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Disclaimer:

  1. English is not my first language.

  2. I work part time as a teacher, trying to teach Python to a class of physically challenged people. I am far from being an experienced teacher.

So a few hours ago I made the following search through Google:

Python blind programmer indentation

The 2nd search result was, not surprisingly, a Stack Overflow post:

Is there a way to convert indentation in Python code to braces?

And the chosen, most upvoted answer was not only perfectly fine, but it was also very helpful.

But the 2nd most upvoted answer has, in my imperfect, perhaps even ignorant view, some serious issues. Excerpts bellow:

Python supports braces for defining code blocks, and it also supports using 'begin' and 'end' tags.

...

The best thing about this is is that you can forget to put a close bracket in, and it's still valid python!

Which, in other context, could be funny (maybe as an answer to another OP, one that is not blind himself).

And then it concludes with

My real advice is to get a Braille display if you can afford one/source one.

So basically this is an answer that starts with a "joke" (or, in other words, a lie) and concludes with a recommendation that is completely unfeasible to most of the world, or at least to the part of the world where I live in (just to make it clear: I am not blind, I do have a job, and I cannot afford such kind of electronic device [$3,500 to $15,000!!!]; the students I am talking about are both blind and unemployed).

So, yes, I find it somewhat offensive. Not terribly offensive, I agree; but offensive enough to make me feel awkward to reference that link to my students or employers.

I tried to place a comment on that answer, but it was deleted. Also, my insistence made another comment be deleted as well (which I regret; probably I should not have written anything).

OTOH, making fun of Satan is considered harmful.

So, sorry, I don't get it.

Of course, maybe that's because I am biased:

  1. I really don't care about what is said about any mythological entities;
  2. I don't feel offended with sexual references;
  3. I don't think it's useful to say that real, actual blind people should spend around US$ 9,000.00 if they want to program Python.
  4. I don't find that Python gag particularly funny. Sorry.

Those assumptions seems to be false to you guys (whoever you are), so maybe I'm the wrong one here.

And I'm mean it - of course I could be wrong. Please let me know if I am misunderstanding, misquoting, exaggerating or even complaining too much.

Thanks in advance.

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    If you honestly found that answer offensive, then I wish you luck with the rest of the internet. Jokes are jokes. Don't try to take them too seriously.
    – Mysticial
    Sep 10, 2015 at 4:43
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    How do you go from "unfeasible" to "offensive" with no middle steps? If you ask me "How do I make sure my steak's perfectly cooked?" and I say "Best thing to use is this $800 immersion circulator", that's offensive now if all you've got is an electric grill?
    – jscs
    Sep 10, 2015 at 5:06
  • 4
    For clarity: the linked "making fun of Satan" post is not about making fun of Satan (which [almost] no one cares about); it's making fun of someone else using a vulgar reference to Satan. That's a big difference. Sep 10, 2015 at 5:44
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    I can't even imagine what a pain in the ass it must be to debug code without being able to see it. Especially on larger files...
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 10, 2015 at 6:24
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    Why is this offensive? He's being realistic.... Since this site is for both professional and enthusiasts, I can imagine a professional blind coder who would actually benefit from buying the suggested tool, or requesting his boss buys it. Honestly, not knowing who the user is, this is actually a very valid response. Your particular situation just means that this answer isn't applicable to you.
    – Patrice
    Sep 10, 2015 at 13:29
  • @Patrice my "particular situation" is the situation shared by most people in the world. The fact that you consider it so "particular" says more about you than it says about me.
    – rsenna
    Sep 19, 2016 at 21:42
  • @rsenna says anything about me? I really think you have the "offense" switch too close... Genuinely, you need a thicker skin here. Was it a bad answer? Yup, 100%. bigoted? You need to calm down a bit my friend. Yes it's unfeasible to buy that tool (God knows I wouldn't have that money either). Is it insulting someone suggests to buy it? No.
    – Patrice
    Sep 20, 2016 at 12:04
  • Oh and where did I say your particular situation isn't the norm? Particular there was more about "your perspective" than any intent to signify you are unique or out of the norm. My point still stands: this site is visited by pros, who could potentially use the tool. Not useful to you (or me,or most of your students)? Then downvote. NO need to jump on a high horse and get offended for an innocent(if useless) suggestion
    – Patrice
    Sep 20, 2016 at 12:47
  • @Patrice you seem more offended than I was, and so I'm sorry. Still, "particular" could mean special (in my view at least, I may be wrong), and that's how I perceived your statement to mean that it was't the "norm".
    – rsenna
    Sep 21, 2016 at 18:09

3 Answers 3

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That answer may be insensitive, but it also appears to be making a sincere effort to be helpful - that said, it clearly isn't helpful to you nor was it accepted by the asker of that question. That's ok; Stack Overflow allows multiple answers precisely because different people may find different solutions to the same problem useful in their specific situation.

