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Processing is a language with a simplified syntax and its own IDE, designed to make it easy for novice programmers to get something visual and interactive up and running without a ton of boilerplate.

Processing is built on top of Java. Part of what the Processing IDE does for you is compile your Processing code into Java code, which it then runs. But most Processing developers never interact with that Java code.

Here is a little example of a Processing program (usually called a "sketch"). This is completely valid syntax, runs as-is (without a main method), and displays a circle where the mouse is:

void setup(){
  size(500, 500);
}

void draw(){
  color backgroundColor = #0000ff;
  background(backgroundColor);
  color fillColor = color(0, 255, 0);
  fill(fillColor);
  ellipse(mouseX, mouseY, 20, 20);
}

Despite that, many questions tagged with also get tagged with . This tagging is valid, as there is quite a bit of overlap between the two. Many Processing questions are Java questions in disguise.

However, I've also noticed a tendency for commenters and answerers to miss the tag (I understand why, as Processing is not an obvious tag) and treat questions as purely Java questions. Asking to see a main() function that Processing simply doesn't use. Asking the OP to provide definitions for functions that are internal to Processing. Saying that the syntax is invalid, even though it's perfectly valid Processing syntax.

Here are three examples from just this week:

(Edit: These questions have since been re-opened, which is great. Thanks, meta-effect! But it's worth noting that usually these questions would have stayed closed.)

  • This question asks about embedding Processing in a JPanel. This is a very common Processing question right now. Processing 2 had the ability to embed itself as an AWT component, but Processing 3 removed that ability. You can still do it, but it's not as straightforward as it used to be. So people who upgrade Processing have questions about this. They're pretty specific to Processing, and if you know anything about Processing 3 then you know exactly what this person is asking. But it was closed as being unclear.

  • This question asks about accessing Processing functions from inside a class. Again, the question is pretty clear to anybody who knows about Processing. But it was also closed as being unclear.

  • This question asks about a NullPointerException (NPE) that's happening inside Processing. It was closed as a duplicate of the canonical question on Java NPEs, which I don't think is fair. NPEs are not as straightforward to debug in Processing - the line numbers in the stack trace refer to the compiled Java code, not the Processing code, so it takes a few extra steps. Besides that, this question is asking about an error that's happening internal to Processing.

  • Edit: Here is another one, asking about an NPE internal to Processing. The exception is not caused by the reasons outlined in the canonical NPE question, yet it was closed as a duplicate.

I'm a bit frustrated by the seemingly knee-jerk reactions from Java developers, which aren't always valid with Processing questions. I understand the reaction with Java questions, but I don't think they always apply to Processing questions.

Usually one would think that getting more eyes on a question would increase its chances of being answered. But it seems like I have a better chance of helping people when they don't tag the question with . This doesn't feel right.

How can I help Java developers understand that sometimes "the Java reaction" doesn't apply to a Processing question?

I guess I'll start linking them to this question, but more often than not the damage has been done before I get there, with questions being closed or deleted before I can comment. Voting to reopen seems to have no effect, as there just aren't very many Processing answerers on this site.

