enter image description here

...why are we allowing questions like the above on the site? In a very subtle sense the questions are not asking to recommend a tool, but they aren't programming questions either.

5
  • 8
    That happens when hi-rep users are less active, those questions don't close themselves. You were not the only one. Commented Aug 2, 2016 at 13:44
  • To answer your question without an answer, probably not. These questions would take original thought that isn't regurgitation from a textbook or a canned response. Closing as off-topic is chosen most often because it's easier than answering the question after moving it to the proper board. Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 2:17
  • 5
    Er, "where is <some tool> located on a typical machine" is not a recommendation request for an off-site resource. In fact, it sounds like a potentially appropriate question for SuperUser (though not an appropriate SO question). Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 16:49
  • 3
    @Luke aaaah of course, the good ol' "people close because they don't understand questions" rant... always so relevant and realistic... as if our rules don't... you know, matter or whatever.
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 4, 2016 at 0:41
  • 4
    'Recommend or find a tool', implying that software tools aren't off-topic but questions asking for a tool or what tool to use are (quite rightly) off-topic.
    – AStopher
    Commented Aug 4, 2016 at 11:57

4 Answers 4

38

Questions on software tools might be on-topic, as per the help center:

  • software tools commonly used by programmers

The first question would better suited on SuperUser - though the author mentions they're using xcopy as part of the build process. The second seems a bit too 'simple' for Database Administrators, but a reasonable question for somebody starting out with MongoDB in a development project. I think both questions borderline belong on Stack Overflow. At the very least, they're certainly not recommendation questions.

7
  • 5
    "though the author mentions they're using xcopy as part of the build process" - which is not any kind of argument to make it on-topic on SO, right? Otherwise the sky is basically the limit.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 2, 2016 at 14:11
  • 5
    @Gimby they gave at least a reason why they posted it on Stack Overflow. That's a 100% improvement on what I see most of the times.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Aug 2, 2016 at 14:13
  • 10
    @Gimby and Glo, remember that everything is conditioned to "and is a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development" This part of the on topic page is the most important.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 2, 2016 at 21:16
  • 1
    @braiam True enough. That basically refers back to what Yuck said; but they aren't programming questions. No they're not, so the fact that they're about tools which -might- be used in the development process becomes irrelevant.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 7:17
  • 6
    Doesn't writing a build script count as programming? Seems to me a question intended to resolve an error encountered while debugging a build script is definitely on-topic.
    – Ajedi32
    Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 16:37
  • @Braiam I would be interested in your thoughts on my answer below.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 4, 2016 at 0:22
  • Glor, could you please incorporate my comment in your answer? People are taking your answer to be really literal, where even clearly general software questions are considered fair game.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 6, 2020 at 17:18
16

why are we allowing questions like the above on the site?

Because no one has voted to close them yet.

In a very subtle sense the questions are not asking to recommend a tool, but they aren't programming questions either.

I would have voted to close with the reason: "Questions about general computing hardware and software are off-topic for Stack Overflow unless they directly involve tools used primarily for programming. You may be able to get help on Super User." They aren't tool recommendations.

5
  • I actually did vote to close as well as flagged. I flagged it because I didn't expect it to get enough votes on its own being such an old question. My flag was denied, so I now find myself here looking for clarification.
    – Yuck
    Commented Aug 2, 2016 at 14:12
  • 10
    @Yuck you flagged it as what? With your rep, you should be able to vote to close questions, not flag for closure.
    – JAL
    Commented Aug 2, 2016 at 14:15
  • Just to add to this very good answer: They may be on-topic on another Stackexchange site. So migrating might also be an option. Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 6:34
  • I agree wrt. xcopy, but how is MongoDB general computing software and not "used primarily for programming"?
    – nwellnhof
    Commented Aug 5, 2016 at 12:48
  • @nwellnhof how do I install mongo on Ubuntu? It's this a question a programmer face? Yes, of course, so did I installing the unifi controller on a vm. Was I programming? No. That's why.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 6, 2020 at 17:35
13

Where do questions about technologies go?

I'm going to start by asking a question. For each of the following technologies, what's the difference between programming in them and just using them?

  • bash
  • PowerShell
  • Command Prompt
  • SQL
  • Python (It does have a REPL and a -c argument, you know)

The best answer to that question is, "If there is one, it's so small it's not worth even thinking about." Maybe you could say, "If you're saving a script," but that's an utterly useless distinction, especially in terms of StackExchange site categorization and where a user could openly lie about it and no one would be the wiser.

Another question: where do questions about vim go? They could go here on SO, since this is something software developers use regularly. They could also go on SuperUser, since it's just a text editor that's used in routine tasks when using some operating systems.

Here's the common thread: questions about these technologies can be reasonably asked and answered by developers because they use these tools and encounter problems with them as part of participating in their field. Questions about them could also be asked elsewhere because they're not exclusively used by developers.

