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Since Documetation is still in baking process, should 1 rep users really be allowed to participate?

Posting on Meta requires 5 rep, creating Wiki posts requires 10 rep.

I am not against users participating and gaining reputation, but without at least some minimal reputation boundary Documentation will be swamped with low quality posts.

We are still in process of learning different how-to's and Documentation do's and dont's, restricting low reputation users from participating at least until Documentation gets out of the Beta might help to get high quality content in and leave low quality content out.

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  • 29
    I prefer this one Minimum tag score for adding documentation
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 19:34
  • 2
    @Braiam I wouldn't mind having something like that either.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 19:44
  • 2
    @Braiam Denying free work doesn't seem a good strategy to me. On the Q&A, you get immediately reward for producing content (Q: answers + rep, A: more rep). On the doc SE it is not clear, writing doc is more work as writing answers, if there is no reward, it won't worth its price. If you would work for somebody for free, it is not rational from him to deny your offer. On the Q&A, even anons can improve (=> edit) posts if they passed the review mechanism.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:02
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    @peterh eh, I deny free work any day if I have to end up cleaning up the mess every time. I prefer having to fork out cash so the job gets done The Right Way™ or do it myself. Just because is free doesn't mean is good or even desirable.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:05
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    @Braiam Denying free work from newbies seems to me much more as a resource protection urge, it is not rational.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:08
  • 3
    @peterh well, would you allow someone that has no medical knowledge to treat the illness of your children or go to the doctor (that you pay by forking a part of your salary) like a rational person would? Documentation standards are a notch higher than Q&A, that everyone can participate doesn't mean that you shouldn't prove worthy of being able to.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:11
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    @peterh: "Denying free work from newbies seems to me much more as a resource protection urge, it is not rational." How is resource protection irrational? If Docs.SO is intended to be a resource, then protecting it is vital to how useful it will be. Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:22
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    @peterh: I have One Hundred and Eighty-Eight Thousand rep. Why do you think I care in the slightest that Docs.SO has caused me to hit rep-cap the last two days? Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:31
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    @NicolBolas I don't know. But knowing this changed my opinion: now I only think, that you simply forgot, that you started on 1 rep, too. In the edit review queue, many low rep edit happens and they are not always bad. Also the posts of the 1 rep users are not always bad.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:39
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    @peterh: When I "started on 1 rep", we didn't have your fancy "edit review queue". If we wanted to edit posts, we had to earn it by building up rep to the point where you could edit. In the snow. Both ways. Being able to edit stuff is not necessary for being able to contribute to this site. Someone else can come along and make the same edit you would have. Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:42
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    @peterh: It would perhaps be better if you stopped trying to decide what my reasons really are for this and instead focus on my actual position: Low rep users being able to make changes to Docs.SO hurts the quality of it. Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:43
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    @NicolBolas Wow. I didn't know it. I think, the old system was not enough well developed, and on my opinion, allowing anybody to edit posts, but making them obligatory to pass the review mechanism, is much better. And, by analogy, this is my opinion also in the case of the docs. The obvious fact that writing docs is harder as writing answers, doesn't change it, because edit review queue decisions are the easiest.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:55
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    @peterh We all started with 1 rep. If you have knowledge then gaining minimal reputation (5, 10, 15, 50) is no effort at all. If you don't have knowledge then you are probably not the best person for writing any documentation until you gain some knowledge.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 10:03
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    @peterh And review process is error prone. Besides, SO already has problem with close vote queues where there is not enough reviewers to close all the low quality content pouring in. I don't want that to happen with Docs, especially in the beginning while rules are not firmly fixed.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 10:06
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    @peterh You are just proving my point. If beginners are not motivated enough to participate with quality content then their contributions certainly don't belong to Docs. On the other hand if they are motivated they will have no problems in gaining some symbolic reputation on the SO that will allow them to participate on Docs.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 16:42

3 Answers 3

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So far I have only seen such users contributing to documentation. The users with high reputations seem to be keeping away. Can't blame them either. It's absurd when a contribution made by a person with 25K reps can be approved or rejected by a person with 250 reps. Why would they bother?

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  • Going to the doc SE is also a behavioral change, and old users tend to change their behaviors slower. This is my reason, too, although I know that early participation could lead probably to improved results on the long-term. Suddenly I've got a 3k+ doc SE account as a gift, well maybe I will once take part in the activites there, but not on the spot. For the new users is everything new, thus a significant part of them start their activities also there. The rules of the doc SE absolutely don't influence my this behavior, I don't even know them (I suspect they are similar to the other SE sites).
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 23:41
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    On my opinion, multiple high-rep votes should be able to override the poster decisions, so voted up.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 23:47
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    you have a valid point there @peterh about everything being new for new users so they are trying out more thing. However as for the rules they are very different on documentation than in other places. For example in SO if you post a duplicate, off topic or low quality post it gets closed pretty quikcly. There isn't anything like that in doumentation
    – e4c5
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 23:50
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    It's not just an "old users are stuck in a rut" problem. Many of us have tried in earnest to contribute, but have made the conscious decision to bow out because of frustration with systemic problems. Bad contributions getting approved, good contributions getting rejected, lack of clarity on what Documentation should look like, a frustrating and confusing interface, crippling bugs that should have been fixed in the private beta, etc. etc. Having some kind of minimum standard for participation would at least fix problems 1 and 2, which would go a long way towards making Docs useful in future.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 23:55
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    @CodyGray To me, SE is actually a pilot game. We are in a pyramide, trying to step up, but in the reality, it is only an intellectual trap to make free work. This is why I stopped collecting reputation after 3k, and this is my another reason, why I am not hurry up to make more money for the SE Inc. This doc SE is a good idea, but I played enough here already and my life is limited. On my opinion, it makes only the pilot game into a new level.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 1:01
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    @peter I don't see SE as anything like a game at all, and haven't for as long as I can remember. I couldn't give a crap about reputation for myself. But there is one significant reason that reputation matters: it is used as a measure of trust and grants the people who have it privileges on the site. So earning gobs and gobs of reputation for contributing shitty documentation creates a serious problem for the site. None of this has anything to do with money. I'm not here to play or earn brownie points. I'm here to learn, to help others, and to make the Internet a better place.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 4:55
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    @CodyGray Bad content can be voted down, can be flagged for deletion, etc. It was always so, it is the essence of the whole SE: a review process decides the quality, and not a hardcoded privilege system. What you suggest, it is the style of the ancient usenet newsgroups and irc channels: where the oldboys were the demigods of their own trashpile and instead the community votes, the prestige determined a false illusion of quality.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 5:04
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    I have no idea what you are talking about, @peter. I am very much in favor of community moderation. What I described is, however, the way that the site actually does work. Brand new users who have yet to earn any reputation do not have moderation privileges, except for in Documentation. New users are certainly able to gain privileges by gaining reputation by contributing in meaningful ways and demonstrating their knowledge. It is not an elitist system, it is a practical one. More importantly, moderation takes work. The best solution is to keep bad content from ever entering the system.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 5:10
  • @CodyGray Yes, you know very well what I am talking about. You only won't admit it. This is why you want exceptional handling of the docs. No, no exceptional handling of the docs is needed, community review process should decide, as always, and no reputation limit should exist. If the review system is bad (it looks it is bad), then it should be fixed, and not its usage should be limited to an inner circle of users.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 5:26
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    @CodyGray In this whole debate I can see only a group of preschoolers desperatively trying to "expropriate" the playground from the smaller kids.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 5:39
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    You still haven't provided a justification for why Docs should work differently from the rest of the site, @peter. You just keep accusing me of being an elitist, when that couldn't be further from the truth. You claim that I want "exceptional handling of the docs", but in that that is precisely what we have now. Docs is an exception in that anyone, including brand new users who have no idea how the site works and have yet to demonstrate a competence in the core subject area, can suggest modifications. And those modifications can be approved by someone else equally as uninformed. That's bad.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 5:42
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    @CodyGray On the Q&A, you can post content even without registration. You can edit others content without a registration. You want forbid this, not only for the anons, but also for the low rep users, of course only on the doc SE. And you say that I would want an exceptional handling of the doc SE?
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 5:46
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    @Cody Gray Isn't a bit of elitism exactly what we are requesting? Personally, as one who primarily uses this site as a source of knowledge, I'd be very interested in having the most knowledgeable provide most of the content.
    – AkselA
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 10:52
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    Exactly this, at the minute it appears to me that it is being abused as a reputation cash cow as a way for people to gain reputation rather than as a way to contribute to something larger. I'm not going to reconsider participating in the docs until there is a [docs] magic link/help page similar to How to Ask, something that describes whatever it is actually supposed to do and be used for
    – Sayse
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 14:14
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    yep @sayse I am not going back until down votes on docs actually result in reputation loss (right now it doesn't seem to happen)
    – e4c5
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 16:12
13

Should 1 rep users be allowed to write documentation?

It depends on where things go from here. What I do believe is that privileges on Docs should be totally divorced from Q&A.

There are at least some, if not many, users who want nothing to do with Q&A as it is today. I'm one of them. I would however, like to freely participate in Docs. I'm completely uninterested in fixing someone's crap broken code, but incredibly interested in writing docs.

Let's pretend for a moment that I'm not an ex-Q&A user, but a brand shiny new 1 rep Doc user. What's my path to the first X rep I need to be able to participate if I'm not allowed to until I reach X rep?

That needs to be determined if we wish to stop new users from writing docs because we now have three entirely different user bases here. Some will only participate in Q&A, some only in Docs, some in both.

I'm not opposed to disallowing new users from doing certain things in Docs until they reach a certain threshold, but there needs to be a clear path to obtain these privileges using docs and docs alone.

Forcing people to use the Q&A site in order to gain privileges on Docs is assanine. I have zero interest in Q&A, yet in order for me to commit to a proposal, I have to participate in it. Why? How many great users will walk away because they feel forced to use a feature they don't want to use in order to gain access to the part they want to use?

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    Right now you can even submit your documentation as a self-answer on the Q&A side and get reputation for it, if it's any good.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 21:47
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    @BenVoigt but why should anyone have to?
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 21:59
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    So that people can comment on it and help you learn how to write it even better. A feature that sadly is totally missing from the Documentation subsite today.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 22:02
  • @BenVoigt It's really intentional that comments are lacking on the docpages themselves. that's what the flags are for, to point out any issues. The issue of comments is that they are permanent; instead, if there is something to comment, it should be incorporated into the example itself.
    – bwoebi
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 22:04
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    @bwoebi I would actually like to see a Wikipedia like discussion (meta) page for topics. Those kinds of comments may need to be incorporated. Or they may not.
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 22:08
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    @RubberDuck I totally agree that it should be possible to discuss the flags. It also should be possible to preserve the flags (i.e. look up which flags were already dismissed and why) … the flags should be some sort of "threaded" comments IMO.
    – bwoebi
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 22:10
  • @bwoebi: Flags are for moderator attention, not expert attention, correct? Moderators are not subject matter experts.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 22:12
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    @BenVoigt In this case not. In this case the flags (except rude/abusive and "in need of moderator intervention") go to the publicly viewable "view improvement" list on the dashboard and is prominently marked on the topic/example. (I agree this is bad user experience, at least when you're used to the q&a flags…)
    – bwoebi
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 22:14
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    Sounds reasonable, but... there is not much that brand new Docs user could do on Docs to gain minimal reputation besides posting and editing which poses burden on review system because all posts must be reviewed. Again, that is not a problem if brand new Docs user is competent to write Docs. And if he/she is competent then gaining minimal reputation on SO itself should not be an issue.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 9:51
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    @DalijaPrasnikar I'll repeat myself, because no one has given me a decent answer yet. Why should anyone be forced to use Q&A if they only wish to use Docs?
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 9:53
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    @RubberDuck and other way around. Why would I have to gain specific Docs reputation in order to participate (review) when I have already proven on SO that I have more than enough knowledge to write Documentation in areas of my expertise. No system is perfect.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 9:55
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    No. You're right. No system is perfect @DalijaPrasnikar and you bring up another great piece of the current privilege system that should be changed.
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 9:59
  • @RubberDuck Agreed.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 10:20
-28

On my opinion, yes.

Forbidding to contribute is irrational, writing doc is work, and free work.

Of course, the posts of the newbies will be unacceptable with a much more chance, but so is it also on Q&A.

Thus, on my opinion, the review mechanism should be finetuned. As I understand, a single 250 rep user can reject a 25k+ proposal, it is clearly not okay.

I can't find useful if somebody wants to help you (i.e. write doc to your site) and you reject his work even without examining its quality.

To me, this whole "forbid lowrep users to editing docs" seems to me like a resource protection urge. But it is totally illogic! As if writing doc would be a privilege! Writing doc is work. Free work. For the SE.

