98

I recently came across a high reputation-points user (10k~) with lots of answers (and very good ones!) who has some formatting preferences when posting:

  • He just puts all the information
  • in unlimited amount
  • of bullets in the answer
  • making the post itself
  • quite hard to follow
  • while you are reading it.

Looking around most of his/hers around 750 answers are formatted that way.

NOTE: slightly NSFW (There are even images in bulletpoints!)

What are the guidelines for this unorthodox post formatting? I personally find it very distracting, making the posts very hard to read and understand. Discussing with some colleagues, I've seen that I am definitely not the only one finding this distracting.

My worry: The user writes quite good posts, but being this complicated to follow, I feel like they do not contribute to the "knowledge base" of Stack Overflow very well, because getting information from them is just hard.

Question:

  • Are there guidelines to say "This formatting is bad, this formatting is good"?

  • In case there is some bad formatting happening, should someone notify the user to communicate that maybe they didn't make the best choice of formatting style?

  • Last but not least: Am I (and my colleagues) some formatting fanatics, and we should not be worrying about this?


Important edit: I have nothing specific about the quality of the content of answers of the user him/herself. I actually believe that the quality of the content of most answers is very good, and that with better formatting, the user would get way more upvotes!

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    * Wow, that's pretty annoying. Maybe they're just not fluent enough in English to form full sentences. Obligatory "+1 to any answer to this question that uses bullet points".
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 13:20
  • 4
    - @CodeCaster: Maybe. Though I prefer hyphens for bullet-points. Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 13:23
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    @CodeCaster You think so? I mean, if you take out the bulletpoints and form sentences with the text, its quite readable.stackoverflow.com/questions/3407942/… Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 13:24
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    I once got in an argument with someone who used excessive bold formatting in their answers. I since try to ignore strange/annoying post formatting and move on, because the chance of the OP agreeing with changing the formatting is small.
    – user247702
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 13:26
  • 2
    I'm personally ok with about 50% of the bullets in the comment-linked post. The first paragraph really overuses them as periods. That's really distracting. But the other areas use stuff like "first spectrum, second spectrum" and the bullets help a bit.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 13:26
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    @ryanyuyu I am not saying "DELETE ALL THE BULLETS". But too many bullets is just as distracting (or more) than to few bullets IMHO. Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 13:27
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    I would be incredibly frustrated if I came across one of this user's posts during a search. The answers seem very good, but they are a huge chore to read. If I came across such a post, I would edit it to save everyone else the same pain.
    – davidism
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 15:33
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    @theB apologize, I should have noted that in the post. Edited. Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 15:59
  • 9
    I'm wondering how that answer hasn't gotten either deleted or heavily edited. If we have to mark it as NSFW (even slightly), is it really appropriate for SO?
    – Becuzz
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 16:24
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    I look forward to seeing a response from the user to this.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 16:53
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    @BoltClock I hope the user does not take it wrongly. I wish all SO users where as hard working as this one is for answering. Its just the formating. Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 17:04
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    @DarwinAllen almost everyone cares, since this user contributed quite a lot of knowledge to this site, but it is not being read now due to the formatting. It's like writing a library full of books but keeping them in your own house. Thanks for writing, but no-body reads it.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 17:35
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    @Darwin thanks for pointing out exactly what the question is. I mentioned 3 times in the post that his answers are very good quality. The problem is that the quality is hard to see. Better formating will benefit everyone, specially the user itself Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 18:01
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    Perhaps it is over-application of Six simple tips to get reputation fast on any Stack Exchange site... Or this answer. Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 18:10
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    @m69 like these :)
    – Spektre
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 13:55

6 Answers 6

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Are there guidelines to say "This formatting is bad, this formatting is good?".

I don't know of any SO guidelines beyond the basic standard of "it has to be readable." The only standard I know of is that code should be formatted as code.

In case there is some bad formatting happening, should someone notify the user to communicate that maybe they didn't make the best choice of formatting style?

Yes. Feel free to comment or even edit the post yourself. If the OP doesn't agree, they can reject/rollback your formatting. Just don't get into an edit war. Once your formatting edit is rolled back, just stop there and write off the formatting as a difference of opinion.

Last but not least: Am I (and my colleagues) some formatting Nazis and we should not be worrying about this?

You should be (mildly) worried about this. If you find it hard to read, chances are that others do too. So you could do everyone a favor and try to fix the problems as you see them. However, you should not go out of your way to fix these problems serially, especially if you are under 2k reputation and the suggested edits need to be reviewed.

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    Based on personal experience, apparently quotes have to be formatted as quotes. Putting them in italics is insufficient.
    – BSMP
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 14:22
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    "The only standard I know of is that code should be formatted as code." and its inverse, "things that are not code should not be formatted as code." in case that wasn't clear ;)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 16:55
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    @BoltClock fmt.Println("Instructions unclear, formatting non-code code comment as non-code-formatted code")
    – Air
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 21:25
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    And that quote formatting should be used for quotes, and not for text that isn't quoted. Surely?
    – user207421
    Commented Oct 8, 2015 at 23:30
144

Hi everyone and thanks for the input (do not worry, I am not offended by constructive critique...this is the second time I got a negative response to my bullets. The first time was just a single comment (may be a year ago)) from a low-rep user, but this is overwhelming so I have to take it into account as the right way for this site) ... as you may guessed I am the One in question ...

From the start, some reasons for my formatting behavior (introspection):

  1. It takes me a long time to get familiar with Markdown, and I still have low skills with it so I got a few bad habits along the way as you can see in my answers. It is not just bullets, but also in-line coding due to sometimes buggy code formating tools many times discussed here on Meta, very often made edits while posting a new answer (I make a lot of typos, and the rest is usually due to Markdown formatting hides some information like intervals and so on) which I usually spot too late.

  2. The half stripped sentences are not only for my lack of English skills, but mainly because my mind works in this way. So the bullets are like my native representation of information and knowledge. That is the main reason for this. I think my mind take it as more visually pleasing than raw text, because it is easier for me to get information from it. If you see my answers the most bullets there are either steps to achieve the goal or a list of properties...

So under the weight of the overwhelming response from the community I like so much I promise to limit the use of bullets in the future. But have patience with me; I am slow dis-learner of bad habits...

I just got deleted the answer on the image-to-ASCII art conversion linked in the @AnderBiguri OP (it got +10 votes in single day most likely due to this post) which is the third time. I think the question on this topic with my answer got deleted/removed always from lack of attention from the OP side (no specifics, or at least information on trial/error). So I will try to write Q/A on this topic as a raw model with the limited use of bullets, then will post a link to it here so you can comment me there or here with improvement/changes proposal so I can learn how to rewrite what my mind have in mind to a form more suited for this site.

[edit1] the Q&A

OK, here is the bulleted original (removed) answer

And here is the new one, Image to ASCII Art conversion in C++... Finally finished editing It.

[edit2]

another heavy (de)bulleted example of mine I just reedited before and after Just have to post it :)

[Notes]

As you can see, I did not use the bullets this time so this is probably as hard to read for me as the bullets for you.