That fact applies to the technologies in the questions you linked as well. xcopy is definitely a tool software developers commonly use in scripts. MongoDB is definitely a tool developers commonly use to store their data. Okay, they're not the most stellar questions ever. Sure. The first one could maybe get a better answer on SuperUser. And okay, the second question is probably poorly researched. But that doesn't mean that the topics they address are outside the site's scope. These are reasonable questions for a programmer to run into during the course of developing software, and that means the subject matter is in scope for SO.

We shouldn't try to make categorizing questions on StackExchange as strict as our compilers are.

There's a pretty sizable chunk of overlap between SO and its sister SuperUser, Programmers, DBA, and ServerFault sites. That's fine. It's okay if some questions could fit on multiple sites and even if they're posted on multiple sites. No puppies or kittens will die if a cross-site dupe exists. This is a pretty regular occurrence between SciFi and Movies & TV, and the sites aren't burning down for it.

I'd also like to make note of the definition of SO's subject matter from the help:

  • a specific programming problem, or
  • a software algorithm, or
  • software tools commonly used by programmers; and is
  • a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

Some users emphasize the word "unique" there, but as I've demonstrate with my earlier questions, this isn't something we can define very strictly. It's also worth noting that they didn't choose the word "exclusively," which would more clearly convey the idea that it cannot be something related to another field. This could perhaps be better worded as "strongly related to software development," but the point is to paint a bit of a picture that, "This site is for software development problems." Pretty much every word in that description has some level of vagueness or subjectivity.

What problem are we trying to solve?

Sites are assigned a specific topic to help solve the problem of which experts need to view these questions. We have further divisions within individual SEs (tags), of course, but choosing the site is the first step. It identifies the field of experts the asker needs to reach. Most software development experts familiar with the technologies in question are perfectly capable of answering these questions. So we're left asking, "What problem are you trying to solve by closing these questions?"

I think this is an XY-problem. You're concerned about site quality (We all are.), but you've gone down the wrong path to solving it. Go back a level to the question above this one: what can we do to improve question quality? I think you'll find that, "Closing all questions that ask about details of executing a tool," is not a good solution to that problem.

14
  • You asked for my opinion, so here it goes. It seems that you are falling of the same problem as with each answer: not every thing a programmer uses in their life is on topic. Lines have to be drawn, limits set. SU, SF were created first exactly for those reasons, there were questions on SO which weren't programming, but people involved in the process find themselves using. Look around today, did you cook? Make coffee? Screamed at a game? Which of those tasks you believe other developers commonly do and what tools do they use? There's simply not limit if we take that sentence at face value.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 6, 2020 at 17:33
  • 2
    @Braiam "not every thing a programmer uses in their life is on topic." My answer claims nothing of the sort you're suggesting. This is some kind of deliberate misinterpretation to set up a complete strawman.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 5:45
  • No, this is explaining how your argument is pushed in the real world. "No, but shells are generally on-topic. We've had that debate before" linking me to this discussion to claim that this question is on topic! A question where a file that everyone using macos would need to know where it resides. So, my "strawman" argument is the kind of argument your how answer is being used to argue against the practical, unique to software development requirement that limits it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 10:29
  • If any question is on topic simply because programmers use it, the sky is the limit, which you claim "These are reasonable questions for a programmer to run into during the course of developing software, and that means the subject matter is in scope for SO." which is true, but it's not unique to them.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 10:31
  • 1
    @Braiam "If any question is on topic simply because programmers use it, the sky is the limit, which you claim." Nope. I'm obviously not claiming that making coffee manually is on topic; you asserted that I did. The help and my answer are quite clear on what qualifies: software tools that programmers use and activities strongly connected to software development. I make all of this completely plain, but you're willfully ignoring it. I also rebut your discussion of "unique" explicitly. I don't think you even read my answer.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 20:05
  • 1
    @Braiam As for that question specifically, it's borderline. The command prompt is unquestionably a software tool commonly used by software developers, though, so we shouldn't exclude it. It does no more harm than someone asking about how to auto-format a file in Visual Studio. That particular post has quality issues, but the subject matter is on topic. See my final section.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 20:10
  • @Braiam Also, this claim is patently untrue: "A question where a file that everyone using macos would need to know where it resides." A large number of Mac users will go their entire lives without opening a command prompt. They certainly don't need to know anything about that file. And even many of those that do open it occasionally will never find a need to customize the shell's behavior and thus won't need the file.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 20:15
  • Lets do an exercise: is a pure "software algorithm" on topic? No, it's not.. Is a pure "specific programming problem" on topic? No, again, not all programming problems are on topic, see programming on a boat for an extreme example. The same is about "software tools commonly used by programmers". Windows is a tool, commonly used by programmers, but pure windows questions aren't on topic, nor are linux, nor are software installation, nor other stuff that are "common to programmers".
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 22:01
  • So, please, consider that maybe the topic wasn't meant to be read as a independent points but holistically instead. Claiming that as long as programmers use them is "on topic" makes more confusing the topic.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 7, 2020 at 22:02
  • @Braiam You literally lied about my answer and made completely untrue assertions in your own arguments. This has nothing to do with considering points "holistically" or some such nonsense. The fact is you and your argument have no credibility because of the falsehoods you've espoused, and your most recent attempts at rebuttal are equally irrelevant to anything I've argued. Unfortunately, you have not honestly engaged with any of the points I've made, so I'd appreciate if you'd stop harassing me in the comments.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 6:08
  • I'm not lying about your answer: trust me, that's how people read it! Don't read what you write, read what others read instead. That way you would see that your answer is squarely arguing for a "anything goes as long as programmers use it", once you categorically limit that (and other answers here do so too) we are going to have this argument.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 20:27
  • @Braiam How can you know what others understand when they read it? Maybe you think you do, but I doubt that you can read minds.
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 8, 2020 at 21:04
  • @Braiam I can't help it if someone injects something into my words that's clearly not there like you're doing. Maybe if someone is obviously misreading my answer, you should correct them about what I actually said instead of arguing with me against something I never said. Or maybe you're just biased because you want an unreasonable level of strictness with what's on topic. I seriously doubt anyone argued that making coffee is on topic based on my answer here. Now stop bothering me.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 9, 2020 at 0:19
  • @Braiam If you have specific suggestions for improving the clarity, I will consider them. But I'm not interested in arguing with someone who misrepresents the truth in an attempt to win an argument.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 9, 2020 at 0:40
4

