43

CLOS: how to call a less specific method? seems to have reached a stable state of messiness and I'm a little lost about what to do next to clean it up and whether I should even worry about cleaning it up.

First things first: Yes, I am a little frustrated with OP's behavior for various reasons. But the original question is legitimate for other people coming to Common Lisp from a different background and I want to focus on the long-term usefulness of it. Here is what went wrong in my opinion:

  • OP added an Appendix section to provide a more detailed example: that was fine, even though I don't think the additional section was necessary.

  • Then, more Appendix sections were added in order to provide summaries of existing answers, which is not recommended. I also think that those summaries are not helpful, because OP uses inaccurate terminology to explain what others already explained well- What we have is his own understanding of the provided answers. I think this would not benefit anyone else having the same question because these summaries add confusion to existing answers.

  • The summaries only cover the questions that OP is willing to consider, and do not address answers that say "don't do it" (some of those are mine, but that's irrelevant). This might distract casual readers.

  • Eventually, OP decided to remove Appendix 3, where he explained what he finally chose to do and put it into a self-answer and accepted it. That alone would be fine but that answer is really of poor quality by itself because it shows very bad Common Lisp code and wrong/sloppy wordings (I downvoted it). If OP bases his answer on Dirk's one, which is a good answer, he can just accept that one instead.

The result is a really verbose question which could be edited to fit into a paragraph and an example code. I'm not sure if I should do it, though. I'm not really into edit wars and I generally only make minor changes to questions. Also, I feel I am a little too involved in this question. On the other hand, I really feel that the question contains factually wrong explanations that should simply be removed.

I would really appreciate another opinion (some feedback or advice). Should I try to clean up the question, and if so how? Or shall I just leave it as it is?

18
  • 8
    That question is just a mess overall. I have no clue about Lisp, but this stuff is cluttered and annoying for anyone trying to read it.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 9:46
  • 13
    Aww, an OP that is actively involved in the Q+A. But yeah, that got a bit out of hand. You can rollback to revision 6 without doing too much harm afaict. DV bad answers. If it is too fubar then consider posting your own Q+A pair to address the core issue and CV this one as a duplicate. Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 11:16
  • It looks almost like a question more suited to Code Review
    – br3w5
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 12:27
  • 4
    Dirk's answer helped OP to find the code which solves HIS problem. The question is long and messy, sure but in the end the accepted answer should be the one which solves the problem, shouldn't it? Regarding to your question: Since it's so messy maybe some of the content useful for his specific problem will be lost in the process if you clean it.
    – CM2K
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 13:29
  • My concern would be: if you do the work yourself, what is going to prevent the OP from repeating this behavior forever and ever? The biggest win here is when the OP learns why this is not a good practice and stops doing it, and not so much that this one question is cleaned up. On the other hand: leading by example is pretty much the only way you can get things done on SO.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 16:11
  • 1
    @Gimby OP has not yet shown any bad behavior about edits from others but I don't know what effect a massive edit would have. I am considering letting him a chance to make the job first. I could still make other edits if necessary if there are still major inaccuracies. Also, I'll probably merge my two answers first and clean them up too.
    – coredump
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 16:25
  • 4
    Basically everything you've listed here is a reason to downvote the answer. It mis-representing other answers, not choosing what aspects to summarize well, including superfluous information, etc. are all reasons to downvote a post. While you can disagree with the OP's choice over what to accept, at the end of the day it's their decision. You get your vote, and they get theirs. He's not committing voting fraud, so it won't be reversed by anyone.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 17:00
  • 5
    It looks like this is an OP that doesn't quite understand how SO works. I'm not crazy about the constant edits to the question to add the solutions. The question and answers should remain distinct, otherwise this is just a blog post. If the OP wanted to write a summary answer, that would be better. It isn't exactly fair for him to write up somebody else's answer and then accept it either - the credit should be given to the person who wrote the answer. If it is based on another answer but better (for whomever), than that is a different matter. I don't know Lisp so can't judge.
    – Matthew
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 6:31
  • 3
    Sure guys, have at it. Here was the evolution. First coredump said it was an XY problem, and asked for a concrete example. That lead to the first appendix, another example. Then coredump suggested the closer-mop answer, which at first seemed good, but after discussion on question 35220471 it was determined to be dangerous due to hazards on the method call. Dirk's answer was next best, but it was incomplete. As it shared details statically. It could be fixed with a CLOS wrapper. Hence the next appendix and the comment on Dirks post suggesting it be made an answer. It sat there a while
    – user3446498
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 6:47
  • @Magisch "I have no clue about Lisp" that by itself should've been the first and most important clue for you and others alike that perhaps you're not equipped to judge the merits of this particular question, and it is better to just leave it to actions of those who are (equipped). I sure did.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 13:13
  • 3
    @willness some things like formatting quality and lenght transcend understanding in the subject matter. I dont need to know lisp to know that this is poorly presented
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 13:23
  • @Magisch sure, but do this poor presentation outweighs the merits of the question? are all the long-winded appendices totally superfluous?
    – Will Ness
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 13:25
  • @willness a question can only be as useful as its weakest element. But I didnt DV it. I did DV the self answer though, as it strikes me as an attempt to lift content
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 13:27
  • @Magisch I thought usefulness is sum of its parts, not their product. As for DV-ting the answer, again, the answerer claims it solves their problem. Isn't it what answers are supposed to do? Esp. for down-votes, I always thought that only those who have understanding of the merits should do that, to not mislead the future readers. -- "lift content" as in, "steal"? hmm, can't say that I see it. But then again, I have only a shallow understanding of CLOS.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 13:38
  • 1
    @WillNess I usually use my DV's to indicate "This is not useful" which is the case for a cluttered answer like this one. The "lifting content" part is more of a personal bug bear of mine.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 14:16

