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Currently, a post deleted by community through a validated spam/offensive flag or by 6 user flags incurs a -100 reputation penalty for the user, as well as kicks off several automatic rate-limiting and automated ban algorithms.

Generally speaking, a spammer that starts spamming gets stopped very quickly here, with or without the -100 rep penalty.

Now, the reason why I'm asking this is because of the recent discussions on the use of the red flags. I think we are more or less in agreement as a community (feel free to discuss aswell) that we should only bring out the red flags against users who are clearly not interested in rational contributions to the site. On several occasions, you can see moderators and users commenting their agreement to pretty much use these flags only on users with no other meaningful contributions, and go for a modflag or a comment first otherwise. (See the comments below this answer for an example of that)

I believe that the -100 reputation penalty for red flags is currently the weakest part of the signal that comes from those, and that it can be actively harmful in some cases.

Consider a well meaning user, someone who does not quite realise what our rules on self promotion are. The user wants to contribute, and has done so a fair bit. Now they post something which borders on spam (inappropiate self promotion). In the current scenario it can likely happen that this user will get their post nuked, and, since they have further contributions, don't get a instant post ban for it. That user has now lost 100 rep, and even if there was a comment pointing them to the resources to see how to correct their mistake, that mistake just cost them days and possibly weeks of work.

We know human nature, and negative reinforcement always works less well then positive reinforcement in that sense. That's why we comment instead of nuke, why we try to educate instead of simply downvote.

So, my proposal is:

If we are in agreement that red flags should only be used on posts clearly strictly destructive or unwanted, with absolutely no redeeming value, then I propose to abolish the -100 penalty from the spam and offensive flags altogether, since it is superflous in most cases and arguably harmful in some.

We all agree that spam needs to be dealt with and spammers need to be blocked effectively, and our site does that, very well in fact. But I think the -100 penalty is in this case useless given the spammers we deal with, and sometimes harmful for users that we could have made to care and contribute constructively.

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    But everyone knows that if we can't nuke 'em, the terrorists win! Seriously though - does this happen regularly, innocent (or ignorant) users getting nuked as opposed to bona fide spammers?
    – Pekka
    Jun 22, 2016 at 9:40
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    @Pekka웃 I've seen it happen at least 4 or 5 times now. On the contrary between a good 400 valid spam flags I've cast to date I have yet to see a case where the -100 penalty mattered at all. Usually in the cases where its a legit user with a honest mistake we then need to modflag the thing and get the mod to clear the spamflags. I don't think thats necessary
    – Magisch
    Jun 22, 2016 at 9:41
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    Hmm, I can see where that is coming from. The large rep deduction is primary useful to elicit a strong response from the victim if the flag is used inappropriately. When you use nuclear weapons then you'll have to deal with the fallout. Jun 22, 2016 at 9:51
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    FWIW if moderator finds about incorrect spam penalty they undo all the harm, including wrong rep penalty: "If you did find yourself in a situation where a post was inappropriately deleted as spam or offensive, you can flag the post and use a custom flag to explain the situation. A moderator can clear all spam/offensive flags, automatically unlocking and undeleting the post, as well as clearing any penalties from the deletion."
    – gnat
    Jun 22, 2016 at 9:52
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    The -100 could be applied after the second spam post only
    – Fabich
    Jun 22, 2016 at 9:54
  • @HansPassant In that case its rather counter that the deduction doesn't appear in the rep history, from what I've seen. And no ping is generated either.
    – Magisch
    Jun 22, 2016 at 9:55
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    I agree that user with rep should not be spam flagged, I prefer custom moderator flag, however the rep penalty put pressure on rep users to have good behavior and encourage all of us to follow the straight line. Jun 22, 2016 at 9:58
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    Also, depending on the dedication of the spammer, the -100 rep penalty also prevents the account from doing any other harm to the community by possibly revoking privileges earned. For example, it can remove the embedded images privilege in case spammers also start small voting rings within throwaway accounts.
    – ryanyuyu
    Jun 22, 2016 at 12:54
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    I'd need to see data on this before I could get behind it. Are there cases where this has been actively harmful? Conversely, are there no cases where losing 100 rep cost a harmful user their privileges? Jun 22, 2016 at 13:01
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    I'd wager (no concrete proof, only CMs have access to that data afaik) that the automated IP block and autoban mechanics of multiple spam destructions were strictly the thing that stopped people from fooling around more.
    – Magisch
    Jun 22, 2016 at 16:08
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    @BilltheLizard I was also initially thinking about asking for stats but then I figured that current data will become irrelevant in the context of proposed change. I mean, even if we suppose the worst, that penalties harm many innocent users this won't suffice to justify getting rid of them - because if we do so, spammers would change tactics and make really awful harm: "set up a voting ring, inflate their rep to hop over new user rate limits and quickly flood the site with massive amounts of spam posts"
    – gnat
    Jun 22, 2016 at 18:08
  • similar discussion at MSE: -100 rep penalty effectiveness for spam?
    – gnat
    Sep 27, 2017 at 9:20

2 Answers 2

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I think it's worth revisiting this penalty and see if it still serves a useful purpose on the current Stack Exchange sites. The 100-point reputation penalty from validated spam and offensive flags is an artifact of a time before current anti-spam and anti-trolling measures. It was intended to drop a user down to a reputation of 1 and use reputation barriers to block them from posting comments, etc.