As noted in Glorfindel's answer, questions about "software tools commonly used by programmers" can be on-topic.

Personally, I think that text should read "software tools commonly and primarily used by programmers". I.e. as programmers there are a lot of tools we use which are general purpose and not really specific to programming. It seems to me that questions about such tools are better handled elsewhere and don't add much if any value to Stack Overflow. IMHO, this interpretation is supported by the vote-to-close dialog box itself, which reads "unless they directly involve tools primarily related to programming".

But at least according to the Stack Overflow Help Center guidelines, any tool commonly used by programmers would be fair game.

As far as reasons to close the two questions you've referenced, it seems to me that neither are actually "recommend/find" questions in the spirit of the vote-to-close dialog box. The "xcopy" question comes the closest, but it's not really asking for help to "find" the xcopy tool in the way that the vote-to-close reason means, i.e. "where can I download this tool?" but rather it's more about system configuration.

That said, that's not to say that either of these questions should remain open. The first one clearly shows an utter lack of research. At the very least, it deserves a down-vote. And if you agree with my reading of the vote-to-close dialog box, the xcopy tool is not primarily related to programming and so questions about it, its location, or its host (i.e. Windows), would be off-topic.

The other question, even if you accept that MongoDB might be "primarily related to programming" (which is debatable), is in any case clearly too broad. It should be closed on any site on that basis.


So why haven't they been closed? Well, as already noted elsewhere, mainly because no one's closed them yet (and that was only the case earlier…they've both been closed at this writing, though sadly the "xcopy" question has already garnered two reopen votes.

Speaking of which, that's a big part of the problem. It's hard enough to get enough experience Stack Overflow users to be able to have the time and a large enough vote quota to keep up with the deluge of pointless, lazy, off-topic questions that swamps the site every day. But on top of that, there are users who for whatever reason go around actively voting in favor of bad questions and answers.

That's a whole other discussion, which you can find some of already in various other Meta posts.

5
  • "But at least according to the Stack Overflow Help Center guidelines, any tool commonly used by programmers would be fair game" actually, no. The help center says clearly "and is a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development", otherwise we would accept any text editor/browser/package manager question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 23:04
  • 2
    @Braiam: it is not outside the realm of possibility that, while xcopy is not unique to software development, someone might ask a question involving xcopy which itself is unique to software development. I'm not sure that "where is xcopy located" could in fact be considered such a question, but that just means the question isn't a good question, which was already established based on a number of other points already anyway. That a question involves xcopy does not necessarily in and of itself preclude the question from being a good Stack Overflow question (however unlikely that might be). Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 23:07
  • You are misunderstanding my intentions. The help center doesn't say that just because is "software tools commonly used by programmers" is fair game. It has to be first "a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development" and then whatever other reason you want. Basically, the bullet points are to be read as ( x || y || z) && a. If a is false, then doesn't matter what other conditions are fulfilled, it will not be inside of SO scope, like "how to change the theme of <your favorite IDE>?".
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 23:19
  • @Braiam: I know how the bullet points are to be read. It is you who is misunderstanding my intentions. The part of my post that you commented on has nothing to do with the last bullet point. Your comment thus has no relevance to my post, and indeed appears to be written by someone who didn't read far enough into my post to find where I wrote "that's not to say that either of these questions should remain open". Commented Aug 4, 2016 at 0:52
  • ←Personally, I think that text should read "software tools commonly and primarily used by programmers"→ Good idea. Commented Aug 4, 2016 at 11:49

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .