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I recently interacted with a user who answers many questions with links only, with little to no explanation of what the problem was or how to fix it. I commented that the post should include a local explanation and example in addition to links and demonstrated what I meant by editing the post, but it was not well received.

I've also encountered this user a few times. Many of his answers are only code, but he doesn't do anything to explain what the problem was or how the answer solves it. When asked to improve his answers, he said he didn't care.

The users insisted that they didn't agree with the quality guidelines for the site and would instead continue what they were doing, despite feedback. They are active enough that it's not feasible to address all their posts. They are established enough that voting seems ineffective to prevent future behavior. The answers are answers, and not beyond fixing, so naa and vlq flags don't seem appropriate. This is only two examples, but I've observed the behavior regularly while using the site.

It's very frustrating to see this type of behavior; the intended quality of answers on Stack Overflow is not reflected in how these answers are rewarded. How can we effectively communicate to this type of user that they should improve their answers?

19
  • 11
    I can kinda see the user's point of view. But as you say, it's super easy to turn a link-only answer into something that works well on SO
    – Pekka
    Oct 28, 2015 at 21:46
  • 4
    Well, the link only answers typically would be NAA, even if the code only or extremely vague answers aren't.
    – Servy
    Oct 28, 2015 at 21:47
  • 10
    Another gem from the latter, when advised politely of the issue: "So funny how so many users pride themselves in being some sort of authority on this site. Go answer some questions or something."
    – jonrsharpe
    Oct 28, 2015 at 22:19
  • 1
    They are not all that bad. Let us put forward Glenn Randers-Pehrson as a role model! Glenn is co-author of libpng but I would never have guessed by his answers, less he said so explicitly in (only a few of) his answers.
    – Jongware
    Oct 28, 2015 at 22:19
  • 13
    This is not a multi-millionaire that outsources dev jobs and throws money at SE to sucker users into crowd-sourcing the documentation. He doesn't mind answering RTFM questions about his labor of love. Of course he'll point to the FM. God bless him. Oct 28, 2015 at 22:46
  • 3
    @HansPassant I do sort of agree: the questions are basically "I couldn't read the manual", so "read the manual" is a valid answer. It's not a good answer though, and new users doing the same thing would be met with a different response.
    – davidism
    Oct 28, 2015 at 23:05
  • 20
    It is not a good question. The theory that poorly researched questions can produce good answers is a pretty deeply flawed one. One in a thousand, maybe. Google doesn't put up with it anymore either and now lists primary sources higher. Oct 28, 2015 at 23:44
  • 2
    @HansPassant If it's a bad question then a bad answer shouldn't be rewarded. Ideally it wouldn't even be posted, especially from well established users. Oct 29, 2015 at 14:41
  • 4
    For a moment I thought I was looking at a user who had established himself on Stack Overflow through answering photography questions.
    – BoltClock
    Oct 29, 2015 at 14:57
  • 2
    @Super - surely you meant that the question shouldn't be posted? Hmm, you are not. Okay, so we can't answer them and we can't close them, the site just fills up with cr*p that nobody cares about. A winning strategy :( Oct 29, 2015 at 15:05
  • @HansPassant Well the question definitely shouldn't be posted either. Admittedly bad questions don't have a good solution in place but answering them badly is not a solution. Oct 29, 2015 at 15:12
  • @HansPassant: do you have any hard data to support your claim?
    – jfs
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:20
  • 1
    Do you have any hard data to refute the claim? You first, take all the time you need. Oct 29, 2015 at 15:22
  • 2
    Offer them a badge for reading How do I write a good answer?
    – user4039065
    Oct 29, 2015 at 23:50
  • 1
    @jeeped That would be a good idea if SO could check that you actually read stuff ;) How about a pop quiz feature that can net you points and badges, so you have a reason to know the rules. SO Trivial Pursuit.
    – Gimby
    Oct 30, 2015 at 9:41

7 Answers 7

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When people post bad answers there's really not much that can be done besides downvoting them, if they've made it clear that they don't care that the answers are of low quality. Ideally the post ban would help us here, if it weren't for the people upvoting bad answers (or the fact that the post ban really only helps if approximately 100% of the answers are bad, and won't help if 75% of someone's answers are bad).

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    I sort of understand that the answer has to be "do what you can and move on" due to scale, but it's still unfortunate that the tools we have can't adequately maintain the quality we'd like to see.
    – davidism
    Oct 28, 2015 at 21:51
  • 3
    @davidism I mean if you want I can suggest things like "become a mod and abuse your priviages to delete these answers" or "buy SE so you can change the rules as you see fit, become the superadmin, and ban such users" but I imagine answers like that aren't particularly useful, albeit entertaining to fantasize about.
    – Servy
    Oct 28, 2015 at 21:52
  • 1
    @KevinB When you're talking about users with thousands of rep you're simply beyond the point where such actions could meaningfully work. And it doesn't address the problem that too many people upvote these bad answers; no automated system can possibly resolve the problem as long as that is happening.
    – Servy
    Oct 28, 2015 at 21:55
  • 18
    Seems a bit ironic that people complain that this site is too negative, when in fact it's actually too positive.
    – Kevin B
    Oct 28, 2015 at 21:57
  • 15
    If "too many people" are voting up so-called "bad" answers, perhaps that's because they're not so bad. This isn't religion here; the rules are not dogma if moderator action has been ruled out. That leaves voting as the judge. Oct 28, 2015 at 23:56
  • 19
    @MichaelGrant The fact that there are lots of people that want to be spoon fed code that they don't understand so that they can ask an SO question about their next problem 2 hours later rather than actually learning anything doesn't mean that the answers are quality answers. It means lots of people just don't care that the answers are bad.
    – Servy
    Oct 29, 2015 at 0:01
  • 5
    I prefer to think that they simply don't agree with you that the answers are bad. I have less disdain for my fellow SO members I suppose. While I participate more on math than here, there I don't hesitate to down vote or vote to close. But if a question already has several upvotes, I'm going to be very hesitant to do so. Oct 29, 2015 at 1:29
  • 6
    @MichaelGrant: Well, are the upvotes on bad content really from fellow SO members? What does it take to be a fellow SO member? Consider that one can upvote with just 15 rep... And inability to consistently enforce a standard (perhaps due to being swamped by transients who have no clue nor interest in getting it) does not in itself mean that the goal should be abandoned in complete resignation. Oct 29, 2015 at 1:37
  • 3
    No not at all. But that is why downvotes and moderator tools exist. I for one look forward to hitting 10K on Math.SE so I can help shape the forum. I have a longer opinion about why I think this post was OK versus some link to a random blog that might be dead in 6 months. But more importantly I think that the voting process is far more effective at shaping the content in a positive way. We just don't have the patience to let the data do its work sometimes. Oct 29, 2015 at 1:48
  • 7
    @MichaelGrant there are more users who don't understand the desired behavior than there are users who can guide them. Them being the majority doesn't suddenly change what the desired behavior is, but leads to lower quality overall.
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 2:09
  • 1
    Then the SO approach is fatally flawed, and you are on a quixotic quest. I wish you luck. Oct 29, 2015 at 2:11
  • 7
    @MichaelGrant you may be interested in the Eternal September problem. It's been addressed elsewhere on the site and the internet, but preventing it by enforcing quality standards is one of the purposes of the SO model. The issue is that the model breaks down when established users ignore it.
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 2:13
  • 3
    @MichaelGrant also, I don't think the ideal is hopeless. I and others are doing a pretty good job of discouraging the bad and answering the good in the [flask] tag. But that relies on other established users to set good examples as well.
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 2:17
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    @MichaelGrant: I'm a little curious why you appear to be treating voting (of all things!) as the One True Source of All Real Judgment of Value, if carefully reasoned rules and moderator expertise are being discounted. Oct 29, 2015 at 3:25
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    I do personally believe that voting is the most effective tool SO offers to shape the quality of the site, in the aggregate. Moderator powers are second place. Browbeating in comments ranks near the bottom. Where do the rules fit? I'd say near the top, however: rules that are not enforced actively are at best guidelines. They are no more enforceable than highway speed limits: we bust the most egregious offenders, accept a certain amount of rule bending, and adjust the speed limit when warranted. Not on that list is sending nasty notes to everyone who drives 5 miles over. Oct 29, 2015 at 3:45
2

Your question also applies to questions any user may make.

I think in the long term this can only be addressed through consistency in voting. Regardless of who has answered, if is worthy of your downvote then you should downvote it. I also try to flag content as well that is isn't up to scratch. The longer you spend on the site, the more you see what kind of answers are attracting a type of vote and at least for me, that sways my opinion on what is acceptable to post and also shows me what modifications I can give to my answers to make them more appealing.


As an aside, a possible solution to the problem.

Allow us to vote on whether a user would benefit from reading the [ask] page (or similar). If a user manages to accrue N number of these votes over their last X posts then they are asked to click and read (scroll to the bottom) of that page before they are allowed to post again. If they continue to post bad content, they only need to accrue N - 1 number of votes before they need to repeat the process.

