51

As you know, one of the guidelines here is we should show what we've already tried in answering our own question when we post it.

But what if the poster has good reason to believe it would take something like a semester of study for him/her to make significant (or any) headway?

Example situation: I was reading a blog post where the author presents a simple and short example in a language that I'm somewhat familiar with (ClojureScript). Then he says this example "should seem impossible to someone familiar with JavaScript". And I'd like to know what a best-practice JavaScript version would look like.

So for me to show what work I've already tried in answering this question, I'd need the ability to tackle things things on level Seems-Impossible in a language I'm not yet familiar with (JavaScript). But I know I occasionally get stuck on level Normal in a language I am familiar with (ClojureScript) and have never been accused of accomplishing anything that seems impossible.

Would it be inappropriate for me to ask the community to show me something that is over my head? If yes, where would be a better place to ask?

Edit: Re: "semester of study"

  1. I don't mean it would take a semester for someone to teach me what it takes, because I imagine the answer would involve a small number of key features (like 3) in JavaScript combined in a particular way

  2. Nor do I mean it would take me a semester to learn those 3 features by myself

  3. What I mean is it would take me a semester (or much more?) to survey all the features in JavaScript to possibly figure out which 3 features would be involved and how to combine them, especially if I'm going to get interrupted often by rogue elements in my own life situation

Edit 2: I accepted Gert Arnold but would like to also call attention to the one by @Suragch because it's what you can do first.

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  • 7
    Probably a better subject for consulting any related chat rooms first. Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 17:48
  • 6
    I think a question like that would be too much like a "do my work for me" question. It would be way too broad and outside of the scope of what this site is trying to achieve.
    – ivarni
    Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 17:50
  • 3
    So... "too broad" is a close reason where "answers would be too long for this format". If your answer requires a SEMESTER of knowledge... how do you want to fit this into the format SO wants?
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 18:28
  • 2
    my answer would require a semester of effort, not knowledge (see my comment to Servy's answer) Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 18:29
  • i.sstatic.net/i02pH.png
    – user1228
    Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 18:31
  • 3
    @user1011471 but still... how do you want to condense all that? A semester's worth of work is a LOT of new concepts you will have learned. Any answer will need to touch all these concepts, explain the basic of what you need to know, etc... Because your first part of the semester will be to learn the basics of the language... which you will obviously need explained in the answer, for it to make some sense....
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 18:35
  • In addition, best practice implies the question would be opinion based.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 20:17
  • 2
    @Patrice Not necessarily. For someone who has most of the "introductory" knowledge but no working experience, they may have no real chance of figuring it out. In an academic self study situation, it would be a full semester's worth of work perhaps to find the answer, but an experienced in the area dev would probably have the answer and could provide that answer in a very concise format, using their experience to provide the knowledge necessary. For example, in the easy answer here is ES7 async. It uses generators and promises, but hides both of those abstractions for you.
    – lassombra
    Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 23:12
  • 3
    It's a paradigm shift. Switching to a prototype-based programming language coming from a functional one will always require some time. Maybe the question you would end up asking would be a good fit on programmers.stackexchange.com
    – Knu
    Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 3:28
  • Wait a minute, ClojureScript is compiled to JavaScript. So even before you learn anything about JavaScript, you already have a working JavaScript version. So what exactly do you mean by "best-practice JavaScript version"? If you can narrow that down, maybe you can start with the ClojureScript transpiled version of the code, then ask a question about it. But in any case, "best practice" questions belong on Programmers.SE (if anywhere), not on SO. Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 18:45
  • I take your point about "best practice", but that compiled code is most likely not human-readable. It proves a machine can do the job without showing how a human would write clean code for someone else to read. Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 21:04
  • @user1011471 ....do you know that in advance without even looking at the compiled output? Commented Jul 27, 2016 at 22:40

9 Answers 9

66

To answer your question as stated in the title:

Can you ask a question you know is way over your own head?

No, because you don't know what you're asking1, as in, you probably have no idea what it takes to answer your question satisfactorily. Your question is bound to be either -

  • too broad, because you don't have the ability to wrap the question into a specific programming problem.
  • unclear, because you don't know how to describe the problem sufficiently.

Focusing on your example, questions about external blogs or tutorials are generally not too well-received at Stack Overflow. Readers, also future readers, are forced to find the problem statement in an external source. The answer may contain a solution that's incomprehensible without knowing the external source. And the link to the external source can break any moment.

A good question is stand-alone as much as possible, ideally an mcve. It's very hard to make a good question without showing own coding efforts. Consequently, it's very hard to ask a good question that's "way over your head", because you don't know where to begin trying it yourself.

More than anything, questions like this will look like academic exercises. Stack Overflow is not a good fit for such questions and I don't think any of the Stack Exchange sites are.


1 Not meaning to offend. Curiosity and a drive to venture into the unknown are commendable features. It's only that they don't come in handy at Stack Overflow...

3
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    I especially like "have no idea what it takes to answer your question satisfactorily" remark. Also the fact author of the question likely unlikely to productively participate in comments. Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 1:41
  • 3
    Plus you may not understand the answer. It's better to ask more precise specific questions. And less annoying for experts to help with those. Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 14:04
  • 3
    It's ironic... probably 80+% of the questions asked on [selenium] and [selenium-webdriver] are by people that don't have the foggiest how to do the most basic of tasks, show no research effort, or many just dump HTML and ask how do I click X. I wish we could get them closed (and closed more quickly).
    – JeffC
    Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 16:04
26

I'm going to say, yes, it is ok to ask a question that is way over your head if you also do the following:

  • Research the topic thoroughly yourself first (maybe not spending an entire semester but probably at least a day or two). Read all the related information that you can find. Even if the topic is still over your head, this will give you the vocabulary to present your question in a clear way.
  • At least attempt some code, even if this is just reproducing some code you found online. Often the attempt will open up some new doors of understanding. It will also make your question be better received on Stack Overflow.
  • Phrase your question as much as possible in a way that can be specifically answered and is non-opinion based. Even though I don't know ClosureScript or JavaScript, it seems to me that Travis J just answered your question quite succinctly and well.

I've asked a few questions here that were way over my head at the time. Even when certain questions were negatively received by some people, I've also gotten helpful comments and answers by other people. These helped me to deepen my understanding so that the next time I could ask a question that was a little less over my head.

If you make a regular practice of writing thoughtful questions following my advice above, you probably won't get question banned.

3
  • 6
    +1. I'd also add that you should take your time in writing the question; sometimes, as you're formulating it, you'll realize other lines of inquiry that you should look into first. And occasionally you'll end up not even needing to post the question: the mere exercise of making it sufficiently precise and answerable also brought you through to the point that you could figure/find out the answer yourself.
    – ruakh
    Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 3:21
  • 3
    @ruakh This is where the discipline of creating a Minimal, Complete and Verifiable example comes in. At least half of the questions I have considered posing, were self answered in the process of distilling the problem into an mcve rather than blurting the question onto SO, which seems so common. Instant gratification, it seems, is a sign of the times. Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 15:07
  • 4
    One might argue that if someone follows your three points, the topic is not way over their head anymore. But I surely wish people would do this before asking any question, actually. Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 18:57
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If it would take you a semester of study to get to the point where you could make a reasonable attempt to solve that problem, and be able to ask a specific question related to that problem, then your question is Too Broad.

An SO question isn't here to take the place of an entire college course.

6
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    I was referring to the amount of time it would take me personally to make headway, not the number of concepts involved. The question is actually very narrow -- something like "best practice in JS for consuming items in sequence from n other concurrent processes producing at different rates?" and maybe "what about 2-way communication?" Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 18:28
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    @user1011471 So you're assuming that someone on SO can teach you what you need to know to understand that in a few paragraphs, but a college professor would need a full semester to teach you enough for you to understand it? I'm not sure if you have a really high expectation of SO users, or a really low expectation of college professors, but I suspect one or both aren't realistic.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 18:30
  • 8
    @Servy, I don't think anyone thinks a college professor would need an entire semester to teach anything. But if the college professor is not specifically intending to answer the question, or the person would need a college course before being themselves able to reasonably take a crack at it, that is different. Also, a semester's worth of work doesn't indicate that the work is coming from a professor, but rather suggests either a self study or even an academic credit guided self study, not an actual college class or a professor being asked. If anything, asking SO is asking the professor.
    – lassombra
    Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 23:16
  • 2
    @lassombra Of course the premise here isn't that it would take a full semeseter just to answer the quesiton; the premise is that the person lacks the basic knowledge of the subject matter to even understand/form a question, and that all of that background information (a college course's worth) would need to be conveyed to this person before they could even understand their own question, let alone answer it. As for SO being the professor, that's simply not what SO is here for or designed to be. It's a place to ask specific questions, not a place to tutor students.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 13:15
  • 2
    I don't understand the upvotes on @Servy 's first comment. It's totally wrong about my situation. I edited the question to make that clear. It's me bumbling and possibly succeeding (after a semester) or it's an expert saying combine these 3 concepts in JS this way (which is not a semester either for explanatory effort or for study). Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 20:13
  • @user1011471 So then you're saying it wouldn't actually take you a semester of study in order to understand the question, or the answer, so the entire premise of your question is simply false. If you ask a question with a false premise, then the answer may well not help you.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 20:26
15

If you had made an answerable question on Stack Overflow I don't think it would have been too broad. Phrasing is important. Asking for clarification of process, in my opinion, as long as it is narrow and focused, shouldn't trigger the too broad response. However, the way you have phrased your meta question here it makes it seem like there is no way that someone could explain what this post is referring to in a single answer which probably isn't the case.

The comment made, "impossible", refers to multi threading in JavaScript (in a browser). Which is true, it is impossible, and the script shown doesn't do the impossible despite claims by the author.

It was a pretty broad statement in that blog. Don't always believe what you read on the internet. "No callback hell", it states (as it is a compilation tool), but underneath you will find things like Z(function(){var a=function(){return function(a){return function(){function b(d){.... compilation from this library is essentially using callbacks with a timeout that monitors them and claims that it is concurrency. It is not. It is JavaScript in a browser (node has concurrency). In the browser everything is single threaded and runs in sets of async tasks.

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  • 1
    Single threaded is not mutually exclusive with concurrency. You might confuse it with parallelism.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 15:27
  • @Bergi you can't have concurrent blocking tasks in one thread (any language), the best you can obtain is monitoring tasks delegated to another process (network calls for example), here the workload will be done by another process, so you can do some computation while waiting, with some pauses in this computation to check the result of the delegated call giving a look and fell of concurrent process.
    – Tensibai
    Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 14:31
  • 1
    @Tensibai: Who said blocking? Yes, we can have concurrent asynchronous tasks in one thread.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 16:56
  • @Bergi Concurrent is a language abuse here, they're interleaved. The only interest in having async tasks in the same thread is when at least one has to wait on something external to the thread, so it's not a problem if it has not the cpu has it does nothing, spending this wait time on doing something else is obviously a good idea, but you still have to come check if this wait task has ended, this is not concurrency as in "You can't spell two words at the same time with one mouth", you can interleave the spelling of each word so the shortest one doesn't have to wait until the longest is done.
    – Tensibai
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 12:13
  • 2
    @Tensibai That's not an abuse of language, that's exactly what concurrency means.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 18:58
  • 1
    "In the browser everything is single threaded" - But...web workers?
    – nnnnnn
    Commented Jun 29, 2017 at 3:07
4

Use the search! It very often finds something good if you know the relevant keywords, which is the case in your situation.

For this particular example, we actually already have an answer: Is it possible to convert this ClojureScript to JavaScript?

3

I would like to address "what ...already tried" part.

It's not necessarily your code (though code is preferable).

You can show what you already reviewed, studied, worked through, etc. In other words, when it's difficult to provide your own code, show the results of your research.

At the very least, we need some idea of your level of familiarity with the subject. This allows a person, who is trying to help you, avoid making assumptions and educated guesses. The answer in such case will not go into every detail in the areas you are comfortable with and visa versa. The more we know about your knowledge and skills - the higher your chances of getting an answer tailored to your individual level.

1
  • This goes against SO target of building a knowledge base. Answers should not elude things known by asker but should be self sufficient as far as I understood it.
    – Tensibai
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 13:40
1

When you know what you don't know is easier for people:

  1. Fill in the blanks
  2. For others that know what they don't know to find it

When you don't know what you know everyone has to make guesses at what exactly you don't know and it normally results in something to vague for other people to relate with the same issue and find their answers. When you approach a problem of not knowing what you don't know it isn't possible for others, that they too doesn't know what you don't know, approach the solution, which results in being very impractical in the sense that SE aims to be.

1

If the question is sufficiently vague to be hard to directly answer with a provably factual answer on stack overflow (as your example question likely is, though I would consider it borderline and would answer it if I saw it, not vote to close), then perhaps Quora is a better place for your question. It is more of a forum format which encourages thought exercises over strict factual answers. Both have their place, this question I think belongs better over there. That said, if you do ask the question, anywhere, ping us on here and let us know so we can weigh in!

-8

I can't speak on behalf of the community but personally there is very little that is "way over" anyone's head.

So just ask and let the moderators help determine if the question is worth answering. You can always object, rework the question etc..

As for the blogger whatever candy wrapper clojure and "core.async" put in between you or anyone for that matter and javascript it's is just that; candy wrapper (if not pure obfuscation) to what inevitably hhas to be run as pure js.

Here, I'll write some js async code, without a pHD, just to prove my point:

// register your function as a thread.
// use a function, not a callback.
function async_threadit(yourfunction){ 
  // this sets everything up.
  cbo=callbacks[callbacks.length]= new callbackobject(yourfunction);

}

// now to call your thread method, do this:
async_do(yourfunctionname);

// voila.

:)

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  • I thought it was funny.
    – user1135300
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 13:10
  • Anyone can write pseudocode. However, it seems you do need a phd to be consistent while writing pseudocode: function async_threadit vs async_do(yourfunctionname);. Or was that supposed to be actual JS?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 14:15
  • @Cebrus. async_threadit registers the thread. async_do starts it. rotflmho :)
    – user1135300
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 14:22
  • Still some dubious code in the _threadit. My point: Sure, anyone can code. Not everyone can write good code, though.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 14:25
  • quite dubious indeed .
    – user1135300
    Commented Jul 19, 2016 at 14:44

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