63

I was just about to ask a database related question (involving translations between SQL and MySQL) when I remembered that there's a whole site in the Stack Exchange network dedicated to databases!

But then I thought to myself, "Hmm... Which site should I put my database question on?"

So I checked out the hottest questions on Database Administrators and realized that these are questions that could have been easily (and successfully) asked on Stack Overflow. Of course we may also find that the reverse is true; there are many database related questions (language, technology, etc.) that could (and are) asked here on Stack Overflow.

The answer shouldn't be as simple as, "Which ever site you want!" This isn't Stack Exchange vs Quora (not even a competition but you get my point); this is two very large sites within the same network that seem to be unnecessarily dividing traffic. Additionally, I don't think that a user should ever have to ask themselves, "Which site in the Stack Exchange network would be the more appropriate site to ask my question?" Stack Exchange seems to reinforce this idea through the fact that each site in the network is very distinct.

Understandably, when Database Administrators went live, I could imagine that the point was to be a place for more theoretical questions and answers but if you check out the hottest questions section that I linked to previously, they are mostly technical in nature and could find a home on Stack Overflow as well.

So back to the original thought: where should we be asking database questions?

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  • 2
    Depends on the question, I suppose. Can you make an example?
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 28, 2016 at 20:59
  • 4
    I can, but first I think it would be fantastic if you posted via an answer what the conditionals are for the "depends on the question". The fact that you wrote that, which I am glad that you did, is the exact reason why I made this thread. Of course, keeping in mind that the question itself is database related.
    – 8protons
    Commented Apr 28, 2016 at 21:04
  • 5
    You may have already read this, but just in case you haven't, it might be helpful: dba.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic Commented Apr 28, 2016 at 21:31
  • 2
    Hmm, several of the topics listed there are ones I think would be more appropriate on SO, since they're about designing queries. My general assumption has been that SO is the right place for questions about using the database in applications, while DBA is for questions about managing the database and server.
    – Barmar
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 15:19
  • @Barmar Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when I read that list of topics and so it's part of what motivated me to post this on the meta. Especially if you look at the hot questions on the DBA site. Do you think it'd be more appropriate on the Stack Exchange meta because it concerns the network?
    – 8protons
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 15:29
  • 3
    I don't think the point of DBA.SE was ever for more theoretical than technical questions. Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 15:59
  • 4
    Perhaps I misparsed could have been easily (and successfully) asked At any rate, I think that using hottest questions as a barometer of a site's is dubious. Instead, look at the depth of answers over there Much as Pekka has indicated.
    – billinkc
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 16:05
  • @billinkc "Perhaps"? I think that what you mean to say is that you completely misread that sentence lol. But I'll credit you for not deleting your comment. Anyways, I don't agree that cherry picking 3 answers is a better example than sharing an entire page of dynamic links that represent the current most popular questions. But to each their own :]
    – 8protons
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 16:17
  • 2
    @8protons I think you misread billinkc's comment. Your link to DBA.SE was to "hot" dba.se questions, while the other link to SO was to "frequent" SQL questions (and most of them old and highly voted). That's comparing apples to oranges. Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 16:19
  • 7
    Not to mention that DBA.SE does not have only SQL questions. There are questions about installation, maintenance, indexing and other database related matters, besides SQL/query ones. Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 16:20
  • @ypercubeᵀᴹ I'm not sure exactly what comment you're referring to. Personally, I don't feel that the two links are "comparing apples to oranges". I'm not saying that I think you're wrong, I simply disagree and hold a different opinion about my intent. My intent was to display that popular questions on DBA.SE could have a home here on SO. My intent in linking to the frequent DB questions on SO was to represent the idea that very active questions on SO that have been well-received by the SO community weren't offshored to the DBA site or flagged for being "off topic".
    – 8protons
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 16:25
  • @ypercubeᵀᴹ and so I have to say that after some thought, I probably could have and should have conveyed my intent better in my post. So thank you for pointing that specific thing out. As for your comment about the type of questions on the DBA.SE, you're completely right. But those questions are easily also found here on SO. And that's really the point I'm trying to get across. There's a lot of overlap and it's a bit convoluted.
    – 8protons
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 16:26
  • 1
    No, I don't disagree on your intent. I find it good. There is overlap and many questions could be asked in any of the 2 sites. But (as Pekka answer indicates) some hard questions often find better answers at DBA.SE (and don't suppose I mean elitism or anything like that but because there are people specialized in database products that frequent that site and not so much the SO.) Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 16:38
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    And for the record, that first page of frequent SQL questions at SO, almost all the questions are old, from the time that DBA.SE wasn't live ;) Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 16:48
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    Unrelated, but: "translations between SQL and MySQL" doesn't make sense. MySQL uses SQL as it's query language
    – user330315
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 10:45

5 Answers 5

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There's probably no single good answer to this.

I personally would ask myself whether the problem I'm about to ask about would be typically encountered by someone who deals with databases all day, every day, or by a programmer whose work with databases is only a small fraction of their work schedule.

The more

  • specialized
  • decoupled from any specific programming platform, and/or
  • high-level/theoretical

the question, the more likely I would be to ask it on DBA.

I tend to think of DBA like of Server Fault - a highly specialized community with higher standards in question quality, and (in my case) filled with people who know more about their subject matter than I ever will.

The tradeoff is simple: you get fewer eyeballs on your question than on Stack Overflow, but they're likely to know more than the average Stack Overflow eyeball, and perhaps deliver a better/more thorough answer.

They are, however, also more demanding eyeballs in terms of complexity and quality.

Take your pick.

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  • 9
    There used to be a large proportion of very good DB people who answered extremely regularly on SO. Almost every one has stepped back over the past year or 4. DBA wasn't the best site to post on before, but it certainly is now. This answer is definitely correct.
    – Ben
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 18:19
  • 3
    There is huge overlap between the websites. We should have one single website and tags, and that's it IMHO :-) Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 7:25
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    @CiroSantilli巴拿馬文件六四事件法轮功 I disagree - the separate sites have distinct and very functional communities. There's clearly need for some degree of separation, IMO, partly for the reason above - the specialist sites are less tolerant of mediocre questions
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 8:36
  • 2
    However, it may be interesting (or obvious) to note that the top 7 users on DBA by rep all have fairly high rep on SO, and have gold tag badges for pretty much the same tags on both sites.
    – user2535467
    Commented May 1, 2016 at 15:40
  • 3
    Another problem of this fragmentation is duplicates. If database questions are on-topic on dba as well as stackoverflow then it could be that a question is a duplicate but cannot be marked as one, or can you mark questions as duplicate of another in another stackexchange site? In the end search engine traffic is divided and suboptimal solutions might be presented to visitors without a hint of other/better answers to the same problem. Commented May 3, 2016 at 9:28
49

Pekka's answer is very good. I would just like to contribute my thoughts to the discussion using my own words.

Hmm... Which site should I put my database question on?

For me (as a moderator on DBA), it's about who you want to answer your question. Many database-related questions can be on-topic at both Stack Overflow and Database Administrators. (This is not at all an unusual situation within the ever-expanding SE network.)

If you want your question addressed from the point of view of a software developer, ask it on SO. Many developers work with databases a fair bit, so your question will likely get a good answer within that context.

If you want the question read and responded to from the particular perspective of a database professional, ask it on DBA. By 'database professional' there, I mean someone whose work and experience is specialized to one or more database or database-related products.

In addition, the more advanced the question is, the more likely it is to be better asked on DBA. As our on-topic help page says (emphasis added):

dba.se is for those needing expert answers to advanced database-related questions...

Very basic questions do still get asked on DBA, and this is perhaps inevitable. These questions are often answered in place rather than being migrated to SO. My feeling is that this is because people want to be helpful. It is easier to answer someone's basic question quickly, rather than waiting for a migration to take effect. This is an ongoing discussion on our site though.

In practice, the same question might get a great answer on either site, not least because some of the top users on DBA also participate on SO (myself not included). This may have become less true in recent times, as more and more database experts choose DBA as the main SE site they contribute to.

These days, I would expect that the chances of getting a high-quality, detailed and thoughtful answer from a database expert are significantly higher on DBA, because of the audience, tighter focus, and (much) lower volume.

