130

Change the wording of

Thanks for the feedback! Once you earn a total of 125 reputation, your votes will change the publicly displayed post score.

to

Thanks for the feedback! Once you earn a total of 125 reputation, you may down-vote questions/answers.

This question is based on Your vote will count once you earn 125 rep, does this work?. .

Edit: ".. votes will change .." is the part that has to be changed in the above statement, since they don't change. The user just gets the privilege to down-vote.

You may also change it to a straight version:

Thanks for the feedback! You may vote to change the post score only after gaining 125 reputation.

Another alternative:

Thanks for the feedback! Once you earn a total of 125 reputation, your future votes will change the publicly displayed post score.

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  • 9
    Open to changes here, but not changes that reduce the amount of information conveyed. Remember, this is shown primarily to folks who have no experience on these sites - so don't expect them to know how things like voting and reputation work.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:48
  • 67
    @Shog9 yes, but the current wording is wrong. "Once you earn a total of 125 reputation, your votes will change the publicly displayed post score" means it would reflect later. But it wouldn't!
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:50
  • 3
    Once you earn 125 reputation, your votes do change the publicly displayed post score, @Ani. You're interpreting the message as referring to all previous anonymous "votes", but it doesn't actually say anything about that.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:52
  • 60
    "..your votes will change.." means it would all change later.
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:53
  • 4
    The replacement text is just wrong though as the "pseudo downvotes" are captured as feedback available to 10Ks and moderators, they just don't change the publicly displayed post score. Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:55
  • 9
    @RobertLongson The replacement text maybe changed but the current one is certainly wrong.
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:56
  • 1
    how about ",your votes will begin to change the publically displayed post score." Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:58
  • 3
    @RobertLongson thats better. Its best if we eliminate the ".. votes will change .." part as the votes don't change, you just get the privilege to down-vote.
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:04
  • 11
    So the big issue here is that I intended "will change" to refer to an effect that would be triggered by votes cast in a future where the voter has earned 125 reputation, while you're interpreting it as a change that would happen to votes cast today in a similar future. Starting to think this needs to go on English Language & Usage
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:10
  • 3
    Maybe just add a sentence to the end of the existing text: (This is not retroactive.)
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:15
  • 11
    or "Thanks for the feedback! Votes cast after you reach 125 reputation, will change the publicly displayed post score." Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:18
  • 21
    @Shog9 that sounds... really quite patronising, actually. I'm a native English speaker and read the post exactly the same as the OP (+1), thinking that my votes would retroactively take effect once I gained sufficient rep. Only after passing that barrier did I realise that wasn't true and the label is pointlessly ambiguous. Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 0:56
  • 2
    Your interpretation of the current wording doesn't make much sense. Why would you assume that your feedback would be retroactively applied as a vote? The grammatical interpretation is consistent with the reality: votes cast once you reach a total of 125 reputation will change the post's public score. Even understanding the way you are interpreting it, I can't find a way to convince myself that that interpretation makes logical or grammatical sense.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 4:38
  • 4
    @CodyGray That would assume knowledge that the votes are not really votes. If it means their votes are hidden until 125 reputation, it makes sense that they'd 'retroactively' update - since we're told they're hidden rather than not actually votes
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 4:50
  • 5
    @underscore_d I think you're confusing English Language & Usage with English Language Learners. Whether you're a native speaker or not is irrelevant, the current wording is simply ambiguous.
    – Ajedi32
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 21:11

6 Answers 6

26

Based on the discussion on CWilson's answer, the wording has been updated to the more accurate (albeit more passive), "Thanks for the feedback! Votes cast by those with less than #repRequired# reputation are recorded, but do not change the publicly displayed post score."

This should be visible after the next build.

Please remember that votes from anyone who hasn't yet earned the up-vote or down-vote privileges are available for your analysis in the regular public data dumps and via Data Explorer in the PostFeedback table.

Thanks to Michael Stum for making this change!

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  • 5
    The real question that needs answer is, did English Language & Usage pitch in?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 1:44
  • 2
    Uh-oh! Apparently you need to change it to "[Up|Down]votes cast [...]" meta.stackexchange.com/questions/280779/… ;-P Commented Jul 2, 2016 at 23:23
  • 8
    Why the answer get accepted, it is still just as ambiguous as it was. Votes cast […] are recorded, but do not change the publicly displayed post scorewhere is it recorded? Since votes are anonymous, it is probably recorded to be applied as enough reputation earned, right?
    – Hi-Angel
    Commented Jul 5, 2016 at 10:28
  • 1
    Also, they don't change anything public, not just the post score but the user's rep as well.
    – davidism
    Commented Jul 5, 2016 at 20:29
  • 1
    It would require something like: (..) but do not **(and won't)** change the publicly displayed post score. to explicitly say that once you achieve 125 rep they will still not be displayed; because it still sounds like that to me.
    – xDaizu
    Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 11:23
  • I just got this message, and the "fixed" one is still completely unclear. Worse, the help page linked from the message doesn't explain it either. Googling lead me here. It would be nice if this could be fixed. Commented Feb 10, 2018 at 4:11
  • I just had to spend 15 minutes searching and reading to find out whether my votes will be applied once I reach 125 score. The wording is so wrong and the link to KB is useless. What an outrage!
    – Qwerty
    Commented Nov 12, 2019 at 10:00
147

Wait what, they don't?

I have signed up on some Stack Exchange sites that I just read in the past just to vote on some stuff, thinking that maybe in the future when I got around to getting some rep my votes would have counted. Now you are telling me they don't? Then the wording must change. Because right now, the wording suggest that you are actually voting, but the votes are not displayed until you gain 125 rep. If that isn't what's happening (you don't vote, it just gets in some 10k queue, and when you finally gain 125 rep, the vote still doesn't show), then the current text is just absolutely misleading.

I'm certainly not new on Stack Exchange and have experience on several sites with voting and reputation systems, and if even I can't decipher what the button does without stumbling across a meta post by accident that explains that what I thought that meant was completely wrong, then how can anybody think a new user, who has absolutely no idea even what votes and reputation are, could understand that?

I strongly suggest improving the message. Something like

Once you earn a total of 125 reputation, your future votes will change the publicly displayed post score

would be enough to convey the information that the current vote will never do anything unless explicitly voted again once the user hits 125 reputation points.

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    "Then the wording must change." - no, it really doesn't have to. It probably should be improved, but I doubt many people even read that text, no less try to understand what it means.
    – hichris123
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 21:03
  • 64
    @hichris123 It's pretty damn hard not to read that text, seeing as it pops up in a big blue button. Being that visible, it should at least be accurately worded, instead of hopelessly ambiguous. Who cares if a few hypothetical people have sufficiently low attention-span not to see it? SE is clearly not doing any of this for them. But the vast majority of people who aren't completely oblivious will get a much better picture of things. Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 0:58
  • 1
    @underscore_d You'd be surprised how little people read... in any case, the point I was making is that this is not a priority. Very few people with user accounts submit post feedback (that is, their vote doesn't count because they don't have enough rep). There are much more important things that should be worked on, and stating that the wording "must" change is overstating things a bit.
    – hichris123
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 3:29
  • 6
    @hichris123 - There's no mention of priorities in Poly's answer at all. "The wording has to be changed" is what I got from it. Whether that be in 1 hour, 1 week or 10 years is really up to the SE team. We can vote for things we feel are important sure, but at the end of the day it has to fit into their roadmap :)
    – Robotnik
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 4:53
  • 5
    @hichris123 Obviously we're not talking about changing wording for whatever proportion of people don't bother to read the words... We're talking about better informing those who do, who clearly want to understand. And no one said this (A) should take priority over anything more serious or (B) would take longer than a few minutes in reality, probably. I can't believe I have to point all this out. Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 11:50
  • @underscore_d I think you completely missed the point of my last comment: this occurs to very few people with registered user accounts (about 100/day). Further, again, stating that something "has" to change is overstating it a bit... it should be changed, but it doesn't have to be changed.
    – hichris123
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 11:53
  • Re: "if even I can decipher". Don't you mean "if even I can not decipher"? Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 2:28
  • @PeterMortensen Yes, edited.
    – Polygnome
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 8:44
50