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    I am very happy to read you don't take this personally, as you are a valuable and proficient contributor to Stack Overflow. The very last thing we want is to scare you away! I happen to agree with Corbin's answer in that, while a post should be understandable (and yours are, no problem there), there is no need to write an extremely formalized text, and there is still plenty of room for 'personal quirks'. As a non-native English speaker, I know I have plenty of those – and I don't really care.
    – Jongware
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:08
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    So are you going to switch from bullets to numbers now? :-) Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:09
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    @Jongware: I still don't understand what being a native or non-native English speaker has to do with any of this. Sounds like a diversionary excuse, to me! Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:09
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    @Spektre: +1 :) On the upside for you, the more you write like this, the more comfortable with it you will become! We've all got to learn somehow, right? :) Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:10
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    @Lightness: well my experience is that usually somewhere along the line it gets suggested it's lack of the Queen's that leads to 'bad' (-ly received) posts.
    – Jongware
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:11
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    @Jongware: But that's entirely orthogonal to personal formatting quirks. Grammar/spelling != formatting. A few times I've had people come to me and say "sorry I didn't properly indent the code block in my question, but English is not my native language" and I'm like ... what?! :P Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:12
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    @Lightness: in that phrase, I am the non-native speaker. My point is at times I'm aware of using malapropisms or otherwise butchering English – and I don't really care, as long as I can get my point across. I imagine the same goes for perfect speakers whose only oddity is to think in bullet points.
    – Jongware
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:22
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    So, I just edited one of your answers, as a suggestion how it could be done. I'd suggest having a look at it, to see if the information in it is still correct, though.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:27
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    @Jongware I think that anyone who uses the word 'malapropism' can no longer use the excuse that English is not their native language. I'm willing to be that your English skills are head and shoulders above 80% of my fellow Englishmen!
    – DavidG
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:31
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    "malapropism"? What? *Googles* Ooooh, that makes scents.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:42
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    Hey. I am incredibly happy you taken this positively, and you must know that I really admire the effort you put into answering questions, I wish everyone was like you! I really think that if you'd limit a bit your bulletpoints you will be way more rewarded! But! dont take me wrong! If your brain works better with bulletpoints, do not eliminate them from your posts! It is good to see schematic answers with tidy ideas, they are very helpful! Thus, I'd say, limit a bit those bulletpoints, but do not eliminate them from your answers totally if they help you think! Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:59
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    I will accept the other answer as the good one, because it actually answers the questions I asked, but I am glad you did answer here and I would give you a meta-bounty if it existed! Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 10:22
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    PS.. if one's work involves image algorithms then (historically) one is bound to see playmate en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna (and her later friends) pop up somewhere (including highly professional papers). In such a context I find it hard to call that NSFW.
    – GitaarLAB
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 17:30
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit Writing documents (even SO posts) in a non-native language increases cognitive load. This means that everything is harder, and paying attention to yet another issue (proper code formatting) becomes more difficult. "I'm sorry I didn't format my code properly, I was hanging upside down above a shark tank and entering the post by holding the smart phone with one foot and typing with my other toe". Sure, nothing in particular about that situation excuses poor code formatting... Commented Oct 8, 2015 at 19:40
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    RE the edits: I wish you could see yourself just how amazingly smooth those answers read now :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 24, 2015 at 15:09
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Before you get too bent out of shape over formatting, read Jaron Lanier's DIGITAL MAOISM: The Hazards of the New Online Collectivism. An over-simplified, partial summary:

Over time, collective endeavors become less and less tolerant of idiosyncrasies and anything that feels like an individual versus the collective. Everything starts to sound the same. Ideas that are a little "out there" disappear. Original authorship is lost as participants edit to the norm or authors edit themselves before they post.


Collective taste evolves for good reasons. It has benefits. For one, normalized text is easier to read. Your question and the other answers are absolutely right about that. There are other good reasons to normalize as well.

What I think we ignore is that collective, normalized tastes also have a cost -- cost and benefit. A major cost is that interesting (but weird) voices are lost. Weird authors stop contributing after they're scolded or they edit themselves into a different author. The collective morphs weird output into something less weird and less interesting.

I'm not crazy about that. I like that you sound like you and I sound like me and Spektre sounds like Spektre. Maybe it would help if we view what we're doing differently. Instead of Stack Overflow strictly as the internet's technical documentation (boring), maybe it can be the internet's technical documentation with bits of embedded art (interesting). That's how I view Spektre's contributions, as unintentional art. The answers I've sampled are lush with details, contain great demonstrations, and are straight-up weird with bullets. I love it. They're a mystery. Why the bullets? They're never boring.

That's not to say that everything outside the norm is interesting. I hope we all use our votes to indicate when something is wrong, mean-spirited, or impenetrable. But, I also hope we stay open to people who think and communicate differently than us. Let's slow down with the collective rules that demand contributions be just so.