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    It is certainly a very strong candidate in the "worst named language" contest, high odds it will win. You could perhaps ask for a tag rename to [processing-lang]. And edit the wiki to point out that questions should not also include [java]. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 15:20
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    @HansPassant That has been discussed here. I'm not sure that will really fix the problem though. Then again, I don't know what will fix the problem. I'm also afraid that renaming it to processing-lang will make it harder for people with valid Processing questions (many of whom are novices) to find the correct tag. In that case they might tag it with just Java, which would only make things worse. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 15:25
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    @HansPassant Also, many Processing questions should contain the Java tag. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 15:42
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    Maybe some while-posting tag guidance can be added for [processing].
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 15:54
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    @KevinWorkman: Even if I know Java I may be completely inept at Processing. I'm not confident that the questions should have it unless it can be definitively demonstrated that it's a Java-centric problem.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 15:57
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    @Makoto That's why I said many instead of all. Many Processing questions are indeed also Java questions. But they aren't only Java questions, and that's the assumption that the Java developers seem to be making. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 16:01
  • @JoshCaswell I think that would help with a different problem of people asking "general processing" on the Processing language tag. But many valid Processing questions should have both the Java and Processing tags. It's not the questioner's fault. But then people assume it's a purely Java question, which is where the knee-jerk reactions come in. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 16:03
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    Not so sure about the should, who would ever want to find a [processing] expert that doesn't know beans about [java]? Same kind of issue exists in the [android] tag btw. [android] implies java, [java] does not imply android. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 16:04
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    Based only on your example code, I'm inclined to think that you say many Processing questions are also Java questions because of syntax similarities. Perhaps the case is stronger. But C#, C++, and C questions are not Java questions, nor vise versa, despite syntax similarities. Maybe more appropos, C and C++ have bona fide language overlap, but it is rarely appropriate to tag a question with both languages (and regular respondents in those tags frequently say so). Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 16:24
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    @JohnBollinger That's not at all what I'm saying. Processing is built on top of Java. You can write Java code inside Processing. You can use Processing as a Java library. So many Processing questions are also Java questions. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 16:28
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    @KevinWorkman, you can write ISO-standard C code inside a C++ program, but that doesn't make it appropriate to tag questions about the overall program with C. I'll argue that if you can present a Java-only MCVE then it's a Java question and should be framed and tagged as such, but if you need Processing in your MCVE then it's a Processing question, and should be tagged that way (only). Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 16:31
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    @KevinWorkman, certainly where the additional tag is more harmful than helpful, and even where it just contributes nothing, it should be omitted. The former is the case you asked about. One of those is almost always the case in the C / C++ space with which I am drawing an analogy. I am insufficiently familiar with Processing to judge just how good an analogy it is, but as far as I can tell it seems to fit. To what extent the concept can be generalized to other spaces is an altogether separate question. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 17:11
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    @Marco13 I generally try to cleanup general processing questions tagged with the Processing tag, so those are pretty much taken care of. Commented Apr 16, 2016 at 19:51
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    @Kevin, it sounds like the problem is that java is used for both the language and its standard library. Seems that processing+swing or processing+awt are obviously valid combinations, they're discussing use of a well-known Java library from a language that provides access to said Java library. But people aren't interpreting processing+java the same way, even though they should be, because java is also used for a language. There's probably no solution unless Java language and library someday get separate tags.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 16, 2016 at 20:06
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    "having e.g. gold on [java] doesn't necessarily make one a real Java EE, JSF, CDI, EJB, Servlet, Spring, Struts, whatever expert." -- this comment from @BalusC nicely sums it up. Consider that whatever tags are used, a gold badge in one of those tags can unilaterally close the question as a duplicate. So it comes down to: if you're posting a question for code written in Processing, do you trust a gold badge only in java to correctly and single-handedly close such a question as a duplicate? I argue that if you do, the question probably isn't really a Processing question after all. Commented Apr 19, 2016 at 6:58

4 Answers 4

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I've never heard of Processing before now. It seems to be a niche language. (It made me think of Jython, actually.)

Its name is so mundane and nondescript, most users won't bother looking at the hover tag. And I'm not just talking about new users. Just look at the widespread misuse of other tags, such as .

(Edit: After I looked at what questions were tagged as , I found NOTHING that was mis-tagged. Kevin (the OP) seems to do a phenomenal job at keeping the tag clean. I applaud you, Kevin.)

Many Java questions are so poorly written that it becomes very easy to dismiss legitimate questions like these.

While there are a number of options, the simplest and probably most effective solution* would be to add the logo to the tag:

processing logo


foundation logo

Hopefully, people who know the language will recognize the symbol and use the tag.

It might be beneficial to create processing-java as a synonym. Actually, while refers to the Java one, there's also p5.js (JavaScript), and Processing.py (Python). It may be worthwhile to link these also.

When I see logos, it makes it very clear that the tag is not a generic catchall. Even if it momentarily confuses people, the second they hover over the tag, they'll read the description and understand.

People with the power to VTC should be able to get the message this way (even if it's not obvious for new users). It should also be more clear to everyone when the tag is being misused.


Edit:

*Tag images must be sponsored. I couldn't find any more specific information on the price besides the fact that it's "$5,000 per minute" to speak with someone about things. But...

The Processing Foundation (yes, they have a foundation) seems to have already sponsored initiatives:

The Processing Foundation’s core principles of accessibility and empowerment are facilitated through our Initiatives Program. By partnering with like-minded organizations, nonprofits, schools, and individuals, the Foundation sponsors and hosts events that broaden the audience for our software projects, and welcome those new to the community. We seek out and invite groups who have historically not been given access to the worlds of technology, code, and art, whether because of race, gender, class, and/or ability. Our Initiatives Program includes contributors conferences, classes, panel discussions, sprints, workshops, and other community events.

While these initiatives are radically different from what tag sponsorship is, I feel that it might be worth reaching out to them (it's probably best if we organize this, otherwise I imagine they could get flooded).

