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I have observed that there are a lot of ninja responders when a new question was asked by a user. The given answers there are of very poor quality and often very general.

The procedure is always the same. The responder tries as quickly as possible to give an (short) answer without looking at the post quality. The intention is to potentially be the first person whose answer will be accepted (or the first attention is paid on) only to gain maximum reputation. However, shortly afterwards, this response is then modified several times, so that this answer will not be voted down or is replaced by a better response from another person.

This approach has several drawbacks for the whole community I think. It discourages a potential responder to make the work to write a detailed response, as these after they have written the detailed answer, just one of many who have given more or less the same answer, but just with the disadvantage that their response hardly will find attention by others. It seems to be so that the rating for answers which once were up-voted, are rarely changed again even if there are answers with better quality (my subjective opinion).

My idea would be now to punish these people who behave as described, since their main intention seems to be the mere attainment of reputation.

How could this punishment looks like and how detect such behavior?

I think this is not easy. One idea would be to detect if a given answer has been modified n times right after composing it. Another idea would be to detect if the answer has been modified much right after composing either by detecting size change more than half for example.

Ideas for punishment would be:

  1. Don't allow up-voting for n hours
  2. Don't allow to be accepted for n hours
  3. Responder will only gain half the reputation for "accepted" or "up-voted"
  4. Responder will not gain any reputation for this answer
  5. To be discussed...

This punishment system should prevent exploiting the reputation system and help to improve answers.

I'm open for any ideas, may be I'm wrong with my observation?

This proposal may be a bit related to this post Proposal for an approval system for questions

I've also found myself in this behavior, I would not want to just point the finger at others.

Should this question be closed?

I think it does not only discuss the quality of answers as article Is it all right to flag very new answer as 'very low quality'? does, but it should be a point for discussion if this behavior is a problem or if we should support or tolerate such behavior, and if not what we could do to stop it. It has some relations with Placeholder Answers: Will update with answer soon!, but there no punishment system is suggested.

There are mostly helpful comments, and one commenter has a remarkable solution which addresses one side of the problem (preventing others from answering questions). Answers should not be visible within first N minutes. This however doesn't solve the problem of ninja responders.

Another solution I could imagine is to encourage more users to downvote answers. My idea would be to allow edits, but make these edits visible only after 15 minutes (maybe longer the time each time a modification was made), so that others are able to judge the initial quality of the answer.

Another question is, should we tolerate this FGITW behavior? If this would be real life you would be pissed off! Imagine: you are sending your car for repair to a car service station. One hour after repair you will get your car returned and have to pay certain amount of money. But right after you drove home you'll notice that the car has still some issues. You will send the car to the car service station again and again. Would you like to tolerate this? It also ends up in a repaired car, but it took a long time for it.

This algorithm of course need to be transparent; no invisible line that are suddenly crossed. I could imagine something like a warning "If you edit this post within 5 minutes you are not eligible for reputation in the next 30 minutes" or so.

The real big question here is: Do we want to change anything or do we all participate in this game? Like politicians raising their financial compensation for themselves.

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    xkcd.com/810 Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 14:53
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    Does it need to be punished? how do we identify offenders? I certainly edit my posts several times after initially posting, but i never post poor quality content with the intent of being first or gaining more rep.. I have plenty. (though, i guess then me being "punished" wouldn't matter to me.)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 14:53
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    So you are trying to solve the fastest gun in the west problem? If you see people doing this, just downvote them. Then their initial post will have to work ever harder to make it into the spotlight they desire for reputation.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 14:53
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    If there's one thing I love more than volunteering my time to help people, it's volunteering my time to help people and be punished.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 14:56
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    I agree that you are describing a real problem, but this is not the solution. A simpler one is that answers are hidden for the first N minutes after a question is posted. This gives people time to write a good answer, then they all get shown at once.
    – thecoshman
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 14:58
  • @Shog9 Don't understand me wrong, I agree with you that well elaborated and written answers should not be punished, but I'm talking about those people as hinted by "ryanyuy" ( fastest gun in the west problem?). Theire main intention is not to help people, but only to gain reputation.
    – bkausbk
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:01
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    So downvote these unhelpful answers, @bkausbk. That's what the button is there for.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:05
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    @bkasubk those users will only gain reputation if the community decides they're helping the OP / others. I'm not going to upvote/accept an answer which doesn't contribute.
    – CubeJockey
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:06
  • @Shog9 The Problem is, these answers are often even not unhelpful at all, at least after several "modification sessions". But as you have written in your answer "since very few people keep lists of posts to vote on later" most people will accept or up-vote the first best answer they encounter. Even that it seems that many people will rather up-vote an already up-voted answer than an answer with no votes, at least if they are not noticeable better.
    – bkausbk
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:10
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    If the answer ends up being helpful, then... Where's the harm here? This Q&A tends to hang around for many hours (usually months and years...) after being written; whatever happens in the first few minutes, it's what ends up solving problems long-term that matters.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:30
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    I think the real solution to your problem is to stop worrying about Stack Overflow as a "game" that can be "won". The gamfication adds some element of fun and reward to participation in the site, but the end result is to provide answers to programming questions. If the question is answered and the answer is of good quality in its final state, who cares how it got there? Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 16:28
  • Many thanks for those participating in this discussion, I'll accept your decision for closing, however I would have preferred if more people would have had the opportunity to participate in it since I do not agree with the reason of the closure itself.
    – bkausbk
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 16:41
  • I think the kind of answering behavior you're describing is the best way to answer questions. You get there fast, and then you take it slow. Haven't you ever heard The Beach Boys?
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 18:39
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    Fastest Gun in the West and Slowest Cheater in the East are all old known problems. Beyond (trying to) collect reputation crumbs, it do not have great effect on the system. Good answer will always have its reward.
    – Mp0int
    Commented Sep 16, 2015 at 8:43

