73

...and what should we do with them?

I'm starting to see questions on the Python tag like:

  • "How do you access a value in a list?" (i.e., how do you use a basic data structure)
  • "How do I call a function?"
  • "How do I call a method?"

These are extremely basic questions about simple language features that should be covered by any tutorial. They're not too broad, because each has a specific, simple answer. If they are duplicates, then I submit it's a waste of community time to moderate them that way. Why should I spend five minutes looking all over the site for a proper dupe target when in 5 minutes there will be 10 answers all saying the same thing?

These questions encourage both help vampires (who are asking them) and repwhores (who are lining up to answer them) and depleting the resources of moderating users who can't do anything about them. Downvoting doesn't do anything because the questions still get a ton of upvoted answers.

So what should we do? This will just get downvoted or closed if I turn this into yet another "We should bring back the minimal understanding" flag, but opening up SO to questions like, "How do I open up a text editor and type?" seems like a bad idea.

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    Frequently, these questions would take longer to type up than it would to google the same. I just don't understand these OPs. A recent example Oct 30, 2015 at 15:45
  • @MorganThrapp I have commented that exact sentiment numerous times. We can throw that in the bin with downvoting as a useless and frustrating exercise here. :P Oct 30, 2015 at 15:47
  • 4
    @MorganThrapp It's often a good way to earn rep. The questions often get some rep, and answers get a ton.
    – Servy
    Oct 30, 2015 at 15:47
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  • 4
    @Matt Yes, but none of those gets at the heart of what I'm asking. All the close reason suggestions have been considered and rejected, which is why I left that to one side. Many people expressed similar frustrations in answers, or said that they downvote/comment. The heart of what I'm saying is that this incentivizes two of the most common "bad" users on SO -- the askers and answerers who don't care about the site or its goals -- and frustrates the ones trying to help. No linked question or answer addresses that, as far as I've seen. Oct 30, 2015 at 15:52
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    This is what happens when people are given incentives for providing crap and disincentivized from removing/discouraging crap.
    – Servy
    Oct 30, 2015 at 15:53
  • 3
    lol, just on Python? I thiink not:( Oct 30, 2015 at 15:53
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    Nothing can be done. Unfortunately, 'harsh' close-reasons, comments etc. are 'condescending, rude and hostile', whereas asking for tuition on basic language syntax and dumping no-effort homework crap is not. Oct 30, 2015 at 15:57
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    I tend to downvote such questions (because of lacking research efforts), and sometimes close as too broad or unclear. Oct 30, 2015 at 16:20
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    If this was instituted it would only take 5 downvotes to close these kinds of questions. Then we're saying "Your question isn't too broad, off-topic or opinion-based, but it also isn't up to the quality standards of Stack Overflow."
    – user4639281
    Oct 30, 2015 at 16:34
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    If I can be bothered (usually not these days) I might write a custom close reason. Otherwise, I simply choose the one that seems to fit best, downvote and move on. If they can't be bothered to spend the slightest effort, I don't see why I should be expected to spend a lot of effort pondering the best fitting close reason. If I think a question should be closed, I vote accordingly. I don't care what those who think that close reasons were "misused" think about how I vote. Trying to be nice to help vampires and the clueless was one of the biggest mistakes SO ever made.
    – Roland
    Oct 30, 2015 at 19:40
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    A couple of suggestions that I've seen mentioned recently: 1). An automatic freeze for 5-10 minutes on questions from low-rep users to give people time to search for dupe targets.
    – PM 2Ring
    Oct 31, 2015 at 4:12
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    2). Give a rep reward to people who find good dupe targets, eg any user can propose a dupe target candidate, and if it's accepted by the majority of dupe-closers they get a finder's fee of 2 points: I figure that finding a good dupe's at least as much work as making an acceptable edit suggestion. However, that scheme doesn't work so well if the question is closed by a Mjölnir-wielder, since it bypasses the democratic process.
    – PM 2Ring
    Oct 31, 2015 at 4:12
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    Maybe you should have mentioned previous questions and how this question differed from them from the get-go, rather than waiting until someone had gone to the effort of looking for related questions. Nov 2, 2015 at 6:37
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    I sometimes really consider downvoting good answers only to discourage from providing such to read-me-manual questions.
    – mikus
    Nov 2, 2015 at 9:36

4 Answers 4

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Are there questions that are too trivial to answer?

No.

Are there questions that are too trivial to answer by Stack Overflow's standards?

Yes. If I Google your problem and get a large number of hits, and a trivial inspection of one of those hits reveals the solution, then your question is too trivial for the site.

