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I'm an experienced VHDL designer, but sometimes I have questions, too.

Many of my questions in the topic of VHDL receive a -1 downvote right after posting them on SO. There was never a comment stating any dislike, off-topic notice, silliness, or what ever. I suspect that I get these downvotes in the review process, because it's mostly within several minutes after asking the question. As I have enough reputation to see close votes, there is no pending close vote for my question.

Here is my newest question, which received a downvote.

Yes, in this case I found the answer by myself, but this questions documents a strange behavior/bug in a commonly used software.

How to deal with it? Is it always the same user voting me down?

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  • 9
    Isn't it better to ask about VHDL at electronics.stackexchange.com ? Commented May 4, 2016 at 2:32
  • 104
    It looks like it's not just you. About 40% of the most recent vhdl questions have at least one downvote. That seems like more than normal. Is there perhaps a group roaming around that considers VHDL questions off-topic for some reason? Commented May 4, 2016 at 2:34
  • 20
    If they're code related questions, they shouldn't be considered off-topic. (But you might get better answers on a more specialized site, so consider that too.)
    – Laurel
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 2:46
  • 20
    Yes, VHDL questions are split across SO and EE. We more advanced users (rep > 1000) decide where to ask and advise others to move there question if it's more algorithm / programing related or more hardware / electrical related to the appropriate site.
    – Paebbels
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 2:56
  • 25
    @BilltheLizard Can you track it a person or group? Can you correlate it to 0..30 minutes after asking? Maybe you should check Verilog, too. I noticed that new users get down votes even for good and detailed questions, too.
    – Paebbels
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 3:05
  • 13
    It seems like someone's subscribed to the tag and votes down on anything that comes up. Probably something for an SE developer to look into.
    – AStopher
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 9:20
  • 3
    It appears that VHDL, Verilog programming issue can be related to specific hardware, settings etc and there is a fair chance that EE might have experts that can answer from experience. Comparing this with SO it is also possible that some hardware based questions in EE can be simply programming flags or issues that should be posted on SO. This can create duplicate questions and if there is a way to link them on both sites using flags then that should be used (in future maybe). The downvote on SO should not be for this reason alone and benefit of doubt should go to OP. Commented May 4, 2016 at 9:21
  • 5
    It would be nice if we could vote to migrate questions between SO and EE. Currently it's not possible. Other site combinations (e.g. SO -> Tex) can do so.
    – Paebbels
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 9:44
  • 10
    Issues like this are why the request to make downvotes non-anonymous come up. Commented May 4, 2016 at 12:54
  • 5
    @Yakk It is a MCVE. because the error is already caused by passing the -modelsimini parameter to vsim. There is no VHDL code file needed to cause this behavior.
    – Paebbels
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 14:44
  • 50
    Let's say that I have identified one person who is pretty heavily downvoting posts in this tag. They're not targeting any one person, so our normal standards of handling serial downvoting don't apply. When one person is targeting another in revenge, that's pretty easy to make a call on, but not here. If I confront them about this, they will state that they're free to vote based on how they judge the quality of the content. The question is: how do I distinguish between votes that someone leaves based on their own strict quality standard and them abusing the voting system?
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 16:02
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    @BradLarson - To me the defining line would be, what percent of this user's questions in the [VHDL] tag has the theoretical user downvoted. 10%? No big deal. 20%? Same. 50%? Kind of shady. 75%+? I mean, at what point does it not become personal. Clearly at 75%+ the voting is targeted. In this case, of 36 questions that would be 27. So, in theory, if said user had downvoted at least 27 of those posts there is no doubt in my mind that there is a problem. If it is 18, then I am on the fence but still quizzical. If it is less than 18 I would not make assumptions.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 19:36
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    I think the user or group isn't targetting me personally. I think the whole tag is a target. I was a bit frustrated when I wrote this title, because it's very unlikely to get a -1 within several minutes. So consider my user account an example for many other VHDL tag users :)
    – Paebbels
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 19:48
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    @TravisJ I see 90% crap with absolutely no research effort in a tag I'm following. Most of them are already answered numerous times and many don't even have a proper problem description or code required reproduced the issue. I do downvote them. I do upvote the 10% good questions and wish they were the majority. I'm not targeting anyone. I don't think you can draw such a line on this matter.
    – T J
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 9:36
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    The meta effect does not discriminate based on question age ;)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 18:22

4 Answers 4

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There are some tags that should immediately be down voted (for being off-topic), such as , but isn't one of them.