I had been lurking for years prior to creating this recent account, and so some messages remain new to me. When I downvote currently, forgetting I don't have that privilege yet, I am always confused by the displayed text. And it isn't because of a English vocabulary or grammar deficiency on my part.

I second the need for a change. I recognize the need for specific suggestions, as "change" without specific suggestion doesn't work well in an environment like SE.

Thank you for the feedback! Votes cast by those with less than 125 reputation do not change the publicly displayed post score, but are visible to moderators.

I think that, in this case, it is sufficient to 'lump' together 10K under the term 'moderators'. On the other hand, the subordinate clause may not be necessary at all, and I think it could read fine without, as well. With the clause, it might make the new user feel heard, without actually giving or promising anything. That may not always be a good thing...?

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    +1; I like the phrasing you provided. Except I would change "those" to "users" Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 19:36
  • 1
    No, this would only further confuses people on what a "moderator" actually is on Stack Exchange. (Also, I don't believe this is a part of the 10k tools anymore? I know you can query for it in data.stackexchange.com though)
    – hichris123
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 20:58
  • @hichris123 I don't know if it's on the 10K tools on stack overflow, but I can see it on programming puzzles and code golf.
    – DJMcMayhem
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 0:12
  • Please everyone (lol) by swapping "moderator" for something more general like certain privileged users, and this looks pretty good. It both dispels the prospect that the downvote might later be applied retroactively, and it gets rid of any vagueness around the "publicly displayed" qualifier. Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 1:05
  • 41
    How about, "Votes cast by those with less than 125 reputation are recorded, but do not change the publicly displayed post score"?
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 1:18
  • 1
    @Shog9 Yes, That's an option.
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 3:10
  • 2
    @Shog9 What are those recorded (but not displayed) votes used for? I believe they're in the same boat as upvotes for < 15rep? I apologize if that has been shared elsewhere.
    – CubeJockey
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 15:45
  • @user1354557 You are probably right... I like the way I talk, but not everyone talks like me. Then again, what about sites that aren't IT oriented? Has 'user' become an ubiquitous enough term that visitors to cooking or parenting sites will consider themselves 'users'? Of course, we are posting on meta.SO, so this point is likely moot.
    – CWilson
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 19:21
  • 1
    @underscore_d I think that might work if another link were added to the message... because without context, 'certain privileged users' doesn't explain anything, and sounds pretty funny, I think. The term moderator has penetrated our vocabulary sufficiently to assume, I think, that anyone visiting this site will have some sort of idea what that means, and that idea will have relation to reality. More accurate, less specific terms (like your suggestion, which I know is just off the cuff) add ambiguity in other ways than the OP problem... but ways that are more easily researched.
    – CWilson
    Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 19:30
  • 7
    Ok. I've added this to the TODO list then. It's a long list, and this isn't anywhere near the top, but eventually it'll get changed.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 2:03
  • 2
    @Shog9 These votes "are recorded"? Really? In what sense? I notice that if I click on downvote repeatedly (in another stackexchange site in which I have only 101 rep) it gives me the same info dialog over and over. That makes me think the downvote is not being recorded in any way that is meaningful to the user, so telling the user it's being recorded would have no value-- in fact it would have negative value since it would set users like me on a headspin wondering what you're talking about.
    – Don Hatch
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 2:17
  • 3
    @RobertLongson Since I have <10K, I have no idea what's behind that link. Care to share? Do you see a record of every time a <125 user ineffectually bangs on the downvote icon? In any case, whatever logs you can see in there are irrelevant to that <125 user, since banging on the downvote icon changes no state for them. So it doesn't make sense to mention anything about those logs in this info bubble in which we're trying to say something relevant and un-confusing to the user. RIght?
    – Don Hatch
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 10:31
  • 1
    @DonHatch There's a public query on Data.SE here which will give you details of anonymous post feedback for a specific question / answer. AFAIK this data isn't used for anything other than showing it to 10k users. Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 12:38
  • 3
    @JonasCz Still clear as mud. Do you hi-rep people realize that when a <125 user clicks on the downvote button, there is no change in ui state? So, what makes you think you're recording something meaningful when the user bangs on it 100 times consecutively? Does it (a) imperceptibly add 100 to the secret downvote count? (b) imperceptibly toggle the downvote 100 times, for a net effect of 0? (c) imperceptibly record first click as a downvote, and ignore subsequent clicks? If so, does subsequent upvote clear alleged invisible downvote? Invisible downvote does not clear upvote. What a mess.
    – Don Hatch
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 13:43
  • 1
    @DonHatch, Yes, I know that the UI doesn't change, and yes, I totally agree that it's confusing. I don't know the answers to your questions though. Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 13:51
10