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    I have to agree with Paul on this. Essentially the answer to the question depends on the audience you'd like to have look at your question.
    – Zane
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 18:13
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    The main reason the sites are split is not because it's easy to find the difference between the questions, but because the expert DB administrators were getting frustrated with having to wade through a lot of unrelated questions to find those that they could uniquely answer. The sites are defined by the experts that inhabit them, not the questions that are asked. So choosing the best audience for your question is the better way to determine which site to use, rather than trying to figure out where the question exists on the programming <--> db spectrum - though often the answers are the same.
    – Adam Davis
    Commented Apr 30, 2016 at 12:01
  • 2
    @AdamDavis - please add that as an answer so I can give you +1,000,000 Commented May 1, 2016 at 3:52
  • 1
    @AdamDavis Very good point! Although with advanced filtering (tags, tags, tags) one could maybe achieve the same effect within a single StackExchange. This explains very well the fragmentation and explosion of numbers of SE sites. The advantage is however also the downside: fragmentation of communities. I don't really understand why I have to log into each SE site new, and why the design is completely different and some rules and the rep... when it's only about asking and answering questions. Commented May 1, 2016 at 19:07
  • 4
    @Trilarion new users are terrible at tagging, and a high reputation in programming doesn't imply expertise in databases. Even if tagging was resolved, having reputation mean something specific regarding expertise in one topic is still valuable. Reputation isn't a perfect measure of expertise, of course, but there's a strong correlation that's useful.
    – Adam Davis
    Commented May 2, 2016 at 0:03
  • @AdamDavisTopic-specific reputation. Even within Programming this could work; one could split the rep and calculate it specific on the tags or groups of tags (data science programming tags rep, database programming tags rep, ...). But I agree that having a separate StackExchange for specific communities is working fine in general and certainly is useful but it also has a downside: fragmentation. While high reputation in programming doesn't imply expertise in databases there are certainly people who do both. Commented May 3, 2016 at 9:24
5

I see the difference in the context of the question.

Stack Overflow in the context of programming:

  • Problems with a framework (ORM) like Entity Framework?
  • Problems using some SQL driver like PDO?
  • Processing data, which are returned by a driver/ORM

DBA in context of administration and querying:

  • Replication?
  • Backup?
  • Plain SQL?
  • User roles?
  • Everything you can achieve, using only the options, an SQL server gives you
0
0

Additionally, I don't think that a user should ever have to ask themselves, "Which site in the Stack Exchange network would be the more appropriate site to ask my question?"

This is indeed the case. Questions can be on-topic on multiple StackExchange sites and that is just fine, given that the fields partly overlap. So in case you have such a question it would be advantageous to actually think about which site would be most appropriate.

In Area 51, the hatching place for new sites, you typically have to motivate what makes your new proposed site different from already existing sites. It doesn't have to be totally disjoint, but there must be a reasonable difference to already existing sites, otherwise StackExchange employees will stop the proposal.

For database administrators the focus / on-topicness is:

  • Database Administration including configuration and backup / restore
  • Advanced Querying including window-functions, dynamic-sql, and query-performance
  • Data Modelling and database-design, including referential-integrity
  • Advanced Programming in built-in server-side languages including stored-procedures and triggers.
  • Data Warehousing and Business Intelligence including etl, reporting, and olap

Which has some overlap but also differences to StackOverflow. For example there is a lot of modelling included that might/would be off-topic on StackOverflow.

Also see the announcements on the Area 51 proposal of dba.stackexchange.com or in their meta StackOverflow still has a lot of DBA questions.

Synopsis: Database Administrators and StackOverflow are overlapping but also have their unique topics. Some questions will be on-topic on both in which case one of the sites will probably be more appropriate in terms of faster and better results. A smart choice might be to have more programming related database questions here while other more logic related database questions might get better results there. Questions which are off-topic in the respective StackExchanges will be migrated or closed.

-20

I would suggest that dba.stackexchange.com should be closed and the contents migrated to Stack Overflow. That would resolve the dilemma, with no apparent downside.

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    meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/322009/…
    – Pekka
    Commented May 1, 2016 at 15:12
  • @Pekka웃, "The main reason the sites are split is not because it's easy to find the difference between the questions, but because the expert DB administrators were getting frustrated with having to wade through a lot of unrelated questions to find those that they could uniquely answer." That doesn't resolve the asker's dilemma of where to post their question. Likewise for the rest of the comment you linked. Merging dba.stackexchange.com with SO, however, would resolve it. NB. I don't understand this apparent frustration of the "expert DB administrators". Can you explain it for me? Ta :)
    – user82216
    Commented May 3, 2016 at 1:23
  • @sambablokuper the experts are the ones answering the questions, so their dilemma is more important than the asker's. There's an unlimited supply of questions, but a limited supply of free expert answers.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 3, 2016 at 8:35
  • @Pekka웃, indeed, but that doesn't really address my puzzlement. Specifically, I don't understand why answering a DBA-related question on SE should ever be more frustrating for an expert DBA than answering the exact same question on dba.stackexchange.com . After all, the question is the same, the interface is the same, and the reputation gained for a good answer would plausibly be the same (or greater, assuming SE has more users).
    – user82216
    Commented May 3, 2016 at 14:56
  • I'm not sure I follow. DBA related questions tend to pop up on both, and they can be answered on both, where is the problem / frustration?
    – Pekka
    Commented May 3, 2016 at 15:30
  • @Pekka웃, exactly my point! Yet the comment by Adam Davis that you linked to in your first comment on my answer, & which I excerpted in my reply, says "expert DB administrators were getting frustrated". That's the "frustration" I referred to. It seems you, like me, question that frustration. Personally, I think either there was no such frustration, or at least there was no good reason for such frustration. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but no-one's yet provided a convincing argument. Until then, dba.se's existence in addition to SO is not justified by the "frustration" premise :)
    – user82216
    Commented May 3, 2016 at 15:57
  • @sambablokuper I'm still not sure I follow... DB administrators (I assume; I wasn't there) were becoming frustrated with question quality on SO, so they decided they want a more elite club of their own where they can be more discriminating to questions than SO tends to be, on average, and require more from the asker. That's how it worked with Serverfault, and the result is demonstrably a community that is somewhat less tolerant of bad questions than SO proper - and if that's what it takes to keep the experts happily answering questions, that's fine with me. Who are we to say otherwise?
    – Pekka
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 20:38
  • Just because you can ask on both sites, after all, doesn't mean the result is guaranteed to be the same, especially if it's not a very good question.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 20:39
  • @Pekka웃, "Who are we to say otherwise?" We are also users of the site(s), so our concerns should be considered. Those concerns might include: askers inconvenience by being arbitrarily expected, by a clique, to choose between sites based on arcane criteria; or the creation of overlapping sites leading to duplication of effort. "[DBAs wanted somewhere] they can be more discriminating to questions than SO tends to be, on average, and require more from the asker." Surely a better solution would be to keep standards high on SO by e.g. improving poor questions & closing/ignoring awful ones?
    – user82216
    Commented May 6, 2016 at 15:26
  • @Pekka웃, "Just because you can ask on both sites, after all, doesn't mean the result is guaranteed to be the same, especially if it's not a very good question." In your view, is that a good thing? In my view, it isn't. The SE network should be constructed to provide consistently high quality answers, & a good way to do that would, IMO, have been to address whatever problems with SO meant that some DBAs wanted to split off, instead of facilitating: the split, the inconsistency you mention, & the inconvenience & confusion for askers that resulted in the question at the top of this page ;)
    – user82216
    Commented May 6, 2016 at 15:29
  • Sure, in an ideal world, that is how it would work. In reality though, it's a hard problem with a balance that has to be struck. Some groups tend to separate and there's no one magical thing you can do to prevent that... and I tend to see it a bit like the difference between highly specialized physicians and your general practitioner. The latter you might not trust with a complicated cancer; the former you would never even think of bothering about a simple cold.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 7, 2016 at 6:18
  • @Pekka웃, "Some groups tend to separate and there's no one magical thing you can do to prevent that." Except that in this case, it could have been prevented simply by not creating dba.se, and just keeping those questions and answers within SO. And that would have left us in the "ideal world" state, as you called it. Even now, we can get back to that state by following the suggestion given in my answer. That being the case, I don't understand why my answer has been downvoted.
    – user82216
    Commented May 8, 2016 at 6:38
  • If that ideal world state had existed back when dba.se was created, it would probably not have gained the necessary traction to take off.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 8, 2016 at 10:04

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