If your question has code, it doesn't matter what the code does, as long as it meets the quality standards of SO (grammar, MVCE, length, etc).

Some of the questions posted under that tag do deserve down votes because they don't meet the quality guidelines for the site. This is true for any other topic, too.

I checked what's on and off topic for Electronics SE.

On topic:

  • a specific electronics design problem
  • the theory and simulation of electromagnetic forces
  • a communication scheme
  • the writing of firmware for bare-metal or RTOS applications

They do list "Programming software for a PC" as being off topic, but I think that VHDL never falls into that category because it's only used for hardware. If it's on topic there too, you have a choice of where to post it. Personally, I think that you would get better results on a smaller, dedicated site.

This, however, doesn't explain the down votes on what seem to be well written posts (as far as I can tell not knowing the subject). In fact, the post you linked seems to be the only one not negative (which is probably the meta effect more than anything else).

The tag is fairly small, with ~3,000 questions, so it's even more suspicious this would happen. Most of the recent posts have less than 40 views, and I'm sure that many of those are the meta effect.

The system currently doesn't detect serial down voting on tags, so there's not much we can do without a mod. We might even need a super mod (ie, a developer). But there are some things that we can look at to make a hypothesis:

  • It takes 125 reputation to down vote, so it has to be one or more people who have at least spent some time on the site.

  • It's possible that they don't have the ability to close vote yet, which would mean that they're < 3k rep.

  • We're not seeing any vandalism, which is good (but it might have provided more information if we were).

  • The down votes are VERY evenly distributed. This is an important detail, because it's very unlikely that it's a link from Reddit or something (otherwise we would see multiple down votes on posts).

I'm steering towards the idea of a single vigilante, because it's very unlikely that multiple people would be able to coordinate like that.

If I'm right, (and they haven't set up a program to do this), then the down votes should all be within a time frame, which will could tell us which area on Earth the down votes come from (this also assumes that they sleep at whenever night is in their timezone).


Brad Larson's comment:

Let's say that I have identified one person who is pretty heavily downvoting posts in this tag. They're not targeting any one person, so our normal standards of handling serial downvoting don't apply... If I confront them about this, they will state that they're free to vote based on how they judge the quality of the content. The question is: how do I distinguish between votes that someone leaves based on their own strict quality standard and them abusing the voting system?

I think the best option would be to tell the user(s) that we are discussing this here on Meta. They have a right to remain anonymous (as much as we might not like it), but they should at least know that we're discussing this here. If they want to reveal themselves, then so be it.


I think the other thing we need to think about is the other type of serial voting: serial up voting. Would we be as concerned if somebody was serial up voting a tag? Maybe not...

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    Regarding your update, that comment reads to me as a "Alright, so what if we do an investigation and do find this to be the case? What can we even do about it?" rather than a "Oh, yeah, I know who's doing this so what should I do now?"
    – Kendra
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 17:47
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    @ThisSuitIsBlackNot - The ambiguity is intentional. The real question is: if we do find someone downvoting a lot of questions within a single tag, is that their right? If not, where do we draw the line between someone's idea of quality control and abuse of the voting system? If they're not targeting one person, what can moderators do? Tell them not to downvote so much? Invalidate all of their votes to everyone?
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 21:10
  • @Brad: Ok, if this person exists, and is who I suspect it is, then they're just very keen on MVCE. They also have some understanding of the language, which is unusual on the HDL tags. MVCE downvoting is their right, but perhaps it doesn't work on this tag, which needs to be more conversational than C++, for example. What might help is clarification that not all questions need to be MVCE.
    – EML
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 9:20
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    @BradLarson What's wrong with downvoting lots of posts in a tag? If I am an expert in Crystal Reports, I will mostly look at questions in the Crystal Reports tag. If there are 10 new questions and 9 of them are bad, is it serial downvoting to downvote those 9 questions?
    – Aaroninus
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 12:36
  • @EML Can you elaborate a bit? Can most VHDL questions be answered without an MVCE? I'm not sure what you mean by "controversial", either.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 15:53
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    @Aaroninus: No, but let's say you downvoted that 1 good question too, because the 9 bad questions have conditioned you to think that nothing good ever comes out of [crystal-reports]. That's where Brad's dilemma really comes in IMO (and is also the main issue the OP is trying to address).
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 15:54
  • @Laurel: 'conversation-al'... :) Given that most contributors are either beginners or are not naturally 'programmers', most issues involve clarification of basic concepts, rather than pointing out errors in MVCEs. Another issue is that a class of tools (synthesisers, which generate circuits from the 'program') essentially work on heuristics, rather than implementing the LRM, and these heuristics can be vendor-dependent. That's why the comp.lang threaded conversation format works so well, and the SO question/answer format doesn't really fit.
    – EML
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 17:03
  • @BoltClock But just because you think 1 of the 10 questions is good doesn't mean they can't think all 10 were bad. You'd need to know that they downvoted a post that they themselves felt was a good post if you want to argue some form of abuse.
    – Servy
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 17:42
  • @Servy: Yeah, that's why I mentioned conditioning - there's the possibility someone is so jaded by the 9 questions they felt were bad, that they downvote the 1 question they would have otherwise considered good, just because it was posted in that tag. So the overall question here is, is that abuse, in the same way that voting on a post based on who posted it regardless of its quality is abuse, or is that just someone exercising their right to their unpopular opinion?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 18:04
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    "There are some tags that should immediately be down voted (for being off-topic)," Should off-topic questions be downvoted, or should we simply vote to close them? IMHO a close vote is sufficient -- especially if it's a perfectly good question for a different site. I'd do both only for a question that's both bad and off-topic. Commented May 5, 2016 at 18:12
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    @KeithThompson Keep in mind that down votes are removed before migration.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 18:29
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    I agree with everything here except your opening statement - "There are some tags that should immediately be down voted"; that is just plain wrong the vote should reflect the overall quality of the post, not just the use of a meta tag
    – Sayse
    Commented May 6, 2016 at 6:48
  • @BradLarson This feels a lot like this: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/269082/… except for down votes in a tag, rather than up votes along the entire site.
    – Zizouz212
    Commented May 6, 2016 at 14:41
  • 1
    If it's off-topic, it should not be voted down; it should be close-voted.
    – Spudley
    Commented May 6, 2016 at 19:58
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tl;dr: this is a problem, but it's also a symptom. There's probably room for improvement in clarifying scope.

Brad Larson has the right idea here (as usual). Here's his comment, for ease of reference and scrolling reduction:

Let's say that I have identified one person who is pretty heavily downvoting posts in this tag. They're not targeting any one person, so our normal standards of handling serial downvoting don't apply. When one person is targeting another in revenge, that's pretty easy to make a call on, but not here. If I confront them about this, they will state that they're free to vote based on how they judge the quality of the content. The question is: how do I distinguish between votes that someone leaves based on their own strict quality standard and them abusing the voting system?

I see three levels of specificity here, for lack of a better term.

In the most specific case, this question is about VHDL. I do remember from way back in college an eternal debate about whether VHDL (well, actually, Verilog, but that's not too important for this situation) was a "real" language or "merely," as the name says, a "description language," and therefore somehow a second-class citizen. I'm not an expert here, so I'll keep my opinion to myself; it's not my place to issue a decree one way or the other, anyways. Although I will say I suspect that this is like vi vs. emacs or tabs vs. spaces and there will always be some die-hards in each camp.

In the least specific case, this question is about the extrapolation of what Brad says. If someone is downvoting all posts that meet some personal criteria, but those criteria don't fit our traditional definition of targeted, malicious or otherwise inappropriate voting, is that okay or not? I think that's just a little too broad to answer; in other words, the circumstances make a difference.

That leaves us with the middle case. To be fair, I should say that I haven't done any digging on what's actually happening in this actual situation yet. But based on what's been presented so far, I suspect that I've just taken a look at recent voting patterns and it seems that Laurel's idea of a "vigilante" (actually, I think that term is sort of loaded, I'm going to say "contrarians" instead) is correct and even if it's not, it's a good discussion to have. So: what do we do when people are targeting a particular tag/topic for downvotes?