As to who defines the limits of bigotry, offensive content, etc... You do. I do. We all do. If you feel that something you read crosses a line, flag it and/or bring it up here for discussion (as you did). Through combined flagging or constructive discussion, a consensus will usually become apparent, though in especially controversial cases, the elected moderators may need to intervene to settle the matter. This has happened at least once in the past in regards to the answer you reference.

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I know that answer was based on a joke, but in this context I don't think the author was trying to be funny. It's actually half an answer to:

I was wondering if there were any tools available that would allow me to write code using braces or some other code block delimiter and then convert that format into a properly indented representation that the Python interpreter could use?

All you really need is something to convert that format to properly indented Python, which doesn't sound like much of an obstacle. Since it's probably a sincere attempt at a solution, I don't see anything offensive here.

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    I honestly spent a good long time reviewing this answer to see if I could figure out what was offensive about it. I've talked with a couple of blind developers, had one come and talk about screen readers and accessibility in a class I taught, and I was puzzled by how recommending a good Braille display was insulting in any way. It's not a great suggestion, given what I've seen of modern input and screen reading technologies, but it seems to be given in good faith. I'm no Python developer, so if that was a joke, I missed it, but it didn't seem to demean anyone from what I could understand.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Sep 10, 2015 at 16:23
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    @BradLarson Meaningful indentation is one of the things that sets Python apart from other languages, so the suggestion of using #{ ... #} block delimiters is just something you would not do. That's pretty much the whole joke. Once you shift your perspective, though, that joke turns into kind of a neat idea. Even if it was posted half-jokingly, I seriously doubt there was any malicious intent behind it. Sep 10, 2015 at 17:26
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    @BradLarson: To someone who lives in, say, India (where, based on a random chart I just Googled up, IT salaries are about 10% of those in the US), is still a student (and so not yet actually employed) and has limited job prospects due to their disability, advising them to spend what may be several years' gross income on a Braille display probably comes across as a "let them eat cake" remark. It may have been well intended, but even if so, the whole post IMO shows a remarkable lack of tact and perspective. Sep 10, 2015 at 22:04
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    @IlmariKaronen Exactly. I confess I this is the first time, after so much time, that I actually checked the answers for my question. And I'm kind of impressed (even if not surprised) by the general lack of empathy, of conscience of how fortunate most people here on SO are. I'm not a leftist (far from that), but it should be obvious, even to the most conservative fellow, that to the majority of people in this world (and, yes, also, to most programmers) $3,500,00 is an absurd amount of money. Yours is the only statement here that seems to acknowledge that, and so I thank you.
    – rsenna
    Sep 19, 2016 at 21:36
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So basically this is an answer that starts with a "joke" (or, in other words, a lie) and concludes with a recommendation that is completely unfeasible to most of the world...

It sounds like you're offended in a, "this answer appears to make light of the problem before dismissing it with a suggestion to spend a ridiculous amount of money" sort of way and not a, "this answer appears to be mocking/insulting blind people" way.

But it's the latter that the site is talking about when it says bigotry will not be tolerated.

As an example, let's say an SE site has a question about improving the health of kids living near/below poverty. (Put aside that this is way too broad as worded.) Someone leaves an answer that's just, "Eat less, exercise more". It's flippant, not useful, assumes that "improve health" = "loose weight", and ignores everything from food deserts to unsafe neighborhoods. It would be fair to say that it's so bad, it's offensively bad but it's not bigoted.

Someone else leaves an answer that says, "You shouldn't bother helping those people. They are beneath us and a drain on our resources. The quicker the dregs of society die off, the better." This would be an offensive post that would be considered bigoted because it sets a specific group, in this case the poor, as being inherently inferior to others.

This isn't to say that a response can't be both flippant and bigoted and not all bigoted comments will be as obvious as my example but hopefully that's enough to explain the difference.

All that said, I didn't understand the joke either.

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    The joke is that the suggested "delimiters" look like they are syntactically significant, but are actually just comments, so there's no checking that they are properly placed or balanced or anything, making them useless. It's interesting to note, though, that the accepted answer points out a tool that does make sure that the pseudo-delimiters are balanced.
    – jscs
    Sep 10, 2015 at 17:07

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