Example: User gets 10 votes on their last 3 posts. Reads doc, still posts bad content and gets another 9 votes has to read doc again. (so forth for 8-7-6...)

Eventually this should get annoying enough that they actually do read the doc and improve their quality.

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If it's a link-only answer, comment to improve it and flag it as NAA (not an answer) and then move on. If the user gets rude in the comments, flag the comment for rudeness/abusiveness and move on. People unwilling to learn are not worth spending time on trying to change.

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  • It's too bad that this is the general opinion I'm seeing. It's true, but it doesn't improve anything. Do you really think there's nothing more we can do, either with the tools we have or with something we don't have yet?
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 13:53
  • @davidism There's always more than we can do, but is it worth it? As I see it, the "marginal utility", so to speak, of the dot's answer was in balance (it was adequate but more effort is wasted time). There is a world outside SO where one can find beauty, too ;-). Oct 29, 2015 at 15:40
  • 1
    @PeterSchneider the issue is that there are plenty of people, me and many of us here included, who seem to be able to write an answer that both links to a source and provides explanation and example, and I don't think we're all as tied to our desks as some comments imply. I agree that dealing with it with the current tools is not worth it, but that's the whole point of the discussion: how can we make it better?
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:48
-8

Create a real bounty option for posts. A user posts his/her problem and puts a bounty on it for what he/she's willing to pay someone to answer the question. Whatever the best answer is that solves his/her problem gets selected. That will filter out the lazy responses and more importantly the schmucks who answer with useless or negative responses which drive people away from asking questions. I would pay $1 for a good answer to a problem I have. It would help fund SO as well as keep the guys around who know wth they're doing and motivate them to provide quality answers.

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    Ehm, even the pure rep-bounties we have often lead to a feeding frenzy. Add some money, and you'll get real desperation. Anyway, this FR has already ben thoroughly dissected. See for example meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/251576/… Oct 31, 2015 at 16:20
-10

I sympathize a lot with bigreddot. The world does not revolve around SO. A question whose answer is "RTFM" is adequately answered by pointing to TFM, even if the SO guidelines disagree; thanks to the dot for the effort to answer at all.

The bare, harsh links convey also a meta message besides the links proper, namely "RTFM". That message will be comprehensible longer than the particular links will work; the concrete problem described in the question can easily be solved by googling the changed links, so that the normal "but what if the links break? The answer will be useless!" simply does not apply. The answer will arguably be more useful with broken links because it forces the OP and his epigones to google for manuals. There seems to be an increasing demand for that art. Practising it cannot hurt.

And then, if anybody feels like catering to people who cannot google they can still flesh out the answer. Alternatively they can close the question.

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    Agreed, except that bigreddot should be posting a single link in a comment, and then should vote to close the question as a request for off-site resources. The single link in the comment should point to a page that has a list of resources, i.e. links to "project examples, the project tutorials, the project docs, the project mailing list, and the project issue tracker." Oct 29, 2015 at 15:17
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    @user3386109: A question whose answer is RTFM is not itself a request for off-site resources. Maybe if the question itself were "where in TFM can I find X", but even that is incredibly contrived and could very easily be reworded into something that's on-topic.
    – BoltClock
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:21
  • @user3386109 True, a comment would be an alternative, perhaps a better one if it's just one or two links. Oct 29, 2015 at 15:21
  • 1
    @BoltClock Fair enough, no need to VTC, let somebody else answer if they want. bigreddot should limit his response to a comment with a link to a resource page. Oct 29, 2015 at 15:27
  • I think I gave the wrong impression with my example. I wasn't calling out "using SO to offer support", which is fine, I was calling out "unwillingness to provide the quality that's expected on the site". I also wasn't judging the quality of the questions. I've seen this happen unrelated to product support and unrelated to the question quality.
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:41
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    I stated to agree to use only comments in the future (three times now).
    – bigreddot
    Oct 29, 2015 at 17:09
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    @bigreddot Lol. Awesome. Headline: Quality disaster on SO narrowly averted. Phew. Oct 29, 2015 at 17:42
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    I am afraid I cannot interpret the tone of this.
    – bigreddot
    Oct 29, 2015 at 17:55
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    @bigreddot I was being sarcastic. Too much energy has been spent on the issue. Whether your original answer stays as only links or includes an inline example doesn't matter at all in my opinion. Oct 29, 2015 at 19:46
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    How does this answer get down votes? Peter displays both logic and common sense.
    – Confused
    Oct 30, 2015 at 0:22
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    The point you're missing is that those that come to find an answer long after the question was asked probably did find it from googling the question so they are already searching for the answer. They found that answer on SO? Great! Being a signpost would only lead these users to other QA sites. It is so easy to write "From the [docs for x](link) do this [explanation of what it means]"
    – Sayse
    Oct 30, 2015 at 7:28
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    @Sayse You mean no spoon feeding would lead users asking low-quality questions to other sites? We should do less spoon feeding then, not more. I think that has been a kind of consensus lately anyway. Oct 30, 2015 at 8:22
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    @PeterSchneider - How do you know they would be low quality? Its not spoonfeeding to answer a good question with a good answer. If it is a bad question then you shouldn't be answering it anyway, possibly voting to close as a dupe
    – Sayse
    Oct 30, 2015 at 8:27
  • @Confused Why do people downvote? First, a downvote here is different from downvotes on other SE sites. It is rather a vote regarding a suggestion than a quality assessment. Second, I learned that a majority simply thinks that providing self-sufficient answers is the way to go, and I of course see the point and I'm not really against it; I rather think it shouldn't be followed too compulsively. I also felt that it was unnecessary to demand of the dot to change his ways, and unfair to "complain" about him. davidism edited that "complaint" aspect mostly out, so the discussion was productive. Oct 30, 2015 at 8:34
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    There's nothing I'd like more than post link-only RTFM answers. I'd be doing it all day. But the consensus is it's not how SO works.
    – Pekka
    Oct 30, 2015 at 14:18
-12