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    You're only answering the title and not the question. OK, "your question is too trivial for the site." What do we do with it then? How do we fix the currently perverse incentive structures pertaining to good-faith editors and bad-faith editors. Oct 30, 2015 at 19:07
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    @Two-BitAlchemist My answer is "bring back minimal understanding", and that makes me A Bad Person according to the majority of SO moderators and users. So I didn't feel it was worthwhile to type it out, except now I have, and this is awkward.
    – Ian Kemp
    Oct 30, 2015 at 19:13
  • Hah! Well that's more or less my answer too and the question is about addressing this void. If not, then what. My read of the 'answers' so far is: "Give up, it's hard." Oct 30, 2015 at 19:42
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    The answer is downvote, however since there aren't enough people willing to do so, and more that instead upvote it, it doesn't solve it. If we fixed that, it would also fix this issue. but.... how do we do that..
    – Kevin B
    Oct 30, 2015 at 19:44
  • Can you get a question ban if none of your questions are deleted/closed but you still get many downvotes?
    – Mage Xy
    Oct 30, 2015 at 19:53
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    @NikG: Yes, but it's quite a lot harder to get there. Oct 30, 2015 at 20:23
  • @IanKemp: I get the impression "bring back minimal understanding" is very popular on Meta and the people who do not share that view are labelled as repwhores here.
    – jfs
    Nov 1, 2015 at 15:08
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    @J.F.Sebastian It's popular on Meta, not SO, because the users who actually give a s**t frequent Meta. Unfortunately "be nice" has effectively been codified as The First Law of Stack Overflow with the result that most users prefer being nice to being honest. For me, answering homework questions has nothing to do with rep-whoring, and everything to do with not adding quality content to the site.
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2015 at 8:59
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    @IanKemp: have you seen this? I don't understand what being polite and "assume good faith" have to do with "lack research effort" questions. Could you link to a discussion where "be nice" is interpreted as "add low-quality content to the site"?
    – jfs
    Nov 2, 2015 at 11:00
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    @J.F.Sebastian The close reasons' scope was narrowed due to new user complaints and the resulting perception that SO was becoming "too hostile" to new users. The obvious consequence was that users became reluctant to cast close votes because that could be seen as not "being nice". That was compounded by the fact that the narrower close reasons made it more difficult to close questions. "Be nice" was never interpreted as "add low-quality content", but it was interpreted as "lower the standards for stuff we close", which has the same effect.
    – Ian Kemp
    Nov 2, 2015 at 11:33
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    The link that I've provided says nothing about "new user complaints" and suggests that closing via "minimal understanding" is actually harmful to the site: "Turns out finding drugs that kill cancer isn't hard; lots of things kill cancer. Drugs that find and kill only cancer are considerably harder..."
    – jfs
    Nov 2, 2015 at 12:22
  • What are you supposed to do with a question that would be difficult to locate via Google? This question is so basic that the asker is clearly just learning to program: stackoverflow.com/questions/48269922/… Jan 15, 2018 at 20:40
42

A question that lacks research effort warrants a down vote.

One that is unclear or too broad a close vote.

A trivial question is likely to have been asked already - and thus can be dupe-closed. If it hasn't then it's time to write an answer that could be used as a canonical in future. (It only takes one gold badger to dupehammer a post).

It may seem onerous to hunt-the-dupe, but bear in mind that repeated 'trivial' questions (accruing downvotes too) will mean posting ban as well.

