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Recently this answer was deleted due to a copyright violation at the request of the copyright owner.

However, the answer is still visible to 10k+ rep users. Will the answer be completely deleted in the future so that nobody can see it anymore?

I understand the benefits of keeping deleted answers around but in cases of copyright violation, it may be contrary to the owner's wishes.

4 Answers 4

24

Well, first of all: That post wasn't actually deleted due to the copyright-holder submitting a DMCA request.
Instead, it was deleted by the poster himself, after becoming aware that there is an issue.

Anyway, as animuson♦ comments, the post is not hard-deleted if deleted due to copyright-violation, so 10K users can still see it.

For that specific post, there is a chance that the poster will change it to a summary with maybe a few short quotes, linking to the full external post for further reading, and thereafter it would be fine.
See the last few comments on the answer you linked.

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  • 14
    They can. There is no special variable attached to a post that would tell the system it was deleted for such a reason so that it could be hidden from them. We do custom flag and comment on the post when they get deleted for this, but that's all.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 0:00
  • 3
    @animuson Doesn't that make SO essentially noncompliant with the DMCA? afaik you must remove content that you recieved a takedown notice against entirely from your website, not just hide it for some users.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 15:05
  • @Magisch, Perhaps it is enough that the content can't be turned up in a search engine?
    – ouflak
    Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 15:11
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    @ouflak unfortunately unless one of us is a copyright lawyer, it is best to point this discussion to the SE guys and let they figure it out, because anything we "think" here is pure speculation. Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 15:28
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    @Mindwin - Agreed. Left to determine the best way to enforce copyright on their own, most engineers will probably end up at "don't".
    – JDB
    Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 15:32
  • @Magisch That sounds pretty much unenforceable via the typical notice & takedown procedure, at least. Anyway, yeah, we're not lawyers. I'll see myself out. Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 16:50
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    You dont need to be a lawyer: In your everyday work you have to respect copyright and authorship rights. You are not allowed to copy any (creative) work and post it otherwhere where you don't have the explicit right to do so. Copying protected content and removing the original copyright notices (in german Urheberrecht) can in european countries give a penalty of maximum 3 years jail, at least theoretically. If its is visible for 10k+ users it is still published, it is not a private copy visible for a few friends. There should be something like a request for permanent deletion here in SO.
    – AlexWien
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:10
  • Please don't post wrong facts, now you know that 10k+ users can see that post, so you should edit your answer.
    – AlexWien
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:50
  • @AlexWien, only that it is not a creative work, it is a compilation.
    – SergeyA
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 19:22
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    "Please don't post wrong facts" Jeez, lighten up, he didn't know before, it's not like he was intentionally trying to mislead others.
    – BoltClock
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 4:07
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This is an answer to

Should answers deleted due to copyright violation still be visible to high rep users?

This is not an answer for the question this question refers to which was not the subject of a DMCA request.

I do not think that leaving the DMCA'ed content at least view-able to 13K+ people should be done. To me this feels like we are short changing the author as it is still distributed(at least viewable) to our 10K+ rep users.

If a DMCA request leads to an answer being deleted then it should be removed completely. That said I think that it should not happen right away. First the question should be deleted as it is right now. Then there should be some sort of communication to the author of the answer letting them know and and we should give them some amount of time to fix the deleted answer into something that would not violate the copyright. At then end of that time limit the answer should be reviewed again and it if it still in violation then it should be permanently deleted.

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    This answer is based on the false assumption that a DMCA takedown request was sent. In actuality, the owner just self-deleted the post.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 20:05
  • @Servy I added to the answer to explain that. Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 20:08
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The clear answer is NO.
Such content should not be visible for 10k+ users, as I am. The question still is visible and searchable therfore the answer is visible and therfore it is published for all 10k users.
The amount of 10k+ user exceeds what can be named as a private audience.

There is no orginal authorship info visible in the post.

So there should be a feature for permanent removal of such posts, maybe with a selection Box for permanent deletion with cause.

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    There is always a permanent delete option for the SO devs - they can completely remove the post from the database. There is no need to opening permanent deletion up to anyone else, since no one else will handle a true DMCA take down request for a copyright violation. Regular users and mods shouldn't need to worry about it. However, if the copywritten content is not being removed or obfuscated in some way, there may need to be a policy change on that Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:32
  • @psubsee2003 If somebody is aware that he broke copyright laws, he should have the possibility to remove his post permanently. A DMCA take down is another topic, it is one that is initiated from the copyright holder, In the case I described the poster must be have the right to delete his wrong action. As long as it is still visible for 10k+ user it is a copyright violation, especially now when this is known.
    – AlexWien
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:43
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    Searchable? Seach doesn't work for deleted content regardless of reputation. Not sure about diamond moderators.
    – Qwertiy
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:50
  • @Qwertiy The question is not deleted, therefore you find the question, which then shows the deleted answer.
    – AlexWien
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:52
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    "If somebody is aware that he broke copyright laws, he should have the possibility to remove his post permanently" that gives the user too much power over the community. They could abuse it by deleting their stuff without letting others undelete stuff.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:52
  • But you can't find the question by contents of the deleted answer. Also you can't find deleted answer itself. You just get it as a bonus if you found the question by some other query.
    – Qwertiy
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:54
  • Yes, there will be some abuse, and will be. But this is does not happen often. As long as the user deltes his own post, this is not to much power.
    – AlexWien
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:55
  • @Qwertiy It is not a question whether the answer is searchable. As long as the question is searchable the semi-deleted answer appears, and therfore it is published.
    – AlexWien
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 17:58
  • If a user needs to remove a post completely, they can simply contact Stack Exchange and explain. They can also edit the answer to replace the copywritten content and flag for a moderator to destroy the previous revision. By giving them the power to remove posts, it gives them too much power to remove or hide content without any oversight at all (which is why deleted posts are still visible to 10K users). Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 18:08
  • It would be interesting to know, how often deleted post will be undeleted by community. I doubt that this happens often.
    – AlexWien
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 18:17
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    @ryanyuyu What if there was a "delete permanently" button that, when clicked, required you to submit an explanation for why, and would be reviewed by mods? You don't give too much power to people who mean well but don't get how the site works, and you allow people to take down their content permanently without requiring a DMCA request from the copyright holder.
    – Nic
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 19:27
  • @QPaysTaxes maybe. Only SO employees have access to that stuff, so only certain mods would be able to handle that. Even then I'd guess they would err on the side of caution and usually decline such requests as frivolous or unsubstantiated.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 19:58
  • @ryanyuyu The queue could be limited to SE employees as well. I'm just throwing ideas at the all and seeing what's gooey enough to stick.
    – Nic
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 20:08
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First things first. The copyright is not something that can be just claimed by putting a bunch of words together. Not everything is copyrightable to begin with, otherwise, we'd be completely without legally allowed phrases by now.

In particular, pure compilations can not be copyrighted. Since the answer in question is a effectively a compilation (from the C standard), it can not be legally a matter for copyright dispute. Now it is a question of goodwill - should you quote original author of the compilation or not is an ethical, not legal question.

As such, I see no problems with making posts visible - as with other posts deleted for ethical reasons.

Here is a legal definition:

Compilations of data or compilations of preexisting works (also known as “collective
works”) may also be copyrightable if the materials are selected, coordinated,
or arranged in such a way that the resulting work as a whole constitutes
a new work. 

From http://copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf. It is clear that the particular answer does not constitute a new work.

What is even more interesting is that the offended author himself might have violated the copyright laws (from the same page):

Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare,
or to authorize someone else to create, an adaptation of
that work. The owner of a copyright is generally the author
or someone who has obtained the exclusive rights from the
author. ... The unauthorized adaption of
a work may constitute copyright infringement.

As I am sure original author does not have exclusive rights on C standard, he could not prepare this compilation legally.

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    Copyright, in the jurisdictions I'm familiar with (US), actually is claimed solely by putting a bunch of words together. That's kind of how it works. And you can't escape copyright just by tagging a bit of extra stuff on top, so if that's your argument, it's patently false. (Pun not originally intended.) Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 19:40
  • @NathanTuggy, you should probably read this: copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf
    – SergeyA
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 19:42
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    Yes? Your point? Compilations can be copyrighted on top of whatever copyrights may exist; that doesn't mean the compiler gets a free pass on copying the originals! I can't see the answer, so I can't tell if it's copying someone else's legally-arranged compilation, or compiling (possibly illicitly) itself from the original sources. If it's the former, you haven't quite made the argument yet; if it's the latter, there isn't actually an argument at all that I can see. Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 19:47
  • @NathanTuggy, the answer is a compilation from C standard. Pure compilations can not be coprighted. Simple.
    – SergeyA
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 19:48
  • Thanks, your edit got to where I was going with this. Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 19:50
  • I don't think the relevant material is a compilation from the C standard at all. The material from the C FAQ quotes a small part of the C standard (3 bullet points and a couple of sentences) — call that two paragraphs. There are six other paragraphs that discuss what the standard wording means — but it is emphatically not material from the standard. So, the C FAQ answer is not 'a compilation from the C standard'. Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 12:25
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    You are misunderstanding the meaning of In particular, pure compilations can not be copyrighted. It means that if I make a compilation, I can not automatically claim copyright for it. The copyright for the works compiled remains untouched. Otherwise, anyone could just make a compilation of, say, the current #1 hit singles and distribute it on their own terms.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 12:59
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    What you are saying here is ludicrous. Your argument hinges on the fact that the original content is no more than a compilation of portions of the C++ language standard, but that is patently untrue. There is a single quotation from the standard, properly attributed and unarguably falling under "fair use" guidelines. Then the rest of the entry is the author's interpretation of the standard, which is certainly copyrightable. And, in fact, by the guidelines established by the Berne Convention, is copyrighted as soon as it is published.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 13:29
  • @CodyGray, downvote all you want, bu the fact remains - this is a compilation. Change the standard and the FAQ will have to be changed (to remain correct). The fact that it is not exact quotation doesn't change it's compilation status.
    – SergeyA
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 16:22
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    A dependency relationship does not establish that it is a compilation. If I write a book about programming Windows, and Microsoft changes the Windows programming model in a later version, my book will have to be changed or it will be obsolete. The fact that I quote from the official documentation in a few places in my book does not, however, make the book merely a "compilation" of the documentation, so long as the book's primary content is in my own words—explanation/interpretation of the documentation, examples applying, etc. It is not hypothetical, Petzold's works are all copyrighted.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 28, 2016 at 7:06

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