Simple!

Thanks for the feedback! Your votes cast after gaining a total of 125 reputation will change the publicly displayed post score.

If at all a change that small is needed.

Most of the suggestions on this page make heavy use of you. We don't really have to stress it that much. When one has to tell users about a privilege that they lack it is advisable not to make the statements revolve around you. In most cases, only one you is enough.

For example in one of the suggestions, Votes cast by users will have broader cultural acceptance than Votes cast by those.

Also , I believe, the language suggested in this answer has common usage across many voting systems. We don't often see Your Future votes cast after Sunday will be counted. Whereas, We regularly hear Votes cast after 7 PM on 31st December, 2015 will not be counted towards the result.

A Google search also suggests this structure has widespread usage.

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    Although it's probably less ambiguous on some technical level, this doesn't help much, especially to non-native speakers, I imagine. Pretend you're reading it and then you mentally insert commas (which is reasonable, since so many writers omit them in cases where they should be used) after "cast" and "reputation". Oops: we're back to the original problem. Anyway, this should probably be just a comment, since the bulk of it is you quoting a comment elsewhere in this very thread. Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 7:37
  • 1
    How about "Votes you cast after gaining a total of 125 reputation will change the post's score"? (Reinstate the 'publicly displayed' if need be, though I'm not sure that there's a meaningful 'private, undisplayed' score.) Commented Jun 16, 2016 at 17:02
  • Yes, not even sure if letting new users know that there is also a private post score is important. Commented Jun 16, 2016 at 17:06
0

Is there any possibility of changing the SE behavior to match what the language implies?

I realize new users might go a little downvote-crazy before they have substantial experience with the community and understand what a downvote carries with it, but perhaps past downvotes could be presented to the user for review when they hit 125 reputation, maybe as something that becomes available in their Activity pane.

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    It is possible, although not likely to happen any time soon. Ironically, we picked the message we did to avoid implying such behavior since implementing it would be complicated and thus unlikely... Yet again, fate mocks me.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 2:06
  • @Shog9 it would be complicated??? I find the solution very easy, you just need to create one more object for the user_account named as "downvotes_not_casted", make it an array and add inside all the ID's of the posts that the user downvoted before he reached 125 reputation. And simply when he does, display a message that says that if he/she wants to make these downvotes count he has to review them again. Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 9:08
  • 2
    We already store them, @hedgehog. Displaying them somewhere would be a start. Then dealing with reputation effects, avoiding false triggers for serial voting, etc.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 14:24
  • @Shog9 then it much more easier that i thought, you can actually trigure the notification for reviewing when the user gets the badge that allows him/her to downvote.... sounds pretty easy, and you can make the reviewing in a sub-panel so you wouldnt actually have to change any part of the exhisting code of the main interface. Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 14:28
  • 6
    Look around, hedgehog. See this massive discussion sparked by a few words in a fairly unimportant part of the interface? Now you're talking about a much, much more complicated UI with all-new guidance and messaging, shown to thousands of people... Ain't nothing easy about that.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 14:43
  • 3
    Pretty sure exactly the opposite happens with new users. I've never seen one go downvote-crazy. They always go upvote-crazy. I'm also bothered by the implication here that one should vote with an "understand[ing of] what a downvote carries with it." That is almost entirely misguided; votes should be based exclusively on the content of the post, not concerns about who the user is, what effect the vote will have on him/her, etc. If you are hesitating to downvote because you're worried about reputation, then you are doing it wrong.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 15:45
  • @CodyGray A very good point. I'm referring mostly to the fact that downvotes cost 1 reputation to the voter (and 2 to the recipient), which I didn't know until the first time I clicked it and saw the message this whole question debating. SE does also say to “Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps dangerously incorrect.” It’s not that one should refrain from downvoting, but that the cause for doing so is higher than I had thought as a brand new user.
    – Jacob Ford
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 15:52
-23

Declining this for now. I'm open to changes here, but not changes that reduce the amount of information conveyed. Remember, this is shown primarily to folks who have no experience on these sites - so don't expect them to know how things like voting and reputation work.

Current message tries to at least convey a working knowledge of what voting gets you, namely the ability to "change the publicly displayed post score". Your proposed alternative doesn't. If you don't already know what this means, then the message is just jargon.

Folks - particularly folks who already know how all of this works - tend to get hung up on the wording here, assuming that it means voting will become retroactive at 125 rep or something. If that's your concern, then focus on eliminating the ambiguity without destroying the educational purpose of the message.

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    The message proposed maybe changed to whatever is best fit but the current message conveys the wrong idea that their votes are carried forward and will reflect one day.
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:58
  • The message as it exists may be changed to whatever is best fit if we find something that's actually a better fit. "Change the message to something" isn't actionable; personally, I'm skeptical that there's a concise message that does a better job than the one in place, but if someone manages to come up with one then we can talk.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 17:59
  • 2
    How about, "your votes will count after 125reps"? just remove the "..votes will change.." part which is misleading.
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:02
  • 1
    @AniMenon They still do count though in the sense that they are recorded and can be viewed by some people. Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:06
  • 3
    That's just wrong, @Ani. First off, all votes are counted, regardless of rep level. Second, we don't re-count them after you hit 125 rep, so it suffers from the same problem you're hoping to fix. Finally, it fails to mention the critical difference between voting at no-/low-rep and voting at privilege: once you've earned the voting privileges, your votes affect the post's score.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:07
  • 1
    How about: "You may vote to change the post score only after gaining 125reps"? That's straight & not misleading in anyway.
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:10
  • 47
    Or you just add one word : "Once you earn a total of 125 reputation, your future votes will change the publicly displayed post score." Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:14
  • 1
    @SuperPeanut Yes, that would work too.
    – Ani Menon
    Commented Jun 13, 2016 at 18:15
  • 5
    I floated around SE for months before finally making an account and becoming active in answering, asking, and voting. By that point I very much understood how voting and reputation worked. I suspect there are plenty others like me. Until a few minutes ago I definitely thought my past downvotes were waiting in a queue to be factored into answer scores once I hit 125, which should be in a fortnight or two.
    – Jacob Ford
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 1:57
  • Do the votes affect the reputation of the person who wrote the post?
    – RaminS
    Commented Jun 15, 2016 at 22:16
  • 1
    @gen No, votes don't affect reputation on Meta.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 16, 2016 at 9:41

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