We've already established that there's nothing inherently wrong with the posts. The natural target for blame would seem to be the voters. In at least some cases, though, I think the actual fault might come from ambiguity over whether the tag is appropriate or not. That ambiguity makes Brad's question about how to identify abuse unanswerable. If there's a real concern about whether a topic belongs on a site, the community needs to come to consensus about that (through meta discussion). If and when a topic is deemed valid, this sort of mass-downvoting should become off-limits (i.e. a flaggable offense).

That, finally, brings us back around to the topic of VHDL. Is it a legitimate Stack Overflow topic? (Note that I didn't say "programming language"; our only goal is to determine whether it meets our community's standards or not.) Based on the tag's performance so far, most of the community seems to think so—or at least be ambivalent—but it's probably worth coming up with a somewhat more canonical answer (in a fresh, separate meta post). And also for someone like me to see if the initial "vigilante downvoter" assumption is valid after all.

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    "Is it a legitimate Stack Overflow topic?" Since you can program with it (including GUI and stuff) without ever having to think about any hardware I'd really say yes, it is a legitimate SO topic. Such questions would be totally out of scope of the other sites, including EE. Commented May 5, 2016 at 6:32
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    There's no question that it's a real programming language. It's closely derived from Ada, it's consistent and clean, and the LRM in front of me has 264 pages. The only thing that sets it aside from 'normal' languages is that it's massively parallel, and deals with the flow of time. The same is essentially true of Verilog (although the language design is, to say the least, poor). The basic problem here is that there are very few users of these languages, and most of them are not 'programmers'.
    – EML
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 9:05
  • I agree that these questions are interesting, but I'm pretty tempted to flag this post as "not-an-answer." Commented May 5, 2016 at 18:14
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    @Michael how so? OP asked "why am I/these questions being downvoted"; my answer is "because we've created an environment that allows (and to a degree, supports) such behavior, and we should do something about it."
    – Pops Staff
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 19:46
  • I interpret the OP's questions as "who is doing this" and "what should I do about it?" to which your answers are "I haven't checked on Laurel's theory" and "let's talk about this and come up with a canonical community decision." I think your post is great input for the community discussion, but it doesn't answer OP's questions. Commented May 5, 2016 at 19:55
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    @Michael Meta is different than the regular site. It's not as strict. Some questions on meta don't even have clear cut answers, only opinions (and should not be closed on that basis). "Answers" don't have the answer the question on meta. They just need to contain useful information. A "not-an-answer" flag would be totally inappropriate for this post.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 6, 2016 at 7:35
-32

I hadn't noticed you being down-voted. The issue is likely to be that there are a very small number of people on the VHDL and Verilog tags, and one or two of them are very keen on Minimum/Complete/Verifiable, so their votes are disproportionally counted.

Having said that, SO doesn't work for VHDL and Verilog questions anyway. Most of the very small number of questions are:

  1. homework (almost always BCD counters?!), or
  2. make no sense at all, or
  3. posted by someone who has no reputation and either won't read the answers or won't accept them.

And many of the answers are just plain wrong, but are just as likely to be accepted as a correct one.

comp.lang.vhdl is probably still the best place for VHDL, if it's still alive.

electronics.stackexchange.com is the wrong place for HDL questions, except incidentally - VHDL and Verilog are proper languages with proper LRMs (well, one of them, anyway), and questions should be programming questions, not electronics questions. VHDL is a systems simulation language, not "electronics".

EDIT Ok, to address some of the comments below.

