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I guess this essentially boils down to 'quality questions vs helping noobs' or 'does SO suffer from elitism'. (And turned out not to really be a question)

The SO 'mission statement' (if you would call it that) said "Better programming is our goal". But where does better programming come from, good documentation of problems and solutions, or teaching people to program? The answer is obviously both, but does SO do both? I personally don't think so.

I worry that focusing (entirely) on good questions will be bad for the site long term. As new people start programming they will end up searching (Google usually leads to SO) and asking often bad, duplicated, simple questions due to lack of simple knowledge, and this gets annoying. However this doesn't stop once people grasp the basics of program, the learning curve continues through OO programming, good design and structure, testing, frameworks and other new techniques that will be developed in the future. It takes a long time to become a competent programmer, and even longer to become 'good'.

I have two examples from the first two questions I asked which I still have. They were closed for being too broad or unclear after getting answers which I accepted. Questions are here and here.

I can understand that they are not great questions (I also state this in the questions themselves), and I don't mind that they were down voted, if you don't like a question that is your prerogative (although comments explaining why they are bad help). However, while some people felt they were bad questions, in each case they were answered and those answers benefited my knowledge hugely. Namely they got me to look into reflection and design patterns.

I have always had trouble picking up new programming concepts until I could see a clear example where it helped me with a problem that I was currently working on. It took me quite a long time to see the benefit of OO programming, now I don't think I could write anything without OO. Basically the whole you can have a class called animal, then inherit from it to make different types of animal... etc, didn't really help me get OO. I got OO once I got to a problem and someone actually showed me how re-structuring my code into classes would make everything much easier.

Now imagine if they were closed before someone could answer, for the first question I would have given up on that particular feature, for the second one I would have written some horrible hard to read code that did the job, but badly. Yes they were too vague for some people to understand, or people simply didn't want to spend long deciphering my bad question, but someone did and I'm really glad they did.

So can we achieve "Better programming" without explaining to people who ask those bad questions, due to their lack of knowledge, that their problem isn't purely "you need this code" but "you need this code plus this knowledge to write your program properly".

If we don't accommodate learning those new users won't stop asking bad questions, they will just ask them somewhere else, and SO will slowly die. But those of us who are willing to answer the bad question just might help someone become a better programmer, and they might stick around and start asking (and answering) better questions.