Your presumption of "educating" indicates to me that do not understand the economic concept of misaligned incentives. You are evidently laboring under the misapprehension that SO is welcomed by all OSS developers, or that it necessarily does them some kind of service that they should feel obliged to appreciate. Let me disabuse you of that notion: it doesn't.

In this particular case (as is very often the case), the question is already well-addressed in the project examples, in the project tutorials, in the project docs, on the project mailing list, and has been discussed in the project issue tracker. Many people have put effort into maintaining these resources. But now, because a for-profit company thinks it is entitled to a monopoly on people's attention, it diverts people away from OSS communities, and creates yet another place that has to be checked, monitored, evaluated, dealt with. Does SO expect thanks for increasing OSS developer's maintenance burdens? You know, because we're not already busy and overworked as it is?

I am interested in helping our users. But more to the point: I am interested in meta-helping our users understand that the project community resources are in fact almost always the best place to turn to first. Consider it "teach a person to fish" help. From my point of view, an answer that directs people to effectively utilize the official project resources is, in fact, the best answer possible.

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    I've purged all the comments here, if you still want to discuss (i.e. argue) about this, then please take it to chat. It was getting far too noisy under this answer.
    – Taryn
    Oct 29, 2015 at 14:29
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    I want to apologize for calling you out more severely than I should have. I was trying to make a point about a type of answer, not about you, and some of your answers just happened to be an example of what I wanted to discuss. Many of your other answers are well explained, so keep up that good work, it's appreciated.
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 16:36
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    I appreciate and accept your apology.
    – bigreddot
    Oct 29, 2015 at 17:09
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    That this has 19 down votes is the problem.
    – Confused
    Oct 30, 2015 at 0:24
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    @Confused It actually had 50 downvotes. Its currently sitting at -18 with [+32 / -50]
    – Magisch
    Oct 30, 2015 at 7:40
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    @Confused: it depends why people downvoted this, and we cannot know. Perhaps they disagree with the content, but have not said why. Perhaps - no disrespect to the poster intended - they found it hostile.
    – halfer
    Oct 30, 2015 at 8:10
  • What happens when the documentation becomes temporarily available (I use Haskell, and Hackage goes down for hours at a time) or is firewalled off? A simple link to the docs is not helpful. For basic RTFM questions, quote an excerpt from the documentation and provide a link and call it a day. You and I both know what you really mean is "you should have searched a little harder" *wink*.
    – cimmanon
    Oct 31, 2015 at 16:27
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    Apart from the fact that we build our docs continuously and I know our docs server has seen less than five minutes of downtime in the last ~3 years, this is still a complete red herring. What happens when the excerpt goes out of date because an API changes, or a new better way to do something is added? That is much harder to detect and maintain. If the answer is in the docs, a person should be shunted to the docs. In addition, this is an interactive plotting library. Excerpts of minimal value when real plots can't be embedded (like the docs have) because SO scrubs JavaScript.
    – bigreddot
    Oct 31, 2015 at 22:26
-13

How about a win-win scenario?