This is why I find laughing that you are regularly fighting to have more possibilities to work for free for the SE, Inc. Why aren't you fighting for the possibilities to send more bucks to my bank account? ;-) I would pay for it with many-many reputation points on my very special "buckoverflow" site. :-)

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    "I can't find useful if somebody wants to help you (i.e. write doc to your site) and you reject his work even without examining its quality." Why not? We do this all the time in the real world. People dismiss candidates based solely on their resumes. This is the same thing: we cull out the population that is less likely to be good contributors until they have proven that they can be. Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:24
  • @NicolBolas This is the review mechanism is for. On the Q&A, it works quite well.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:27
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    "This is the review mechanism is for." Forcing experts to review crap posts is a terrible use of their time. If we can't keep crap out without wasting the very time of the people who are most likely to be able to write good documentation, then the system is broken. It's bad enough that we have to go around and close crap questions as it is. Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:30
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    @NicolBolas This why after some deeply downvoted posts, you are forbidden to ask new questions (or post new answers) on the Q&A. The same would work here very good as well. Btw, writing a doc extension is much more work as clicking a "reject" button, thus not the time of the high-rep users would be wasted but the newbies.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:32
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    A proper review requires effort. If they post source code, you have to copy that code into a compiler and make sure it does what they claim. If they talk about something in the language, you have to verify that it is correct. And so forth. Oh sure, you can pretend to review stuff; you can do it half-way. But experts didn't get to be experts by doing things half-way. Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:34
  • @NicolBolas It is true. I think, really bad things (f.e. putting trojans) should be also followed by harder steps. If a doc change is only a little bit bad, it should be repaired. If it is very bad, it should be rejected. The cases, as a doc is very bad, but it is not visible with few effort, are rare. In the review edit queue are the decisions the easiest.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 0:49
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    A bad programmer can easily make two jobs per year... Cleaning up after the messes made by low rep users counterbalances any "free" illusion. Suppose you take 10 people off the street who say they'll write software for free, even though they're terrible at it. If you use what they wrote (and we do) then the ensuing disaster has to be cleaned up by professionals. I want people to participate. If new guys ask bad questions, no problem. But if they edit documentation, it has a much more lasting effect on the site.
    – Athena
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 3:54
  • @Ares 1: How relate the bad programmers and their jobs here? 2: What "free illusions" are you talking about? 3: Clicking a "reject" button, why would it be so hard? 4: Why would be low rep users bad programmers?... I had some questions yet, but I have a strong impression, that these 4 are already more than enough in this context. Well, maybe a fifth: don't you think, maybe you are a little bit jealous for the possibilities to collect reputation?
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 4:08
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    I think we should maybe just take few steps back. all I'm saying is that new users make lots of messes that ultimately have to be cleaned up by high rep users, whose time is more valuable. The time adds up. Just like it does for Triage. Low rep users aren't all bad programmers. You're right. But anyone can join SO. Also, that's not jealousy, since jealousy is when you're afraid someone will take what you have, rather than wanting what someone else has. I guess I just really don't get the point you're making. Also, what was with the comment on my other post?
    – Athena
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 14:00
  • @Ares This works quite well everywhere. There are enough high rep users. Ok, if I could decide about it, I would lower the VtC/VtR privilege need on the SO (more exactly: I would make it adaptive), but I wouldn't ever limit the posting rights. Put a link to your other post.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 15:12
  • I'm not going to link that question because it has absolutely nothing to do with this. How does a question about duplicates even factor into this? @NicolBolas made the point I'm trying to make here. Am now at this point, more confused than anything...
    – Athena
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 16:40
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    Let me see if I can capture the points made here. We have nothing against new guys. But the argument that it's free work is flawed. I'll redo all your plumbing if you like, for free! I'll also probably make a massive mess and destroy your home. Then you need to use the valuable time of an actual plumber to figure out what went wrong. Next time, hire even just a decent plumber- at least they have the basics down. Reputation is a measure of how much the site trusts you. Why should we let some untrusted person make such significant changes?
    – Athena
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 16:45
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    @Ares Why should we have anything against them? I can't see any bad if a lot of enthusiasts come here and want to make well-written docs. It should be encouraged and not oppressed. Very bad content should be deleted, little bit bad should be fixed, as always. No rep limit for producing content, but rep limit for the review privileges. It is the SE model, and this is what works. Your words like "untrusted" and similar are only euphemisms saying that you want to forbid free work. I hope the SE won't ever allow it.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 16:51
  • @Ares If a 2k- user edits your post, you are allowed to reject it. If others allowed his modification, or a 2k+ user edited your post, you are still allowed to revert it. But these happen only very rarely, because most of the edit suggestions are perfectly okay. With the edit review queue have we the least problems here.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 16:53
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    These extremes don't hold water with me. It's as if @NicolBolas and I are standing on a street observing people getting hit by cars, drivers breaking the law and behaving poorly. We suggest that there be a licensing process to provide some accountability and ensure that bad drivers are kept off the road, and you're jumping to "Oh, well, you want to ban everyone from driving except automotive engineers! Or let's just shut down all the car dealerships!" That's an appeal to pathos if I've ever seen one.
    – Athena
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 17:02

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