In reality, almost all true spammers don't get above 10 rep or so before they are caught and destroyed. Same with pure trolls. The immediate intelligent IP blocks put in place by a validated spam or offensive flag stop posts by new users at that location (and do a really good job of this), and destroying spam accounts now lock those account credentials from being reused.

The most annoying spammers and trolls aren't impacted by reputation at all, they just create account after account as each is blocked (one reason I asked this). The 100-rep penalty does nothing for these folks.

On the flipside, validated spam flags have caused harm to legitimate users. Here is one recent example of a misunderstanding leading to a new user losing all their reputation due to a validated offensive flag. While very rare, I have encountered voting rings attempting to coordinate spam / offensive flags to destroy competing answers. A couple succeeded at this. Not a large number by any means, but you'd be surprised at how often people throw around spam / offensive flags at posts they simply don't like or that compete with theirs.

This was a much larger problem when active spam / offensive flags were shown to 10k users. People would blindly pile on flags for anything that appeared in that list, and many innocent users were hit with this penalty as a result. For example, here's what happened to a 50k user when a group of folks decided that they didn't like his posts and spam-flagged a ton of them, with 10k users rubber-stamping them:

Validated spam flag penalties

As a result of these kind of excesses, spam flags were hidden from 10k users. It's rare today to see innocent users being hit with 100-point penalties, but it does happen.

I guess the question is: does this penalty do anything on the modern site to stop spammers, and does this offset the handful of people hit by false positives? I don't know, and it probably requires some stats, but I think it's worth discussing.

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    The only use case I could personally see for it was if a semi-high rep user went out of line heavily. But isn't it customary to have moderators deal with this, nowadays? The two times I've actually seen that in my entire time here I raised modflags and the mods dealt with the problem with short time temporary suspensions.
    – Magisch
    Jun 22, 2016 at 16:05
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Based on my own experience I share your concern and would want system to account for it (more on that below). But the particular way you suggest looks like a bad idea because it opens a door for a very painful system abuse.

Thing is, rep penalty is intended not to punish but to throttle. Without it, a determined spammer could set up a voting ring, inflate their rep to hop over new user rate limits and quickly flood the site with massive amounts of spam posts.

Rep deduction prevents just that, it quickly drops spammers rep so that they bump into rate limit which gives moderators time to completely stop them before they do more harm.


Does above mean that current system should stay as is? No, and here is why. Your concern about collateral damage done by incorrect spam flags, it is for real - such mistakes happen and I observed them myself, and I would want system to get better means to handle such mistakes.

One such case was particularly enlightening. I saw a clear cut spam answer and flagged it and added comment referring to "how to not be a spammer" guidance from help center so that other users could easy see what's wrong and flag appropriately. But the author turned to be not malicious, they read the guidance themselves, figured what's wrong and quickly edited their post into a sensible answer!

I was lucky that I noticed their edit and pinged moderator in chat asking them to decline my flag but I would really want such corrections to be based on something more reliable than luck.


Worth noting that even after spam deletion, if (if) moderator finds about incorrect spam deletion they can undo all the harm, including wrong rep penalty:

If you did find yourself in a situation where a post was inappropriately deleted as spam or offensive, you can flag the post and use a custom flag to explain the situation. A moderator can clear all spam/offensive flags, automatically unlocking and undeleting the post, as well as clearing any penalties from the deletion.

You see, moderators have all needed tools to correct things in case of mistake. I would only prefer that discovery of such mistakes would be easier because not every user (especially inexperienced one) can figure that they can flag their (deleted!) post and ask for help. Users with less than 15 rep can't even flag, go figure.

One thing that comes to mind is to make system raise automatic flag for mod to re-check potentially troublesome spam deletions - that is, when these carry rep penalty and maybe even happen on edited posts (if memory serves in my example author didn't yet have any rep). Probably such flags are needed when deletion is done by regular users without mod involvement - diamond mods may make mistakes too but I assume that this happens too rarely to worry about.

Additional bonus of such flag would be that even when rep penalty is fair it may bring mod attention to potential voting fraud (it's quite likely that spammers try such fraud even now, when penalties make it less painful to handle their abuse).

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