Not all projects have a viable support system, and for those Stack Overflow can provide a crowd-sourced Q&A environment that relieves the burden of support for developers.

This project, on the other hand, apparently has such an environment outside of Stack Overflow. That's Great!

To meet the goal of helping users focus their search for help and answers on the project's resources, then, I propose that a good, on-topic, canonical answer be written on Stack Overflow. Once. This answer would not need to duplicate the documentation, only act as a guidepost to the relevant off-site resources.

All RTFM & Show-me-an-example type questions can then be duplicated to the canonical answer. Users choosing to post question on SO will get useful help, the developers & contributing community & moderators are provided an effective way to deal with the questions without reducing quality standards. Further users will find questions that are closed / duplicated to the canonical answer, and hopefully have their behaviour modified, further reducing the flow of low-quality questions.

The tag wiki & summary could echo the request to utilize existing support channels first.

What should be left, then, would be a community-support channel on SO, for users to help other users without burdening project developers, focused solely on application topics outside the scope of the project documentation.

Will it work in all cases? We would be naïve to think so. But it should be better than what is happening now.

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    Users are expected to do their research before asking questions on SO. If quality answers to their questions are readily accessible through the documentation, then they shouldn't be asking the questions on SO. Users are not just expected to search SO before asking. Duplicating the documentation, even once, is not productive.
    – Servy
    Oct 29, 2015 at 14:52
  • Are you suggesting a canonical question/answer for all RTFM questions? or one for each case?
    – Kevin B
    Oct 29, 2015 at 14:53
  • 1
    @KevinB ONE. Period.
    – Mogsdad
    Oct 29, 2015 at 14:56
  • In that case that question wouldn't be an appropriate SO question, and all of the other RTFM questions wouldn't actually be duplicates of it.
    – Servy
    Oct 29, 2015 at 14:56
  • @Servy - if they did that, these questions wouldn't exist, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But enough are lazy. If they're just going to search here, then why not make it easier to get them to the off-site resource?
    – Mogsdad
    Oct 29, 2015 at 14:57
  • 2
    Isn't this why they started the whole SO Documentation thing?
    – BoltClock
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:00
  • @Servy "and all of the other RTFM questions wouldn't actually be duplicates of it." I see this a little different from the canonical "how to debug error" answers - the questions aren't duplicates, but the answer is the same.
    – Mogsdad
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:00
  • 1
    @BoltClock No, that was to deal with products that have zero, or complete crap, documentation. It was explicitly discussed in the proposal that it wouldn't be there to just duplicate quality documentation. Since this product (apparently) has quality documentation, it wouldn't be something that would need to utilize SO's documentation feature.
    – Servy
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:03
  • 2
    @Mogsdad There's a big difference between closing "I'm getting error Foo" as a duplicate of, "Here's how you fix error Foo" and closing, "I'm getting error Foo" as a duplicate of, "Here's how you RTFM when you have any error".
    – Servy
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:05
  • @Servy Not necessarily: "to determine the source of errors, follow the steps documented 'here'. If the error persists, ask for help in the community at 'somewhere else'.
    – Mogsdad
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:35
  • @Mogsdad So then you do want to have an SO question for each different type of problem, rather than one SO question for every single RTFM question, contrary to your earlier comment. In that case, see my first comment.
    – Servy
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:37
  • I think I gave the wrong impression with my example. I wasn't calling out "using SO to offer support", which is fine, I was calling out "unwillingness to provide the quality that's expected on the site". I also wasn't judging the quality of the questions. I've seen this happen unrelated to product support and unrelated to the question quality.
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:42
  • 1
    Your suggestion is interesting, "If we can't prevent questions that result in links to the docs as answers, provide a standard way to inform them about the docs" would reduce the specific case, but it wouldn't really prevent the general issue, and goes against the common standards on the site.
    – davidism
    Oct 29, 2015 at 15:45
  • "Users are expected to do their research before asking questions on SO." Users do what they will, you will never change this. It's not something you will ever have control over, as much as you might like to. In particular, SO's business model depends on a steady stream of new and inexperienced users. Given this, no amount of downvoting of RTFM questions will stop new ones from appearing, because there will always be new users who haven't experienced a knuckle-rapping. I submit that the entire premise here is flawed and that the best response to RTFM questions is a pointer to TFM.
    – bigreddot
    Oct 29, 2015 at 17:17

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