1 Answer 1

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First off, punishment tends to be a pretty crappy motivator in general; in the specific case of folks looking to game the system, you must also expect them to game any punishment schemes you implement. Which will often leave you "punishing" the wrong person...

  1. Don't allow up-voting for n hours

Sucks for everyone who spends 10-30 minutes writing a solid answer & then doesn't get any feedback. Expect a sharp increase in worthless "+1: can't upvote yet!" comments and a sharp decrease in actual upvotes, since very few people keep lists of posts to vote on later. So, punishing everyone.

  1. Don't allow to be accepted for n hours

This already exists; it's like 15 minutes or something though, and already frustrating for pretty much the same reason as #1. Punishing all answerers.

  1. Responder will only gain half the reputation for "accepted" or "up-voted"

So... Everyone gets less rep if they edit. Punishments all around!

  1. Responder will not gain any reputation for this answer

Expect lots of stupid errors that never get fixed. Punish the world!

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  • Not "modification" of the answer it self should be punished, but the "first write an answer and then modifying several times within 5 minutes or so".
    – bkausbk
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:05
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    This is ridiculously common, @bkausbk - it's so common that we don't even bother tracking it outside of temporary logs. Everyone makes mistakes; good writers fix them. Experienced writers fix them quickly.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:06
  • @bkausbk I often forget to link docs I intended to link in an answer, or post and then think "OH CRAP, there's this I can add". I never play the FGITW game (don't really care enough about rep to play games to get it)... so if I forget my link, edit it in, then think about something else, edit it in, I get punished? Side note : the tags I visit are not extremely active, so there is usually ONLY one answer, making mine the "first one"
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:08
  • @Patrice Ok, it seems that detecting this behavior only by looking at short time edits after answering may not help - at least it should not the only hint. But what about a detection on how much of an answer posting had changed since last time edit? Either by looking at posting size or even the content. There are loose hashing algorithms used in email spam detection. (Only 2 ideas)
    – bkausbk
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:15
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    My primary issue with this is I don't see FGITW as a real problem. Yes, it's a pain in the ass for other answerers who aren't as fast, but... questions are getting answered. If the answer is poor quality, downvote it, but otherwise these users are actually helping the site, not hurting it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:17
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    @KevinB In my opionion down voting is too harsh in most cases. I'll down vote everything that's completely wrong or absolutely don't fits as answer, but down voting poor or not so well elaborated answers? There must be something in between down voting and ignoring at all.
    – bkausbk
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:21
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    @bkausbk "There must be something in between down voting and ignoring" --Like commenting on the answer requesting edits for clarity / post improvement?
    – CubeJockey
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:23
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    Just downvote it, Downvotes indicate poor quality, if it is poor quality, it should be downvoted.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:24
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    All of your proposed solutions are more harsh than a downvote (or even several downvotes) @bkausbk. They're also considerably less focused; when you downvote an answer, you're saying "this specific answer is unhelpful" - there's no secret algorithm indiscriminately punishing people who cross an unmarked line.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 15:27
  • @Shog9 Not all my solutions will lower reputation as down voting will definitely do! Punishment does not necessarily means lowering reputation. It should only be a kind of "conditioning" to learn the correct behavior.
    – bkausbk
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 16:24
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    @bkausbk all of your solutions limit voting on the post. While not deducting rep, it certainly results is lower reputation earned from a post. So yes, they are much more harsh than a single downvote. Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 16:26
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    @bkausbk no it isn't, but it's irrealistic to think that people will keep on giving answers if we remove the points.... especially for stuff that sometimes will be debatable (did he REALLY do all these edits because he created a FGITW answer, or is it that the OP changes his question and the answer changes in sync?). I don't game the system, but if I had an answer that could NEVER produce points, I wouldn't necessarily be happy about it either
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 16:31
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    @bkausbk never said that. You said downvoting was too harsh. I was trying to explain Shog's point in my own words that your solutions are much more harsh than a single downvote. Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 16:31
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    Even without reputation, folks still like knowing that their work has helped others, @bkausbk. Post scores, reputation, accept marks... Are all just ways of keeping track of that.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 16:42
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    It has its own tag because we've been debating this for literally 7 years now and it helps to have some sort of shorthand...
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 17:37

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