I do feel that it would further their mission.

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    Unfortunately tag images/icons are sponsored so this isn't a very viable option.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 20:32
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    Could we reach out to the Processing community and ask them to sponsor the tag so we can put their logo on it?
    – Kevin
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 20:35
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    From a distance that image reads like "Poo"
    – j08691
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 21:15
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    Or could stackoverflow just add this as a service to the community?
    – Marcin
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 21:17
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    @Kevin I don't think you want a particular group to "own" a tag as generic as one named "processing." Even if the icon were added, I would want to see the tag renamed.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 21:19
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    @jpmc26 if the tag weren't about the language, it'd need to get burninated fast. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 21:41
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    @LucasTrzesniewski Yes, but that only strengthens the case for renaming it. The name is too vague as is, and I'd be very surprised if there's not already a pattern of misuse.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 21:45
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    @jpmc26 Actually, there are ~3000 questions under the tag, and I looked and it is pristine. I cannot find anything that's using it wrong. Kevin seems to have done extremely well keeping it clean. Your assumption is wrong, please look for yourself.
    – Laurel
    Commented Apr 16, 2016 at 3:36
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    Just because SE normally requests money for the addition of a logo doesn't mean that SE has to request the cash @ryanyuyu
    – Ben
    Commented Apr 16, 2016 at 6:53
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    Then I want it for my own very cool open source community too... Where should they draw the line? @ben Commented Apr 16, 2016 at 21:27
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    @PatrickHofman: yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope Commented Apr 17, 2016 at 8:37
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit This is not a fallacy if fairness is in question. There are rules that are supposed to be well established. Asking a question, "What if we make exception from a rule...?" is not a fallacy, that's a valid question. Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 7:18
  • Hey, how could you have heard of Processing for the first time?? :) It's really cool to build some animation with it, some tiny games etc. BTW I never knew it was built on top of Java.
    – ForceBru
    Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 13:26
  • I'd favor processing-lang over processing-java, especially if there are implementations in other languages.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 9, 2018 at 22:34
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I think I'd probably be guilty of this - until I read this post, I had no idea that there was a language called Processing. If I saw a question tagged [processing] and [java], I'd assume that it was a Java question, and that "processing" here was just being used generically.

One thing that would make it clear would be if we had different types of tag, that looked different from each other. It could be as simple as using a different font and a different colour. Maybe one class of tag for languages and technologies (like the [java] tag) and another for concepts (such as the [arrays] tag). If we had this, then I'd see the [processing] tag with its "languages and technologies" appearance, and know immediately that it was something that I knew nothing about. I would then refrain from answering, commenting on, or voting on the question.

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    I like this a lot in principle, because it makes sense that the most important tag should carry a visual indicator which draws the eye. This would also solve any other similar problems. The issue I'd foresee is that things can get ambiguous. For example, if processing and android get the special tag, then so could e.g. winapi because it has the same implications. People who just know C or C++ can't answer Windows API questions. It doesn't really matter but you have to decide how to draw the line I guess. Processing calls itself a language but it's really a Java SDK.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 5:12
  • @Radiodef I agree with you. I had a brief look through the existing tags, and a few of them were hard to categorise one way or the other. Certainly, I think [winapi] fits under the "languages and technologies" category. The ones that don't are things like [arrays], [list], [security], [performance] and so on. Heaven help us if someone invents a language called "performance" of course - this would be marginally worse than a language called "Processing". Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 5:14
  • I suppose it's the sort of thing we'd end up fleshing out on meta on a tag-by-tag basis, like we already do with other tag sorts of things.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 5:20
  • Yeah, but I think somebody creating a new tag should be get to select whether it's a language/technology, or a concept. Then people who can edit the tag description should be able to change the category, in the cases where the original tag creator got it wrong. The big problem is dealing with all the existing tags, but I can't imagine it taking more than an hour or so to sort them all out. Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 5:22
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    This is certainly a good idea, although it's definitely going to be tons of work for everyone (both SE programmers and editors). I imagine that it should be like the meta mod tags, a different color. Should the generic tags be green?
    – Laurel
    Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 21:03
8

one would think that getting more eyes on a question would increase its chances of being answered

I agree that in this case, the results may be counter-intuitive (i.e. more eyes may decrease the chances of a good answer).

But your comment quoted above, nearly an aside, seems to me to be at the crux of the problem: in spite of the fact that many users use them this way, tags are not there to "get more eyes" on the question. They are there to precisely and correctly describe the question. If a tag fails to do this, it should not be included (and it should be removed if someone did include it).