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    "gold badger" :o)
    – jonrsharpe
    Oct 30, 2015 at 17:21
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    It may seem onerous to hunt-the-dupe, but bear in mind that repeated 'trivial' questions (accruing downvotes too) will mean posting ban as well. This assumes that people downvote those questions, and don't upvote them. That's a false assumption.
    – Servy
    Oct 30, 2015 at 17:34
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    Ah, well, then we get back into the classic help-vampire <-> feeder cycle, which is a much broader (and harder) problem.
    – Sobrique
    Oct 30, 2015 at 17:38
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    If only we could some how get more people to downvote. but.... so many people don't have enough rep to downvote, and many of those who do, don't do it.
    – Kevin B
    Oct 30, 2015 at 18:09
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    Does a gold badger seek out a gold mushroom mushroom? Oct 30, 2015 at 19:31
  • 1
    Agh! It's a (fake) gold snake!
    – Serlite
    Oct 30, 2015 at 20:10
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    But do we really want canonicals for the extremely trivial questions (like this recent gem) that people should be consulting proper documentation or tutorials for? I try to be patient with newbies who are so clueless that they don't understand how to find such answers in the docs, but I have my limits. :)
    – PM 2Ring
    Oct 31, 2015 at 4:05
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    (cont) If we provide such answers on SO it will (IMHO) only encourage such people to look for the answers to these basic questions on SO instead of studying properly-structured documentation. And creating an unstructured pool of such answers is a lot more work than creating proper structured documentation.
    – PM 2Ring
    Oct 31, 2015 at 4:06
  • No, "gold badger" is improved version of honey badger - with even thicker skin. :) Nov 1, 2015 at 5:29
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    @PM2Ring Well, let's be fair, SO is often the better source of documentation for most kind of questions. Of course API references do have their place, but SO normally contains (the sum of all the questions) more information about a lot of interfaces than the official documentation. Nov 1, 2015 at 15:39
  • @DavidMulder: Sure, for API questions a linear presentation of information isn't so critical (and may not even be totally achievable). But for learning core language features it's pretty important. If new programmers use SO as a substitute for working through a properly-structured tutorial they may eventually become competent at using various parts of the language but I doubt that they'll develop a good sense of how those parts form a whole.
    – PM 2Ring
    Nov 1, 2015 at 16:57
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    (cont) And I suspect that there's a good chance that they'll simply become cargo-culters, pasting snippets together by trial and error. And when their mess doesn't do what they want, they'll expect us to make it work, as I discussed in this answer.
    – PM 2Ring
    Nov 1, 2015 at 16:57
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    @PM2Ring Yet basic language feature questions in no way provide clear and ready snippets to copy paste that will not be understood. Especially basic question like 'How do you access a value in a list?' is a question that will be entirely understood. It's far easier to google 'access list value java' then search manually through a long 'getting started in Java'-book, yet you learn just as much from each. I am all for a stricter policy against code writing questions, but this is not part of that at all. Nov 1, 2015 at 17:34
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The coming-soon documentation feature should cover such simple questions. I hope we'll have a special flag or some other way to mark questions as already explained in the documentation. Then you won't have to search though a lot of questions because there will be a single and obvious place to search.

1
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    SO already is that what you describe; a single obvious place to search with an actual search function. A search function that often is left forgotten and untouched. I don't see a bright future for the search function of the documentation site, the people who create close/downvotable questions are still going to not see it at all unless they look at it at a very specific angle. (if that rings no bells: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, book 3).
    – Gimby
    Nov 2, 2015 at 16:38
-3

The purpose of answering a trivial question would be to help a newcomer learn.

Many learners just don't know the easiest route to expertise. For some learners, the desire to get an answer to a question from SO is not lazy as much as misguided. Flagging and closing does not reduce the number of people posting such questions and doesn't help a reader with a similar question who lands on the page. Homework ought to teach people to effectively use resources, including SO, tutorials, office hours, and their textbook. Flagging and closing uses a lot of SO member labor. Closing helps learners answer their questions if the closure message communicates how to learn. The best resolution of the beginner's original post, however achieved (human flagging and closing, automated redirection to a crafted answer, ...?) ought to answer two questions: "What's the easiest way to learn this? What's ok to post on Stack Overflow?" Teach them how to learn, aim to have them add human power to SO as their expertise grows, and minimize the noisy disruption to others who are using Stack Overflow.

The best response for the sake of the learner might include these elements,

  • Keyword(s) that describe what they are trying to learn
  • A suggestion that beginners' tutorials are good places to learn rudimentary elements
  • A suggestion on how to find tutorials
  • A link to a tutorial or official docs
  • A suggestion to use the tutorial/documentation's index, search bar, or control-F.

"You are trying to access an element of a list using an index. Tutorials are better than SO for the basics. Try searching for "tutorial Python." I recommend How to Think Like a Computer Scientist. Look through the table of contents for your topic."

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    It appears to me that newcomers don't understand why their bad questions are downvoted. Nov 1, 2015 at 5:52
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    That seems to be a case where "answering" the question in a comment, then closing it, is the right way to do things. An "answer" that is nothing more than "read the tutorial here" is not an answer and should be deleted, however helpful it might be as a comment or forum post or chat message. Nov 1, 2015 at 7:30
  • Nathan, I agree. But the question isn't an SO question. The response can be an answer, a comment, or a message about closure, whatever solves the problem best. The original poster wants an answer. One SO user doesn't want to see the question in the first place. Another SO user wants to help the poster. Another SO user wants rep. Another SO user landed on the page seeking an answer to their own question. Not all the user stories involve someone who cares whether the response is provided by comment, answer, or message. Nov 1, 2015 at 17:28
  • Sure, but if not all user stories care whether the response is given in X way, and some of them do, for reasons that have to do with proper site functioning, priority should be given to the latter. Nov 1, 2015 at 22:09

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