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I've just come across this question on SO: PHP round time() up (future) to next multiple of 5 minutes.

The question is:

I have recently set-up a Email Queue to stay inline with our hosts small email cap, and many users were asking if I could create a script that would tell them when their email would be delivered, I would like to know how I can round a PHP time() to the nearest 5 minute.

Currently unsure as to how I can approach this, and would really appreciate the help of people who have a better understanding.

Regards

I believe IMO this is mostly waffle that can be boiled down to:

How can I round time() to the nearest 5 minutes?

Is rewriting this question to strip out the circumstances and pleasantries (IMO waffle) an acceptable thing to do?

--

I've seen waffle removed from around questions but I am unsure regarding a question as a whole. I believe the edit would make it much more obvious at a glance (timely) what the question asks.

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    sighs - I got really excited then that someone had written a question about actual waffles... I'm disappointed now...
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 15:54
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    @JonClements I'll be careful in the future on the use of waffles, this must have been quite disappointing. Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 15:57
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    Is there a waffles tag? ..I'd follow that...especially if it had bacon.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 16:08
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    Circumstances/background may be included, but after the crux of the question is front-loaded, but the pleasantries can be dropped
    – random
    Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 16:25
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    Editing a question down to one short sentence, even if that's all it amounts to, seems likely to attract more downvotes and "what have you tried" comments. Whether or not that's a good thing depends on your perspective, I suppose, but I'm pretty sure the OP won't think it is. edit: I just noticed that question is pretty old. Maybe that isn't as relevant for older questions? Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 16:33
  • I think "relevant for older questions" is an important part of this. If it was a question within the last hour (perhaps up to a month) I'd be reluctant to make a substantial change to it. Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 18:09
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    @Paulie_D There is on MSE
    – Laurel
    Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 18:09
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    If the question's already settled, feel free to remove fluff like that. For this question, the fluff never had any value, as it doesn't demonstrate effort or illustrate the asker's problem. Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 18:27
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    Clickbaity title is click baity! Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 21:08
  • This meta question seems like mostly waffle itself. Meta-waffle! 😁 Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 11:59
  • a better question is why was it not just closed as a duplicate? why waste time editing things like this instead of closing it as a duplicate as quickly as possible.
    – user177800
    Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 22:07
  • Why even bother on a 4 year old question? Seems like it was fine as it was for this long...
    – rjdown
    Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 22:14
  • Seriously, though: where are the waffles?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 11:30
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    Some people take their interest in moderating stuff waaaaay too seriously - generally an indication that there's not much else going on in their lives, I guess. The idea that user-specific context should be removed because some neckbeard doesn't like witticisms is literally a distillation of everything that's wrong with (some parts of) tech. Like all power, the ability to edit-away user's thoughts should be reposed only in those who don't relish it. Suggested edit for OP: "I'm a control freak with no life: can I re-write stuff the way I want it?" - see? much shorter.
    – GT.
    Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 6:10

3 Answers 3

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Yes, that's totally ok, as long as you're really sure you're not cutting away anything that might be relevant to the solution.

For many users who are new to the system, having their stuff edited (especially when it's a massive edit) feels like an invasion of privacy. The general expectation on the web is that what you write is allowed to stay as it is. People tend to get angry and defensive, to the point of an edit war, even if your edit makes the question objectively better. It's human nature.

To avoid this, be as nice about it as possible: avoid using words like "fluff" (or "waffles") when describing the content you removed; also consider leaving a comment explaining to the user what you did and why, something like

Hi! I edited your question and removed some bits that I think aren't directly connected with the issue at hand. If I accidentally removed something that is essential to your core question, feel free to edit again!

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  • The question is further clarified by a comment, would I be correct in leaving the question as it's original intent and not correcting it in light of the comment? I believe leaving the intent is the correct course of action if editing the question at all. Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 16:02
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    @William it's really important to have the question as clear as possible!
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 16:03
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    @WilliamIsted One of the core purposes of editing is to move information the post author has posted in comments into the post, so yes, you can edit information the author posted in a comment into the question.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 16:04
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    @WilliamIsted In this case, the question isn't clarified by the comment, it's changed (from round-to-nearest to round-up). Searchers who see the (old, I edited it already) title would be disappointed by the accepted answer, which answers the changed question. Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 18:25
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    When I leave a comment, I like to provide a link to my edit and also use the magic edit link to aid the OP in how they can fix their question if I broke it.
    – Tas
    Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 21:36
  • I have made probably upwards of two thousand edits across the network to primarily remove fluff, and in at least half of the edit summaries have specifically said that I was blowing away fluff. So far, I haven't noticed any worse reaction to that than to the alternative wording of "removed thanks" etc. (And I've only had one or two bad reactions to fluff removal at all, which compares favorably to my maybe three or four total bad reactions.) Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 1:43
  • @Nathan Hmm. You never get a string of 2-5 downvotes on questions you've asked? They all come at once, fairly soon after making an edit or leaving a comment, but not enough of them to trigger the serial downvote reversal script. It happens to me on occasion, and to several other veteran users I've talked to. Maybe we're just bigger assholes?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 11:32
  • @CodyGray: It probably helps that I only have questions on some accounts. Still, I'm not sure that's the only reason. Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 16:07
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I don't know what is "proper" etiquette, but I would also urge you to remember that the user asking the question needs help and the way we communicate that need for help is very much like building a wall. Some walls are simple, and well-built, and stand on their own. You can assume that your understanding of the problem domain is like this wall. Sometimes though, we need scaffolding to build a wall. It will eventually do everything a wall should, but without that scaffolding, the wall will collapse before you can finish building it. The user's understanding of the problem domain may be like this second example, and the way they communicate the problem domain may be like the scaffolding. (For example, these metaphors I am using.) By removing the scaffolding, you may be hurting rather than helping their efforts to build their wall.

Just my 2 cents.

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    Are you saying that the person who posted the original question wouldn't think How can I round time() to the nearest 5 minutes? is still the same question? That seems unlikely. I think you're talking about the case where a user doesn't know the technical language required to ask what they really want to know, and express it clearly. i.e. they're so confused about the subject area that they can't even ask the question the way someone that knows the answer would. In cases like that, I try to keep some of their original language as keywords for future searches, but seriously tidy up. Commented Jul 15, 2016 at 23:46
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    However, sometimes it's important not to remove the context. When there are many different ways to do something, the right choice can depend on what kind of use-case we're talking about. That doesn't seem to be what you're talking about. re: my previous comment, I've had people thank me for rewriting their question, saying things like "thanks, I didn't know how to ask this". (usually when it was a question about how CPUs work, not how to do a specific programming task like round a time.) But as long as the question is still understandable by the person that asked it, it's good to edit. Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 0:06
  • @PeterCordes, not really, no. I actually mean that our recognition of a subject is often dependent on cues. You can drive to the store a 1000 times, then one day pass it by because this time you came on to it from the other direction. The store's location didn't move, but your visual cues were different and your brain didn't pick up on it as quickly. I am not saying that no one will see the simplicity in the edited text, just that the original poster may not, we are all human, and he or she was the one in need of help in the first place. Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 4:11
  • Well, if the OP doesn't even recognize their question, it's probably a bad edit. It might take some time for the asker to wrap their head around the correct terminology and maybe a different way of looking at their problem to fully understand the edit, but enough of the original language describing the problem (rather than the motivation) should be there in most cases for the benefit of other searchers confused in the same way as the asker. Commented Jul 16, 2016 at 4:20
  • Perhaps rephrasing the question above the original one without actually removing the original question would be a better edit? I'm still not sure on how to get across to a user that their question wasn't bad, just a bit indirect. Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 9:04
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Rewording the title to make the problem clearer is fine. But I wouldn't completely remove the "waffle" like you did.

Rewriting a question to make the "unwaffle" stand out is fine, but I feel that removing the waffle altogether is a dangerous (and slightly rude) thing to do, for a couple of reasons.

  • "Waffle" is somewhat subjective; what's "waffle" to you may be important differentiating context for someone else, which might prove useful to the asker. Or, equally, it will prevent answers that have nothing to do with his / her circumstances (e.g. "why don't you just use a kitchen timer instead"). So, removing the "waffle" altogether is doing a disservice.
  • the "waffle" is essentially the politeness of the request, and a statement of "I have actually tried to consider this myself, but I'm unsure how to proceed". I feel that the bias here is that, this is only unwanted information for you after you have read it and decided you want to help. But others arriving at the question who don't see this information will inevitably just give the horrendous "have you tried googling it" answer.

I would feel a lot more comfortable if you had just done the equivalent of inserting a "tl;dr" version first, e.g.

My question is: How can I round time() to the nearest 5 minutes?

The context for this is, I have recently set-up a Email Queue [...]

But, then again, that's what the title is for, right?

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    actually, the original post is a good example of when waffle is context. The context of a mail server prompted answerers to point out that he should specifically be asking for rounding up to future times, rather than a general rounding answer. Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 9:23
  • Waffle that is merely a politeness but has no other function has been widely agreed to be something that can be edited out, for some years. "Thanks", "please help me", "I have spent days on this", "Thanks in advance", "I have Googled alot but was not able to solve it", etc. Only if notes about having tried something are specific (i.e. what was tried and how it fell short) does this become useful.
    – halfer
    Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 9:36
  • However, as to this particular question, the new version without the waffle is so short I would normally vote to close as off-topic/lazy. In this case there is probably some leniency however, since it is from 2012, when the rules were a lot more lenient.
    – halfer
    Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 9:39
  • I get the point about "polite waffle", but my point is, the new version is not only "short", it also omitted vital information, supposedly as waffle. If you look at the page, there's a number of people giving the wrong answer because the "email" information has been edited out of the question. And in fact, the accepted answer only makes sense in the context of the previous "waffle". The answerer even says "I think this is the version you need based on your description " Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 9:48
  • The phrase I think that this is what you need - based on your description was added in 2012, prior to waffle removal. However I moderately agree about the "email" information - I don't know if it would definitely shape answers in a different way, but it is concrete enough that there's no harm it staying.
    – halfer
    Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 9:52
  • (Someone who feels strongly about this would be welcome to liaise with Jeffrey on that page, or to make an edit and add a post-hoc invitation for Jeffery to edit again if he wishes).
    – halfer
    Commented Jul 17, 2016 at 9:53
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    +1 The "tl;dr" sounds like a constructive method. I do believe IMHO that once discussion on a question has naturally ended, (6 months+) that the question takes on a different role than to find the solution (if it has a solution) and instead people are trying to find (search for) the right question which will have the answer they're looking for. Commented Jul 18, 2016 at 9:12

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