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    I actually like the way you see this Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 23:57
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    I like your view too, but I think the community is right this time if the majority have problems to extract information from my kind of formatting then I should change it because sharing information is the main reason for this site if it would be anything else like styling,fonts, phrases set... it would be another matter
    – Spektre
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 7:58
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    It is not art, it is obnoxious. If that user wants to fill the internet with bullet points, let them start their own blog. You have more than enough creative freedom on SE with text; don't abuse formatting. Edit: I now have read the accused user's response, my comment (in response to your answer) still stands.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Oct 7, 2015 at 8:22
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    I respect your opinion that, "It is not art, is is obnoxious." I hope I can rely on your respect for my opinion. We don't have to agree. It makes for a richer community. Commented Oct 8, 2015 at 0:31
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    Your answer reminds me of Ishmael by Daniel Quinn - cuz there is no one "right" way. My opinion: If someone's style is too far from the norm to be accepted en masse, then the masses don't have to use the information and they can write their own answers. Individualism is not all important, but neither is conformity.
    – Reed
    Commented Oct 8, 2015 at 19:47
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    There is plenty of room for individualism while still complying with community standards. Not that SO is the best place to express oneself artistically, but even there: some of the most artistic, creative works are authored within severe constraints. It is the ability to express oneself individualistically within those constraints that proves the mastery of the art! Commented Oct 8, 2015 at 23:43
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That specific example is indeed horrible. Proper English sentences, numbered sequences for subsequent steps to take, bullets or hyphens for unordered lists, would make this answer much more readable.

There is a reason that we developed these grammatical/spelling conventions: they help interpret the text. This style breaks these conventions, and therefore make the answers harder to read.

Suggested action: edit the text. Quite a job in that specific example (because you really would have to 'get' where numbered lists are best etc).

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    Yeah, but he has 700> answers in that format. It takes me less time to learn machine learning, code an algorithm to delete bulletpoints when needed and form sentences with the remaining test and trow it to SO than actually editing that amount of posts. Plus, being this the choice of the user, he/she could always rollback the edits, as it seems it his/hers prefered formating style. Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 13:32
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    Yes, you risk the chance of getting disputes over rollbacks. But if the current question leads to a consensus you can reference this. A consensus here might also mean that others start editing. The whole workings of SO depend on "You are not alone".
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 13:44
  • Unless you're requesting a feature addition/modification ahem ;) Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 20:44
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    Don't go edit every post a user created. The best option is to change their mind not their past content.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 23:04
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    I think it's too late to educate this person - i.e., it would be quite unfair to gang up and edit all of those posts at this point. However, if I spot a new user pulling this off I'd (1) definitely edit it out, (2) name that edit "removed unnecessary fluff", and (3) suggest to the poster not to unnecessarily bullet or enumerate things.
    – Jongware
    Commented Oct 6, 2015 at 23:17
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  • l
  • o
  • l

Here I thought it would be like one, or two bullet points. But no, it was dozens per post. Grammar has met its match.

There are no words.

Except to say that if you can use a ridiculous amount of bullet points and still pull off getting a significant amount of upvotes the content you are providing must be pretty impressive. While some of the bulletpoint points are list-ish in nature there is also a good mix of real content to that users posts.

That is their style apparently. If it works for them, I do not think others should edit the lists out of their posts. I would also not recommend doing that on your own posts as it makes it rather hard to read at times.

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There are many reasons for using bullet points. For instance:

  • Listing things
  • Highlighting something in text as very important
  • Steps to take
  • Explanation of many points
  • and so on

However, in the case of the author of this post,

  • he probably is used
  • to hitting Shift
  • and Enter
  • which actually places
  • the cursor inside
  • a new bullet point
  • causing this exact mannerism.

Or, perhaps, he just believes it makes it easier to read. We're all different.

In either case, I believe the formatting is bad. If this was a recent post, I would edit the post and place in the comments box “fixed formatting; clearer explanation” or something to that effect.

As for his previous 700+ answers, I wouldn't touch them unless they're really bad. If anything, it would be best to leave them as-is as examples to future generations of SO users as what not to do. Any sane person reading those should think something along the lines of “Wow, that's annoying” which should, in turn, enforce that they should not do that.

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