3 Answers 3

13

The question and the answer have been edited, cleaned up now. The OP's answer in particular is straightforward and to the point, contains working code and discussion.

All the good down-voters are encouraged to retract their down-votes on both the answer and the question now.

("good" i.e. aiming to improve the quality of that Q&A entry, as they undoubtedly were, — which is now achieved).

The amount of downvotes on the good (now) question and answer is ridiculous.


As for the original question (this, meta one), I think the additions into the question were needed, but are not recommended to make.

Instead, new question should have been asked, linking to the original one and explaining why the existing answers were unsatisfactory; asking for new answers to address those remaining ⁄ new concerns. that way each Q&A entry is clean, well organized and self-contained.

But instead of giving this advice to the OP, they received an avalanche of unexplained down-votes coming from meta participants (and quite a few up-votes to negate those). I don't think that was particularly helpful.

2
  • The "electron" example was removed from the question, but most answers still reference it. I was about to reintroduce the original code but didn't: maybe we should just edit the answers to avoid talking about that example and focus on the simpler one. Any thought on this?
    – coredump
    Commented Feb 17, 2016 at 8:33
  • 1
    @coredump- no, no, the answers should be left alone. The relevant stuff that's now missing, should be re-introduced into the question, I think.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Feb 17, 2016 at 8:36
19

The question gets bigger and bigger and this leads to no good.

Should I try to clean up the question?

If you wish, it would be nice.

and if so how?

Roll-back (from the edit section) to a version of the question that would be OK, in your opinion (as Hans Passant said, revision 6 would be an option).

Or shall I just leave it as it is?

No.

("It is absolutely ok to do nothing. Nobody here has any obligation to do anything whatsoever." – juergen d [from comments])

When you see a question reaching (or it may had it from the very start) a bad state, do something, don't just walk away. So, a good act would to try to edit as discussed above or use a close vote. I feel that a Too broad close vote would be fair, if the question is unlikely to recover from an edit (or from a stubborn OP that would lead you into a war edit).

9
  • 12
    It is absolutely ok to do nothing. Nobody here has any obligation to do anything whatsoever.
    – juergen d
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 13:26
  • 16
    Watches as old lady struggles to get back up and pick up the scattered contents of her grocery bag. :-) Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 13:40
  • On point @Jean-FrançoisCorbett and juergen d!
    – gsamaras
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 14:38
  • Thanks, I'll think about it a little more and try an edit.
    – coredump
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 14:44
  • 6
    We're all equally responsible for fixing things. If OP can't or won't fix it, then we're just as responsible to step up and do something. It's not all on their shoulders. Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 16:58
  • with great power comes great responsibility.
    – NiuBiBang
    Commented Feb 15, 2016 at 18:03
  • 2
    yeah suggest you all do something, as the answer that worked, and is going into the production code is now marked -4 or so do to style complaints here, rather than technical merit. Now that the thread safety question is addressed it is clear that ascent's answer would also work. Much of coredumps input begs the question, rather than answers it - but I found that dialog very interesting and instructive, though true, it did become blog like. I'm still trying to find some time to grock his last post on the subject others will be interested also.
    – user3446498
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 8:34
  • @user244488 I can't help but shake the feeling that you wanted to double-dip reputation from a self answer and question. Now that you're here anyways, please consider going and editing your question into proper readability. I won't comment on technical merits here, since I'm not an expert in the field of your question, but still.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 14:36
  • 1
    @Magisch we should never assume bad motives. Look at the dates, to completely put you at ease re: your bad feeling. It's baseless. :) The OP even first accepted another answer, as is clear from comments. Only after they thought they found a better approach, did the self answer happen.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Feb 16, 2016 at 17:46
5

Well, he is a new user (as I am), maybe he is well-intentioned, trying to actively (but misguidely) participate in the QA process and he just doesn't understand how Stack Overflow works. Maybe he thinks that the rest of askers are just to lazy to participate as he does. That happened to me. I still haven't written a good question. (The day will come, I'm sure!)

So maybe edit and a short and polite explanation of why his additions are not needed nor recommended?

1
  • yes, that explanation seems right. about the additions, they were needed, but are not recommended. instead, new question should have been asked, linking to the original one and explaining why the existing answers were unsatisfactory; asking for new answers to address these remaining/new concerns. that way each Q&A entry is clean, well organized and self-contained.
    – Will Ness
    Commented Feb 17, 2016 at 10:44

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .