88

I just had the misfortune of trying to make SO a little better by tidying up this question with my dupehammer. It was a clear duplicate - the OP states that they want the "total of all characters" without having to get the count of each character and manually add them all up. Note that such a basic question demonstrates poor research effort in the first place, but whatever - that's what the dupehammer is for.

However, most people who ran across the question saw count(), ignored the bulk of the question, and started dumping out completely wrong comments and answers. I closed the question as a duplicate within about five minutes, but that wasn't fast enough. With all that momentum, it became a Counter-related question. The OP even muddied the waters by mistaking the link in some random (and incorrect) comment for the legit duplicate target link and complaining that the dupe was bad.

One of the Counter answerers deleted their answer almost immediately after I explained the issue - presumably they saw my comment, reviewed the question, and figured that a wrong answer on a duplicate question wasn't very useful. Good on them.

However, it took 20 minutes of complaining at me for the OP and the remaining answerer to finally understand their failures to read that question and its linked duplicate.

And then what did that answerer do?

Why, they added the solution from the linked duplicate to the end of their (totally incorrect) answer, of course!

And then what did the asker do?

Why, they upvoted and accepted that answer, of course!

So now a FGITW answerer who dumps out garbage and then doesn't even clean up the garbage when adding the linked dup's info to their answer gets 23 points, and I get poor treatment and the feeling of being useless. And a bit of nausea/dizziness.

I've been trying my very best to help curate SO, but whenever A) it's totally ineffective, B) I get complaints instead of thanks, and C) one of the very users ruining my curation efforts gets both thanked and rewarded... what in the world am I even doing?

So, here are some suggestions that would encourage me to keep trying to help:

  1. Make users unable to even start drafts of answers until a question has aged a bit - maybe five or ten minutes.
  2. Provide rep for curation (revoked with interest for reversals).
  3. Provide badges for consistently high-quality curation.
  4. Provide some other kind of Internet points for curation.
  5. Make answers on duplicate questions incur a rep penalty.
  6. Make accepts on duplicate questions provide no rep.

If nothing changes, I don't know how long I'll be able to tolerate the negativity and hostility I get from people who ask and answer duplicate and/or low-quality questions, and I really would like to keep helping SO.

Just to be clear: I'm perfectly fine with curating effectively for no response. If I dupehammer a question and nothing else happens with it, that's fine. It'll disappear and get Roomba'ed. I don't need any extrinsic positive reinforcement for that. It's enough for me to know that the system works and I helped.

But if I curate and get complaints and criticism while my curation efforts get ruined, that'll put a huge damper in my motivation to continue trying, and I'll need some kind of positive result (Internet points for me, loss of Internet points for the ruiners, no gain of Internet points for the ruiners, I don't know) if I'm to keep helping.

TL;DR: I try to help, but, all too often, people break my help and shout at me and get rewarded for it.

17
  • 34
    Downvote, downvote, downvote the poor answer. Although, perhaps the fact that a question can be answered within five minutes is a signal that not enough research is done?
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 22, 2015 at 8:27
  • 17
    We'll get it deleted. Fwiw, I had a very similar case and it got resolved by my comments getting deleted. The Huns broke through the gate, we need more T-shirts. Commented Nov 22, 2015 at 10:12
  • The linked question isn' t the same. It asked about the size of the encoded bytes on disk and the unfortunately accepted answer isn't correct (it doesn't work for characters that encode to multiple bytes and getsizeof thing was way off the mark). OP was justifiably confused and asked several questions trying to get clarification. I'm not entirely convinced that OP wanted len and asking for clarification before duping would likely have helped him more.
    – tdelaney
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 1:24
  • 1
    @tdelaney - The linked question asks how to get the size of a string. The accepted answer provides the len() that suffices for the closed question, and I don't see why getsizeof() wouldn't work for the linked question. If you believe it's wrong, you should explain the issue in a comment on it (and, ideally, add a better answer as well). Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 4:02
  • 6
    @TigerhawkT3: One scenario you have no considered => sometimes a duplicate is only noticed later: an older question is closed as duplicate of a clearer newer question because in the end we care little about "being first", we only care about quality... however, why should we penalize the answers on the older question? For a limited amount of time (possibly years) they provided help. Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 15:22
  • 2
    What's the acronym FGITW?
    – Stephan
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 20:21
  • 13
    @Stephan Fastest Gun in the West. Did I beat anyone to it?
    – Stryner
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 20:22
  • 35
    Fastest gun in the DAMNIT!!!!!
    – rjdown
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 20:24
  • 1
    For the rewards for finding duplicates, there have been a few questions about that. The duplicate target on MSO being meta.stackoverflow.com/q/280568/215552, whose answer suggests a badge for finding duplicates. Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 20:36
  • @Makoto Probably most of the time, but not always; there's always a chance that someone knows the answer to a question because they've been dealing with it recently and are able to provide an answer, or the skeleton of one, in around 5 minutes.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 21:03
  • 1
    I've been wondering whether FGITW is frowned upon by everyone under all circumstances. I once saw a multiple-100k rep user post a short answer to a minute-old question, and then make several edits in the next few minutes, fleshing it out to an extensive (and good) answer. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 0:44
  • 8
    Entirely frowned upon. That user should have been able to write his good, extensive answer without publishing the incomplete, draft version. But you don't get to 100k rep by writing good, extensive answers and then posting them. You get there by writing fast answers, then making them good if nobody got there faster than you. Which is silly.
    – aroth
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 1:01
  • 1
    @aroth Well, I do remember Jon Skeet saying it just might not be a problem, and Jeff Atwood saying there was never FGITW issue to begin with. I have to disagree that it's frowned upon by everyone. Also, if you look at the top guns, I don't think people claim that they are providing bad answers...
    – eis
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 8:11
  • @eis - I think that query is potentially misleading. It's looking at a badge that's awarded for a first answer that gets accepted with at least 10 upvotes. You might get that by playing FGITW, yes, but you might also get it by focusing on answering nontrivial/harder questions that others (and especially, other FGITW players) tend to not answer. A query that did an analysis based upon how soon their answers were posted might be more interesting. However, I'm happy to revise my prior statement to "Entirely frowned upon, by me". I don't speak for anybody else.
    – aroth
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 8:30
  • 1
    You surely have good intentions, but if this kind of behaviour really bothers you, you might want to tone down a bit your comments when closing or downvoting a probable duplicate: you might get better results with less fuss. I've seen this pattern a few time, and you often could seem a bit overzealous, especially if the answerer had good intentions and honestly tried to answer the question without gaming SO. Finally, your avatar shows how much you value your precious Python golden badge and your prompt closing might give the impression that you want to prevent others from getting it as well. Commented Apr 11, 2017 at 10:02

8 Answers 8

14

That is a worst-case scenario. My condolences. I think the problem with that one is that the author of the question articulated and formatted the question abnormally well, making it look quite legit at a glance, and especially in relation to the extreme naivety of the actual programming-related question being asked and the assumptions being made. Then you had an equally worst-case scenario on the one providing the answer.

But I must disagree with small parts of this feature request even though I agree with the idea in general.

  • Make answers on duplicate questions incur a rep penalty.
  • Make accepts on duplicate questions provide no rep.

It places equal liability on people providing answers to do the job that was supposed to be done by the person asking the question.

I really think it's too difficult to try to punish answers to duplicates beyond down-voting, and it's because if we really break every question asked here down into detail, the vast majority of the site would consist of duplicates.

I realize that's a very cynical way to look at it (I want just as much as anyone to try to prevent these questions from being asked at all), but take some tags I'm interested in like [c] or [c++]. In those, so many questions boil down to the same kind of template of, "How do pointers actually work? Why do I segfault when accessing stack memory that was freed?" Things like that.

Where they vary specifically is just context and subtle details, and that puts them into this awkward grey zone where they could be considered legit one day and a duplicate another depending on who looked at it in the earlier stages. What doesn't vary is that some of the answers and comments are genuinely trying to help the author.

To me this is the awkward part. It would become extremely tedious on the part of those seeking to provide legitimate answers to do the job of the person asking the question. Not everyone has the patience to be in a moderator-style mindset all day long. That's why, I assume, we encourage well-formulated questions. It's to save time on the part of those providing the answers.

If the ultimate goal is cleanliness, I agree that this should really help even to include those two items. It would transfer some moderation-style responsibilities to everyone involved to help keep the site clean, making everyone reluctant to even provide an answer to a question before they do a very thorough search. But there's also the desire to balance the workload between the person raising the question and the person providing the answer.

In your case, I think due justice was served. That answer has gone into the negatives, along with the question. And I commend the exceptional effort here at moderation to truly break down what the author was asking and realize a simple redirection was actually addressing the heart of the problem.

Also, I really agree with the side that provides incentives for such quality moderation -- only these minor parts that want to punish the people providing the answers of those who asked a redundant question.

8
  • 1
    I disagree about it being formulated abnormally well. I think a quick comment seeking clarification before duping would have been helpful.
    – tdelaney
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 1:26
  • The moderation? I wish the question didn't vanish so that I can review it again, but IIRC, the user was asking how to count all kinds of characters in a string without individually handling every possible character imaginable. Unless I also misinterpreted, it seemed like Tiger cut straight through and figured that the author was ultimately asking just how to get the length of a string.
    – user4842163
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 1:43
  • 1
    "Unless I also misinterpreted" that's what I mean. Several good commentators had different interpretations and were puzzled by the duping. OP was also confused. When I read "the total of all characters in the input" I thought the counts of individual characters like others did.
    – tdelaney
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 1:55
  • For that part I thought I reviewed it carefully -- though my memory is already fuzzy. I think he started out wanting to count characters like 'a', 'b', 'c', then he wanted to know how to include like punctuation, decimals, numbers -- the whole shebang without handling every single character individually.
    – user4842163
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 2:27
  • Though I'm kinda diplomatic -- if I make a point of disagreement, I try to commend the efforts anyway. I do have thoughts on hasty redirections -- though I think OP was actually very careful here. But sometimes I see redirections where it does clearly gloss over the details of the author's question. There's definitely an awkwardness there between the site wanting to stay clean and not accidentally shutting down legit questions. There's a fastest gun in the west kind of thing sometimes going on too for closing threads and not just answering them. But here I think OP was very careful.
    – user4842163
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 2:30
  • 4
    @tdelaney - I think pretty much the only way to misinterpret that question was to read it carelessly. The OP said they wanted "the output to be just the total of all characters in the input," "without typing "+ word.count('_')" for every single possible character." It was a classic XY Problem. Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 4:20
  • @TigerhawkT3 - Not really. Several good commentators had a different interpretation. "total of all characters in the input" has its ambiguities. One challenge of an XY Problem is that you may guess the wrong underlying question. That's why it is useful to ask clarifying questions. Linking to a question about writing to disk ("size depends on the coding of the str") may be confusing.
    – tdelaney
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 4:31
  • 5
    @tdelaney - "good commentators": primarily opinion-based. And the confusion wasn't due to my dup link - when the OP finally saw it, they agreed with it. The confusion was due to a FGITW comment linking to an irrelevant Counter question. Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 4:47
5

(Note: I started this answer very differently, have rewritten it a few times, and ended up with two different “starts” I don’t want to leave out. I unite both lines of thinking later, but don’t be confused.)

I want to start with my opinion that having good answers on a question that is then closed as a duplicate is not a bad thing. Not at all. There are often good questions that tend to appear as something else first so it makes sense to write a good answer for it. There might be a duplicate that covers it properly, but that doesn’t mean that a more specialized answer for that specific question is bad. It is maybe needless, but not bad, and as such not something we should punish.

And those people that happen (or try) to be the FGITW, I don’t think they automatically have bad intentions. Many of them actually spend a good amount of time and work on their answers, maybe starting with a quick and short solution (which already answers the question), expanding it then into a very detailed and amazing answer. I know that I often work like that, deciding to flesh out my answer further after initially pressing the submit button. And I do know that a lot others also work like that. And hell, if we’re being honest, those answers often turn out to be amazing, providing a crazy amount of quality that’s really worth to stay around.

But in order for people to get there, it takes motivation. Motivation that spending that (often not little) time on that one question is actually worth it. It does not necessarily take possible reputation for that motivation. More often than not it is the knowledge that nobody else has answered the question yet. If I come across a good question for which I would be able to provide a good answer, if there are already answers that solve the problem, then the probability is high that I won’t bother to post. Not because I wouldn’t be able to share additional details which could possibly surpass the other answers, but simply because I don’t have the motivation to work on a question which has already been answered. I can’t tell exactly why, but I suspect that it is the “racing” to a high quality answer which I take the most fun out of.

I know that there are people who prefer posting on older questions. Who dig out an older topic, sometimes months old, research and write a very detailed answer for an already solved problem. Thankfully, those answers tend to get the attention they deserve and do get a fair amount of reputation, often overpassing existing answers, and sometimes even getting the accept tick. It is awesome that this works, and that the people who enjoy that are rewarded for their work. But it’s simply not something I want to do all the time.

What I want to say is that FGITW in its essence is not really the problem. It’s totally cool that people take their motivation out of it. What is the problem is that being FGITW is often a requirement for success. That’s a mentality problem. Not necessarily with people answering, but with the community in general.


Let’s look at this from a different perspective. Let’s take the situation TigerhawkT3 experienced as an example:

The Python tag fortunately has a lot of regulars who really care about the tag, spending a huge amount of time to ensure that it’s as good as it is. In order to be able to close duplicates quickly, we even maintain an index of good targets. Some regulars monitoring the new questions even know a majority of good close targets off the top of their head, which makes that even faster. And usually, this all goes really well. Duplicate questions are banhammered really quickly, and other off-topic questions are also closed within a few minutes. So the damage that can be done is often small. And those few answers that may make it through are either good enough (which may give them a few upvotes and an accept—which is fine!), or they are just bad and don’t get any attention (or negative attention…). And this works; most of the time.

But every now again, what was described here happens: Someone, more often than not one who should know better, decides to become zealous about defending their bad answer on a bad question. It’s especially bad if they didn’t even read the question properly and as such produced an incorrect answer. We all make mistakes, regardless of your experience, and we all happen to misinterpret questions some time or another. That’s not so bad, if you then update your answer correctly. And if your answer only contains irrelevant things, then you should rewrite it completely (though, if it’s of some value, I can understand if you want to leave the old content accessible in some way—but with a clear indication that it solves a different problem).

Anyway, I know this is super frustrating for people who spend the time to try to clean up the site. But the best thing we can do in that situation is just to move on, or to step away from the question until OP responds and clears up misunderstandings.

What’s worse is that other tags don’t work as properly. I’m currently working on my C# gold tag, so I can finally start hammering questions, because I had a terrible experience: You can add a duplicate close vote on questions, and people just don’t care. Minutes after I vote for duplicate (making that very visible comment appear), multiple answers can arrive that contain literally the same thing (not copied, but simply identical since the question is so simple). And those answers get upvotes; lots of them; and for all of them. And the question too. Meanwhile, I’m still sitting there, waiting for the question to be closed, which may happen—or it doesn’t. There are sometimes clear duplicates that stay open for another day or so.

Since I’ve had those experiences, I started to look at the other problems differently. Yes, the FGITW is a problem, but what might be worse is that a lot of people participating here are not only participating in the FGITW contest, but that there are probably even more people who don’t care at all about cleaning up the site and trying to maintain a good repository of questions. How else would I explain that for Python, an off-topic or duplicate question takes maybe ~2 minutes to get closed, while for C# (which is at least as big a tag) it can easily take days or not happen at all!

So when you complain about FGITW, I want to complain more about the missing mentality of people to clean up. I don’t want to penalize FGITW; I want to discourage it, make it less necessary, but without having a penalty for those people who happen to be the FGITW but with good intentions. Instead, I want to encourage people to care more. Care about the quality of questions, about the quality of answers; and about cleaning up questions which should be closed, questions which should get no attention.

I’m not sure how we can achieve this, but it is not something we can get from penalties. It’s also difficult to reward people for doing clean up tasks. We don’t want people to handle the whole site as they handle e.g. the review queue where everything gets processed as quickly as possible to be one of those who made a decision (there we have a real FGITW problem; see also). What we need is something that changes the mentality of people, to make it more worthwhile for them to focus on quality on the whole site instead of focusing on their short-term success for a single answer on a bad question.


Finally, as for the suggested solutions, I don’t think they will work. Removing rewards is not fair for those with good intentions (as explained above, there can be good answers even to questions being closed later). On the other hand, giving rewards for cleaning up will create the wrong motivation, since you can only reward the clean-up task but not the ultimate objective of a well maintained site (see review queues). And as for adding a delay for answers, you practically cannot stop people from starting their draft as soon as the question is posted. Sure, hide the editor, but that will not stop people. Many people start working in a REPL anyway, and there is nothing stopping them from writing their answer in a text editor, pasting it in as soon as the time limit is over. And as aroth says, this would only delay the FGITW effect.

But similarly, delaying the visibility of posted answers is also not good. It devalues the amount of work people spend on their answers. Instead of telling them upfront that there are already answers, we leave them with the illusion that there are no answers yet, frustrating them when the answers are then published and they find out that someone else already posted a much more detailed answer which covers everything they have said (I was often in the process of writing an answer just to see that another answer is posted which covers exactly or more of what I was going to write; so I scrap my answer and move on). When we think about solutions, we cannot only think about the bad examples, but we also need to think about the good people with good intentions, writing good answers.

As I am writing this, I have a different suggestion. If we think about it, what is the real problem which FGITW causes? Early answers getting early upvotes and more attention although much better answers may be in development. So not-so-good answers get all the first bunch of votes, (a) adding incentive to be among the first group in order to get votes, and (b) removing the attention from later answers (regardless of quality) because naturally less upvoted answers are shown at the bottom.

So maybe, the solution would be not to delay answers, but to delay votes. Think about it: If we could not vote at all in the first 5 to 10 minutes, all answers would have an equal chance at getting the initial attention from voters. And this would give users to ability to flesh out answers properly without that big pressure to be among the first. And that would maybe help giving less attention to lower-quality answers, removing the incentive to just “shoot first” without thinking about it.

15
  • There are a lot of ideas to hold in one's head for this, so here's my attempted summary of it before I answer it: 1. There are lots of good, fast answers from people who mean well. 2. Duplicates aren't necessarily a bad thing. 3. We should discourage poor behavior without punishment, and encourage good behavior without reward. 3. Instead of an answer lockout period, maybe a voting lockout period. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:22
  • 1
    Not all answers on duplicates are bad. Sometimes, cellophane on a building is modern art, but usually it's trash. Someone who posts a quick answer that they know is incomplete with the intention of editing it later is a FGITW answerer. Someone who posts a complete answer and then later notices some typos to fix or tidbits of data to add is not a FGITW answerer; they're just fast. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:22
  • The C# tag sounds like a great place to earn rep. Answer those duplicate questions, get points, get your hammer, then dupehammer duplicate questions. You'll feel a bit guilty now, sure, but getting your hammer so much more quickly for such a messy tag is a significant net gain in site curation. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:22
  • How do you discourage bad behaviors and encourage good ones without any punishments or rewards? Negative and positive reinforcement form a fundamental training tool - on which SO happens to be based. Negative behaviors like spam and consistently poor questions are punished with question bans, while positive behaviors like answering questions and participating in the review queue are rewarded with rep and badges. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:22
  • How do you tell a puppy that biting hurts without yelping in pain when they bite you (even if it doesn't hurt that much)? They'll be less than perfectly content for a moment, but they'll learn. How do you teach a puppy that sitting when you tell them to is awesome without a treat and some praise? It's a basic principle, and I think we'll need to leverage it if we want to encourage or discourage certain actions or behaviors. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:23
  • Giving rewards for "the clean-up task but not the ultimate objective of a well-maintained site" is exactly as reasonable as giving rewards for "answering questions but not the ultimate objective of a well-maintained site." The review queue rewards good behaviors, but also some bad ones (e.g. robo-reviewing), while rep rewards good behaviors but also some bad ones (e.g. poor FGITW answers, abandoning curation efforts or even actively harming those of others). Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:23
  • We have to build and refine the punishments and/or rewards, not freeze them as they currently are until we can come up with something perfect. "Imperfect solutions might cause problems, therefore we can only implement perfect solutions" is just as fallacious as "something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do this.". Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:23
  • Locking out answers for a few minutes isn't going to prevent people from wanting to post FGITW answers, but it will give curators "first dibs" on processing the new question. I just want a chance at hammering duplicates without seeing three answers (that provide no useful information over the canonical duplicate) pop up in the first two minutes, followed by upvotes all around and an accept. That invalidates the dupehammering process. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:24
  • 1
    If someone who was planning on answering after the lockout really thinks their intended answer is that good, they can post it as an answer on the linked duplicate question. I don't think it would help much to delay votes - you're saying that better answers are often buried under quicker answers, but, even if voting is delayed and the answers are in an arbitrary order, some answers would be buried regardless. People who don't want to dig simply aren't going to dig. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:24
  • Oh wow, I’m only going to reply to some of it… “Someone who posts a quick answer […] with the intention of editing it later is a FGITW answerer.” – But does that make them or the answers bad? I don’t think so. The problem we have with FGITW is the effect that comes afterwards, not from those that post early and then edit to expand it into awesomeness. So yes, those are FGITW answerers, but they are not really a problem. You should differ between “I don’t care about content, I just want to be first” vs. “I care, and produce good quality, just want to be first to have a chance”; both is FGITW.
    – poke
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:46
  • “How do you discourage bad behaviors and encourage good ones without any punishments or rewards?” – That happens in the form of votes though, that should be enough. The problem is that we can’t vote on voters because they reward the wrong things. –– “I just want a chance at hammering duplicates without seeing three answers” – Ok, but that’s a different thing then. There recently was some discussion about a “staging area” for new questions. That’s what you are looking for then. A review stage for questions before any answering is possible.
    – poke
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:46
  • “[…] some answers would be buried regardless” – Yes, but if you see two answers that are very short but answer the question then you’d say they are good and maybe give them an upvote. But if you see two more answers which are maybe three times the size, those are more noticeable, and you are more likely to vote on content quality than on “that solves the question”. […]
    – poke
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:46
  • […] We might even see a behavior where people start downvoting because people don’t invest enough work into their answers compared to others (even though the answer is correct), further promoting the better answers because the worse ones are pushed down. So every answer starts with an equal weight and voting can be much more focused on content and quality than on speediness to “solve” the question.
    – poke
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:46
  • 1
    If an answerer posts fast and knows the answer isn't actually ready... the answerer him/herself knows it's bad. They should post it when they think it's actually ready. Maybe votes aren't enough, and we should brainstorm. I don't want a staging area for questions, I want one for answers. If the question can be closed within 10 minutes, potential answers fail the review and can't be posted. A lot of people just don't look below the fold. Even with invisible votes, I still want a (reasonable) window where I can dupehammer before answers pop up. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 13:14
  • Another indirect problem is that if the first answer is clearly lacking, that will add incentive for others -- even relative newcomers -- to quickly write up a slightly better answer.
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 26, 2015 at 5:39
4

My response to the actions you proposed.

Make users unable to even start drafts of answers until a question has aged a bit - maybe five or ten minutes.

Like it.

It gives users the time to seek clarifications on the question and to locate possible duplicates.

Provide rep for curation

Don' like it.

This provides incentive for aggressive closing of questions that don't deserve to be closed.

Provide badges for consistently high-quality curation.

Not sure. I don't understand how one would assess what qualifies as high quality curation.

Provide some other kind of Internet points for curation.

Same as above.

Make answers on duplicate questions incur a rep penalty.

Don't like it. It will discourage answerers.

Make accepts on duplicate questions provide no rep.

Like the idea. However, it's possible that a new answer has some fresh ideas. Maybe a comment can be left with the answer indicating that if the new answer has some fresh ideas that have not been explored in the duplicate, the OP should manually migrate their answer to the duplicate.

4
  • 2
    If you think about it, rep as it stands provides incentive for aggressive answering of questions that don't deserve to be answered... which is how we ended up here in the first place. Maybe some checks and balances would be in order? Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 1:47
  • 3
    @TigerhawkT3, I agree that the system can be improved. I don't agree that incentivizing aggressive closing is the right approach. I agree that de-incentivizing aggressive answering is the right approach.
    – R Sahu
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 5:10
  • We do not have a problem with aggressive closure of questions. We do have a problem with poor quality and duplicate questions.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Nov 25, 2015 at 8:50
  • @Raedwald, I am not saying that aggressive closure of questions is a problem today. I am saying it will become a problem if we provide incentive in the form of rep points for closing questions.
    – R Sahu
    Commented Nov 28, 2015 at 7:11
4

Clearly meta effect has made everything right in the world, amirite? Not really.

Unfortunately we can't always have the meta effect with us (perhaps there could be like a meta effect bat signal button available on posts). While this one situation is now handled, the pattern described is destined to repeat. I have also seen this happen, and have actually seen worse examples.

I have had users directly copy my answer on the same post to their incorrect answer and get theirs accepted. It was later deleted from flagging it, but that was only one of out many that actually qualified (they had missed the 5 minute edit window and so their edits showed the plagiarism).

This situation of providing the fastest answer versus taking the proper action has existed for a very long time. There is a storied history of going back and forth on meta about how to handle the overall situation and there hasn't been a terribly large amount of headway made. Most of the discussions are at MSE if you were so inclined to read through hours of discourse.

All of your ideas seem to be suggested out of exasperation. I am not sure any of them are viable. The balance is hard to determine, and the amount of users who do not understand the level of existing content greatly outnumber the amount of users who do.

Tipping this on its side a little bit, the core issue of voting content to determine value is derived from a democratic system. However, in order for that system to properly operate we need a very strong voting bloc that understands what it is that they are voting on. When a very large number of users do not fully understand the content, voting becomes skewed; and as a result so does the value of the content.

This leads to an interesting conundrum. We don't want to hold hands, but we also tire of slapping wrists.

In order to help users understand content, do we simply help them by answering questions and ignoring certain historical precedence? Or, do we force historical precedence and attempt to limit the impact of users trying to understand content?

I feel like there has been a large seesaw at Stack Overflow between those two approaches. I am not sure which route is better.

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Make users unable to even start drafts of answers until a question has aged a bit - maybe five or ten minutes.

I'm sure something along those lines has been proposed before. And I don't think it solves the problem. Delay the ability to start answering by 10 minutes and you'll just get FGITW on a 10-minute delay.

The larger issue is, you want people to start drafts. What you don't want is for them to be able to publish their draft while it's in a rough, incomplete, or minimally complete state for the sake of being the "first" answer. And you don't want to discourage the people who would take the time to write good, thorough answers from the start by letting the FGITW players undermine their incentive for doing so.

And in that sense, I think your proposal is on the right track. However what's called for isn't a total ban on drafting (or even submitting) answers, but simply a delay/grace period before submitted answers become visible (and perhaps there are further interactions curation-wise, such as the pending answers being kept in suspended animation if the question is closed before the grace period expires).

So for instance, a question is posted and people can immediately draft and submit answers as they do now, but any answers submitted within the first 15 minutes after the question was created aren't displayed until that 15 minutes has elapsed. At which point they all display at the same time (and possibly all with the same timestamp), on equal footing (or they aren't displayed at all if the question is closed as a duplicate or for any other reason during those first 15 minutes; unless/until the question is later reopened).

In that scenario, people are still able to dump low-quality, FGITW-style answers if they really want to. However as long as there's at least one person around who's interested in providing a good answer and can do so in under 15 minutes, the low-quality answer doesn't stand a chance.

And if that happens, the incentive to play FGITW is greatly diminished. Or rather, the goal of FGITW shifts from "get the fastest published answer even if the quality is absolutely dismal and the research is nonexistent" to "get the best possible answer in 15 minutes or less", because that's how you can get rep from a quick answer in that scenario. Which would be great, because it would change FGITW from being something that's generally detrimental to something that's likely to be generally constructive.

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  • 2
    Related on Meta.SE: Delay before answers are published | Don't show the answers for the question in the first 2 minutes? | Delay before users can see answers (though they were posted before MSO became MSE)
    – jscs
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 1:44
  • My reasoning for delaying even drafts was because, currently, once someone has started a draft, they can successfully submit it up to four hours after the question has been closed. Your suggestion of allowing drafts but simply not displaying them if the question is closed before the lockout expires would amount to the same thing, so I think we're on the same page. Your version would be superior if it's important for people to write their drafts in the answer box rather than in a separate text editor. Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 3:44
  • @TigerhawkT3 - Correct, I think we're on the same page. And I think what's being identified is that FGITW has separate detrimental effects on 1) users who want to post high quality answers, and 2) users who want to curate low-quality content. There's some overlap in terms of how you might mitigate those detrimental effects, but there are also areas where it can make sense for the solution to diverge slightly in order to better-handle each specific case.
    – aroth
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 3:59
  • "Delay the ability to start answering by 10 minutes and you'll just get FGITW on a 10-minute delay." Not if you have a userbase that's capable of closing garbage questions within 10 minutes. But on the other hand, why should they have to put in that effort? At the full scale of Stack Overflow, with as many questions as there are already, it would make more sense to require conscious action to open new questions, which would then start closed. Commented Sep 20, 2023 at 8:55
1

Find a way to collect duplicate questions/answers together, either through an expanding list layout or a straight redirect to the 'best' Q/A pair. Or some hybrid of these two ideas.

For example, user asks a question, question is flagged duplicate, answers from historic duplicates are suggested to user. If user selects given historic answer, merge threads (append recent duplicate to historic duplicate thread).

It could be that a user must decline answers from historic duplicates before new answers can be drafted by live users.

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  • Not a bad idea in itself, but I'd like to point out that a good reason for keeping duplicates (and marked as such) makes it easier to find what you are looking for. Literal duplicates are of no use whatsoever, but those with slightly different terminology or code should be permitted to stay.
    – Jongware
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:27
  • A list of suggested questions already appears when writing a question. In effect, users who go ahead and submit their question are already rejecting these possible duplicates. Unless you're thinking of something more along the lines of a "sandbox" where questions must be approved before they appear to the general userbase? Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:27
  • TigerhawkT3, yes, a sandbox. But rather than approval before the public can see it (too labour intensive + could frustrate users), relegated temporarily to a sandbox if flagged duplicate. Like a nudge to say, do more research, here are some links, if they're no good, carry on. Jongware, I agree but it would still be good to merge them to a degree, at least into a broader category.
    – MHz
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 12:38
  • @TigerhawkT3 "A list of suggested questions already appears when writing a question" - Technically yes, but to be fair the automatic suggestions often miss obvious duplicates and tend to include irrelevant results as often as relevant ones. Its accuracy needs improvement before we can automatically conclude that a user was informed of and deliberately chose to reject possible duplicate questions.
    – aroth
    Commented Nov 25, 2015 at 1:36
  • @aroth yes, ths is why I suggest that the user MUST deliberately reject possible duplicate questions. For example, the user's search comes up negative, so they compose a new question, the meta content of the written question is going to be more illuminating than a search. So a composed question could constitute an advanced search which can be reviewed by the user to ensure that it is indeed not a duplicate question before going on to post. Moderators and other users can then act as yet another screening process to finally decide whether the question is duplicate. Users ID the dupe for points.
    – MHz
    Commented Nov 27, 2015 at 23:25
  • regarding points, in respect to the OP, how to stop fastest gun in the west point farming. Make correctly identifying a duplicate question (and redirecting the user) 'pay out' much higher than writing a unique answer to a duplicate question.
    – MHz
    Commented Nov 27, 2015 at 23:27
0

Make users unable to even start drafts of answers until a question has aged a bit - maybe five or ten minutes.

I think you've got the time delay in the wrong place there. It'd be nice if people start drafting their answers in $EDITOR and then post them after ten minutes, but only if you assume they'll spend the whole ten minutes making the answer make sense. And I think the non-FGITW people will simply not be bothered doing that, making new questions even more of a zerg rush than they are.

If you actually want people to spend a minimum time writing their answer, then that's where the delay should be. Make it so that after you start typing into Your Answer, the Post Your Answer button doesn't become available for five minutes. It would be like the minimum number of characters in the answer, but based on drafting time instead of answer length.

I know very occasionally there are questions where a one-line answer you can write in a few seconds are appropriately, but I'm going to go out on a limb and claim that any answer you spent less than five minutes writing will be improved by spending more time on it.


As an aside, I don't think FGITW is a problem for SO the company, because new-question-stalking is an activity that keen users can do, and they engage with the website more. It means that the majority of questions (the easy ones) get answered incredibly quickly, and increases the number of answers per question. Both of those look good on site metrics.

However, for SO the community I think it is a problem. I don't like the culture it creates, and as you've seen, it rewards behaviours that are detrimental to the site as a whole: posting low-research questions, guessing at answers that might be wrong, and duplicating other answers. It also acts as a big disincentive for non-rep-whore users to look at new questions, which then means the hard and interesting questions don't get seen by the experts who can answer them. This in turn creates a vicious circle: users with hard questions then come to see SO as a site where easy questions get lots of answers but hard questions get none, so they stop asking those questions. For instance, I notice you (OP) haven't asked a question (on main) since May. Looking at the profiles of the answerers on this question, I see that two of us haven't asked questions since the middle of last year.


Finally, I offer my sympathies to you for your shitty moderation experience. Whether it's moderating, reviewing queues, answering questions, editing to clarify, or even just commenting to help other users get or give better answers, sometimes you try to help and it just turns out wrong. We've all been there. Sorry, bro.

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  • "but only if you assume they'll spend the whole ten minutes making the answer make sense." If they don't, surely they could be out-competed by people who do? Commented Sep 20, 2023 at 8:56
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Why not lock answers for edit after they are tagged duplicate, but still allow deletion?

If somebody has something new or insightful they can add it to the original, or add comments

If they happened to have been helpful before the dup was noticed, good for them. If they don't like their answer, they can delete it. How much unique value has been added after a question was tagged as a dup?

It also seems once tagged as duplicate, choosing an answer should be locked, since likely the answer can be found on the original.

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