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    "However this doesn't stop once people grasp the basics of program[ming]" I'd argue that part of the basics of programming is learning how to search, and how to ask a good question. It's possible to ask a good question about something you don't know much about.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 16:46
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    "If we don't accommodate learning those new users won't stop asking bad questions, they will just ask them somewhere else," --- We want users to ask bad questions somewhere else....that's the point.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 16:47
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    Easy, beginner questions can be on topic for stack overflow, but they still have to follow all of our quality standards. I don't see what you're getting at here.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 16:49
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    I don't know where everyone keeps getting these ideas like "beginners can't ask questions here" and "questions are downvoted for being easy." My very first question was a beginner one. It's my highest voted question thus far. Like Kevin B said, it's not a matter of how easy the question is but of how well it's asked. Ask a question in an unclear way, or without showing what you've tried, expect downvotes. If it's unclear, expect close votes. Simple as that. These questions aren't bad because they're beginner questions- They're bad because they don't follow the standard of quality.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 16:58
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    "what I'm getting at is that closing their question isn't going to make them ask better questions in the future if they don't learn anything." Closing their questions gives them a nice little blurb about what exactly is wrong with their question. We tell them how they can fix the question and most of the time, they ignore that blurb. They won't ask better questions if they don't learn anything, you're right. But what they aren't learning that would help them is how to read what we're telling them they need to do to fix the question. No amount of programming knowledge will fix this.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:05
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    'x doesn't work' is different from 'how do I do x' in that it's automatically assumed you tried something for 'x' to find out it doesn't work. When the former questions get shut down, it's because they don't show what they tried (often times) and therefore we can't help them. In the latter example, it's often times the case that the user has tried nothing at all and just wants us to tell them how they can do it so they can copy/paste the code over. If they aren't this kind of user, they typically respond well to requests to clarify their question and show what they've tried.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:11
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    @Mike159 so, this may sound rude, but it isn't. I'm just exaggerating my point to make it more blatant. Stack gets 8K questions A DAY (IIRC). Let's say 20% are terrible questions like the ones you describe. That's 1,6K questions A DAY that need that kind of hand-holding. Can we get your cellphone number and personal email so that you can answer each individually? The problem here is THAT: scalability. with the scale stack currently works at, we can't simply give THAT much help to every new user on every new topic. Unfortunate, yes. Instead Stack tries to build a repo of good knowledge.
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:26
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    Since there is not enough experts to give all this free tutorial like knowledge, Stack decided to build a long lasting repository of knowledge. This way, programming becomes better, because people who care about researching a bit CAN get their solution. I often say on meta that the main issue to me seems that people think we're a helpdesk. Why? Our answers are TOO popular on google. So whenever you search "how does X work". if X is programming, you WILL see Stack in there. So you think Stack can answer ANYTHING about coding. Then you create an account, ask a bad question, and expect an answer
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:29
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    @Mike159 it may still be unclear. Maybe the one answer you got made an assumption? Maybe he understood something in your question that 5 other members couldn't see? The fact ONE guy understands doesn't mean it's clear. If it's unclear, chances are it won't pop in a lot of Google searches. Stack is all about that: the value to the NEXT guy with the same issue. To help that, we like to have good, clear questions to help people who search for similar issues get their answer (admittedly I've not looked into your question, so I may just be talking sh*t right now :P)
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:33
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    @Mike159 most definitely. But when your question gets closed as unclear, it explains what you should do to get it reopened. Doing so means you edit it, which bumps it to the top of the new questions. So if you edit it into a clearer shape, you will likely get the same answer. A big problem that happens is also new users don't want to learn the system so think closed = you're done, when closed = please correct what's lacking, then we'll be happy to help.
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:38
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    @Mike159 see that's a point I give you in full : Stack looks very unfriendly if you don't know how it works. My take on this: new users have a LOT of resources about how the system works. From meta, to the help center, the information is THERE. We even ask new users to read the tour. Each closing message links into help center. New users HAVE the resources. If they don't use it.... what can we do?
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:46
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    @Mike159 as an aside, consider that most new users, when faced with this situation, don't come to meta with an open mind like you do. Most of the time, we get called "police", "nazis", "idiots who downvote what they can't understand". I've also recently seen a user LITERALLY say "I don't care about your quality rules, just answer my questions". This is what normally happens when new users aren't clear on Stack's way. You can guess why veterans don't want to hand-hold if that's the expected reaction
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:48
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    If you treat a garage technician, doctor, lawyer or accountant the same way SO contributors are treated, you end up with a $xxxx extra on your bill. Nobody would just dump their car at a garage with a note 'Fix my car, i need it tomorrow', so why are skilled and experienced engineers on SO different?... oh yeah, we don't get paid, so it's fine to slag us off and treat us as lowlifes. Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:52
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    @Mike159 - if someone craps on your front porch and wipes their hands on your door even though there is a sign that says where actually take a dump and find tp, why should you care if they whine (that having a question closed/down voted might put them off) about getting hit by the water hose as you clean up the mess they made? I guess it comes down to how well they understand the working of SO, no It comes down to how selfish they are. And how much they care about looking like selfish entitled brats. The anonymous usernames do not help the latter.
    – user177800
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:53
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    this question is just apologetics and mainly to blame for the entitlement attitude that prevails the "summer of love" generation of SO users.
    – user177800
    Commented Dec 15, 2015 at 17:58

1 Answer 1

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A "good" question is not the same thing as an "advanced topic" question.

An "easy" or "newbie" question is not the same as a bad question.

In my experience (which is admittedly mostly as a lurker), questions get downvoted for:

  • Being unclear
  • Not giving any indication that the asker put any real effort into solving it before asking
  • Being a duplicate of a very commonly asked question (which falls into the same category as the previous item)
  • Not showing what they tried

I don't see many (if any) instances of questions getting negative scores without meeting at least one of those criteria.

I've asked a couple of relatively basic questions over time. The worst thing that happened? I didn't get any upvotes. In only one case did I not get an answer at all, but I still received useful feedback in comments.

Note that even in your example questions, you received what appears to be useful feedback, pointing you towards improving your skills.

Overall, I disagree with your stated concerns, and feel that discouraging bad questions (as opposed to "simple" questions) should continue. Certainly the site is not in danger of slowly dying, as this treatment of bad questions is far from a new thing.

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