  1. I'm pretty sure I know who does the down-voting, and I'm pretty sure he does it because he's fixated on MVE. I have no interest in MVE, but his actions, if it is him, are within the spirit of SO.
  2. I have no objection to the OP's original VHDL question; that should have been obvious.
  3. I spent 15-odd years on comp.lang.vhdl and comp.lang.verilog. It's a fact that they worked and were of very high quality. This hasn't happened on SO. It has happened for other languages, but not the HDLs. That's not a 'rant'; it's a rational analysis.
  4. I almost never downvote questions; even homework questions. I was pointing out that SO doesn't work for these languages, and this is one of the issues. You should bear in mind that the OP and myself may be the only people in this discussion who have ever contributed to the VHDL tag.
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    Please note that down votes on answers here on meta means "I don't agree". I don't agree with your answer because I think the vote pattern for these tags does look quite fishy. I think the OP has stumbled upon something that needs further investigation by a diamond mod.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 9:52
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    Yes, many questions are homework questions, but this is not against the SO or EE rules (as far as I know). Neither is there a possibility to downvote silly questions or say that people should read a book on HDL first before posting question. Requesting a MVE is mostly required to reproduce the issue. Moreover, the used toolchain is also essential. I'm not sure why many people don't improved or edit there questions to answer our requestings, so we can help out. Many questions are also cross posts. He can't handle these questions, because cross-posts can not be marked as duplicates.
    – Paebbels
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 9:52
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    The first 3 lines somehow address the question, though I agree with Lundin that such a pattern is suspicious and should be investigated, and therefore I disagree with you. The rest is a rant, and the gist is "find another site because both questions and answers here are crap". Are you so surprised to get downvotes? Commented May 4, 2016 at 9:58
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    I didn't downvote, but I don't see how your answer is relevant to the question. OP's questions are clearly not homework and make sense. "I hadn't noticed you being down-voted" - that's a strange thing to say too, because the fact is obvious to anyone with enough reputation to view upvotes/downvotes. Fabio is right.
    – Malcolm
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 9:58
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    > Please note that down votes on answers here on meta means "I don't agree". This practice sucks because it makes the answer unreadable for other people. Commented May 4, 2016 at 10:30
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    Your third point about the post being submitted by someone with no rep who won't accept any answers is completely irrelevant. Posts should stand on their own merit, regardless of who created it. If a high rep user creates a terrible post, it should be downvoted (and potentially deleted) just as much as a good post from a low rep user should be commended and upvoted. A little green tick next to a post is not necessarily an indicator of quality either.
    – DavidG
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 10:44
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    I was a no upvote/downvote on your post till I read your first point in the "EDIT" section. There is no way you can be 100% sure. You can always take a guess, but it's wrong saying that there is only one user doing this. As per your guesses, I can even blame that you do the downvotes. Will someone believe me? No. This is the same thing with your answer. Commented May 4, 2016 at 15:28
  • "This hasn't happened on SO. It has happened for other languages, but not the HDLs." I would argue that the goal for the benefit of this community would be to make that work. While I don't dispute your analysis, how do you propose to make SO work for these tags/HDLs, aside from saying to go to an off-site resource "if it's still alive"? They are undisputably programming languages that are on-topic for SO. The fact that the tags are a so-called cesspool is possibly a self-fulfilling prophecy due to the stagnation and downvoting in the tag.
    – nanofarad
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 23:49
  • @paebbels EE does not respond kindly to homework questions. Good questions where they tried, failed, but showed their work may stay open, but most get dv and vtc because of lack of effort.
    – cde
    Commented May 24, 2016 at 5:49
  • @paebbels this post mentioned EE multiple times, and I replied to your statement that homework is okay on EE.
    – cde
    Commented May 24, 2016 at 8:06
  • Oh sorry, I have totally forgotten this one :). You're right.With homework questions I referred to SO homework questions.
    – Paebbels
    Commented May 24, 2016 at 8:10
  • @cde That still doesn't explain why downvotes are being sent to non-HW questions. Additionally, investigating what made comp.lang.vhdl work may be a good step moving forward, here or in a new meta post.
    – nanofarad
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 18:28
-75

That tag is, frankly, a cesspool of non-MVCE, no-effort, "do my homework" questions. Most of the downvotes appear to be deserved.

There is no rule against downvoting in a tag (see Serial downvotes for single tag). If somebody ends up serial-downvoting a specific user, that will be reversed by the serial-voting system.

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    How does this answer help the OP? His VHDL questions are, as far as I've seen, of sufficient quality.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 11:57
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    @Cerbrus It does highlight a problem though - similar to robo-reviewers, there are robo-downvoters too.
    – cst1992
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 12:18
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    That doesn't help the OP, or answer his question.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 12:19
  • The discussion seems to have moved beyond the OP's specific question.
    – nobody
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 12:43
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    And the discussion can be deleted at any time leaving this answer looking a bit confusing.
    – DavidG
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 13:14
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    Surely downvoting good questions because they happen to be in a cesspool of non-MVCE homework questions isn't conducive to attempting to convert said cesspool to a good tag with good questions.
    – nanofarad
    Commented May 4, 2016 at 22:47

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