I disagree with the assertion that tagging a question as both and "is valid". As your question title says, the two languages are not the same and the two tags should not be used together. That "there is quite a bit of overlap between the two" does not justify using both tags. There are lots of pairs of languages where it could be said there is "quite a bit of overlap", but that doesn't justify including tags for two different languages on the same question, when the question involves the use of only one of those languages.

So the real answer here is to simply edit the question and remove the tag. It doesn't belong, it's only confusing people, and it is leading to bad answers. Get rid of it.

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    You're wrong. One still needs to know Java to do processing, especially for the more advanced stuff than drawing circles. And it's hard to draw a line, because the one who's asking the question hardly can know whether the solution needs standard Java constructs or some Processing scripts. Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 4:38
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    @TomášZato: "You're wrong" -- I guess you're entitled to your opinion. But you're missing the point. If the question involves some Processing-specific knowledge, then it's a Processing question, not a Java question. Looping in the Java experts isn't going to do it, and will only confuse matters. On the other hand, if the issue is simply Java-specific, there's no need to tag it Processing at all. Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 6:43
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    You seem to be unable to realize that a) the asker doesn't yet know whether the solution will be Java-like or Processing-like or b) he's asking Java question but it's context is useful for other users of processing (eg. things related to Serial port). I looked at your profile and you have no answers or questions about processing and you do not seem to be involved in Java either - are you sure you know what you're talking about, or are you just theorizing on the general idea? Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 7:08
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    @TomášZato: " the asker doesn't yet know whether the solution will be Java-like or Processing-like" -- the asker's inability to correctly tag the question does not preclude the possibility of correctly tagging the question. "he's asking Java question but it's [sic] context is useful for other users of processing" -- being useful for other users of Processing is irrelevant. The tag is supposed to describe the question, not all contexts in which the info might be useful. Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 7:46
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    @TomášZato: And then there's this: "I looked at your profile...are you sure you know what you're talking about" -- you may be surprised to find that a person's Stack Overflow profile is not in fact the entire sum total of that person's knowledge and experience. Commented Apr 18, 2016 at 7:46
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    This gets my vote - based on BalusC's comment on the question and earlier contact I've had with him regarding this. I really do see the merit behind his choice of dropping the java tag from questions which are not about JavaSE specifically. Or perhaps I should generalize more: you drop tags bound to 'huge' communities (Java, C++, C#, Python, whatever) from subject matter which applies only to a smaller subset of that community. Doing that puts the wrong eyes on the questions. And now I have to admit mistakes I have made recently: you don't edit them into questions so lightly either.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 21, 2016 at 14:43
-2

Okay, this might be a crazy suggestion, but maybe we could try asking SO to create a special exception for the processing tag that it will automatically become the first tag in the list of tags whenever it's present. This makes logical sense as the first tag typically indicates the language of the question.


Or even better, make this a generic rule where tags can be marked as type: 'language' and the sort would work as follows

  1. Tags of type language, from least to most popular
  2. Rest of the tags, from most to least popular

I mean, there are a lot of tags which would benefit from this, as [processing] is far from the only language that compiles through another language. [coffeescript] [javascript] and [groovy] [java] are some other typical examples. Sure, they don't have the same confusion that [processing] has due to its name, but it would still be an improvement if for example [coffeescript] questions can more easily be noticed as such in a list of [javascript] questions.


All the up and downvotes seem to indicate not everyone is equally aware of the fact tags are sorted. In the case of the general solution one could also highlight language tags differently from generic tags. Not significantly, but significantly enough that one could see in a glance that the first tags look different. At least it would make it extra clear that it's not just a miss tagged tag.

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    Unfortunately, if I didn't know what Processing is, I don't think I'd pay more attention to it just because it's the first tag in a list. I'd assume that the apparently low-quality question in front of me just put the tags in the wrong order.
    – Kevin
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 22:00
  • @Kevin I would expect any user with a couple k reputation to have noticed that tags are sorted... :/ Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 22:03
  • I actually quite like this idea. Commented Apr 16, 2016 at 14:10
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    @KevinWorkman Considering all the down and upvotes I guess the divide is on the people who have always been aware tags are sorted and those who haven't. Commented Apr 16, 2016 at 14:41
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    The tags are ordered by the question count at the time the question was last edited. The tag with the highest question count appears first. <- The ordering of tags does not always convey meaningful information.
    – Laurel
    Commented Apr 17, 2016 at 15:51

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