28

More and more frequently I see :- where : would be appropriate. From the English subsite, Is it proper to use a colon followed immediately by a hyphen?:

The colon [is] never preceded by a white space; it is always followed by a single white space in normal use, and it is never, never, never followed by a hyphen or a dash — in spite of what you might have been taught in school.

This seems to be prevalent among Indian users of English.

As we don't change spelling from British English to American English or vice versa, is it appropriate to edit posts to remove the hyphen from :- (as part of a larger edit)?

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  • 31
    To me it doesn't feel like it would justify an edit on its own. Seems innocuous enough. As part of a bigger edit, though, why not...
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 9:50
  • 41
    It is a failed smiley attempt :-)
    – rene
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 9:51
  • 7
    I am an Indian and we don't use :-, some people must have used it. But generalizing it as "Indian style" is not correct. If you want to edit, go ahead.
    – Satpal
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 10:46
  • 3
    @Satpal I'm not saying every Indian user uses it, but the opposite: every time I see it used, the user's profile says they're from India. I don't know why that is. I have edited the title.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 10:48
  • 7
    @rene Maybe it's a (successful) Wilson smiley. Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 14:54
  • 4
    You also see lots of instances of using just a hyphen and no colon, like _ this code is not working -_ followed by a block of code. Often you see this from new users where the overall question quality is also bad. And then of course there are French users that are used to have a space in front of the colon, which is normal for them but looks weird to most other users of the latin alphabet.
    – simbabque
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 8:44
  • 3
    I can't recall having seen :- around here before. Although I don't think I would edit a post just to fix a single character like that, :- is definitely wrong and I will be sure to correct it whenever feasible. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 8:51
  • @TigerhawkT3 ironically, I just saw a comment here on Meta with :-.
    – Léo Lam
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 14:44
  • 4
    No, it surely is wrong to change :- or :- to : (the list constructor) :-)
    – Bergi
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:32
  • 1
    Whatever you do, don't automate it, please. :- is an "arrow" operator in a number of programming languages (including most logic-oriented ones).
    – mikołak
    Commented Aug 1, 2015 at 21:34
  • 1
    @mikołak And in the ca65 assembler, :- refers to the previous anonymous label. Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 3:33

3 Answers 3

32

If it's part of a larger edit, it's clearly an acceptable change.

Even if we assume it may be acceptable according to many, it's presumably also wrong according to many, so, to quote a relevant part of the British / American English thread you mentioned:

Edits to change things to ... should be ... unless they are part of wider edits to make improvements to the post. In that case it's probably not worth getting worked up over it.

What about an edit just for that (if there's nothing else wrong)?

The English site thread has evidence going either way, so I guess just fixing that should be discouraged (despite what I think of it).

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  • 1
    Well, it's not an error. It can be found in (old) English books. I saw it used on the Deed of a house I used to own. According to the link it is used in highly legalistic documents where absolute meaning is important. All that can be by-the-by. Before considering changing it, I think you'd need to find out what the author intended by it (unless it is clearly identical to :). Only if the usages are broadly equivalent could it be reasonably changed. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 8:18
  • 2
    @BillWoodger: It may be theoretically possible that the user put it in there on purpose for stylistic reasons. But since very few native speakers are even aware of this possibility, it would have to be blindingly obvious from the rest of the post that the user is extremely fluent. This is never the case, and indeed it is always the case in my experience that there are multiple other perfectly obvious, perfectly simple errors strewn about the post, making it harder or more obnoxious to read. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 23:24
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy Having not seen this myself, I guess I should wander around in some of your tags. The age of the thing, to English-speakers, and given the British Empire, it would not surprise me to find countries where its use is taught. What that use taught is could be significant (unlikely). But "be nice" can hardly include telling someone the way that they learned how to do it is "obnoxious", even if only implicitly by editing it. I'm reasonably tough, but was surprised at my own reaction one time when someone changed by spelling to "American". Commented Aug 1, 2015 at 9:05
  • @BillWoodger Wouldn't the "be nice" argument also hold for clear spelling or grammar errors, which we have no problem fixing? Commented Aug 1, 2015 at 18:14
  • I don't see why. I've never been concerned about something I've typoed which someone spots and fixes. When someone changes something I've deliberately written, it's different. OK, there do seem to be people who insist on odd things like no caps at all who get annoyed at fixes, but that is also different from having something "fixed" which you've learned when young and used all your life. Commented Aug 1, 2015 at 20:18
  • @BillWoodger: This eyesore is characteristic. Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 3:08
  • @NathanTuggy Well, that user is "affecting" it, clearly, and not just the ":-". Whilst the lower-case niggles, the weird punctuation I can easily ignore. I have sampled and not found a single edit on my sample, let alone edits for the punctuation. It is clear that editing the punctuation would be simple and produce valid output. User angst would be fake, as they have already one question (at least) in full plain text, capital I's and all. I have to say I'd reject such an edit, as "no improvement", at the very least on short ones. Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 9:28
  • @NathanTuggy I would, and may, contact the user. They are easily able to write "good English" and if someone sent me a business missive like that I'd have a word with them. Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 9:31
-7

It's clearly not an acceptable change.

While there is certainly an opinion, as per the single extract you quoted from the EL&U answer, that such punctuation is incorrect. However, even the answer you took that quote from indicates that there are other opinions.

I'd personally agree that dog's bollocks is out of date. (The answer, and its source, is not strictly correct when it says "the OED calls this mark the dog’s bollocks"; Eric Partridge's A dictionary of slang and unconventional English calls the mark that, and the OED records that use). If we had a style-guide that we all had to adhere to, I would certainly say the style-guide should forbid it.

But we don't have a style-guide.

You say yourself that it is in use in Indian English. It's also used in some legal contexts in Britain, Ireland, and many commonwealth countries with a knock-on effect of making it very common in the personal styles of lawyers and others who spend a relatively large amount of time reading legal documents and legislation.

And as such, it's still quite clearly current English.

You may dislike it, I may agree, but its still correct English punctuation, in as much as "correct English punctuation" can be reasonably defined, and changing it is just changing something from the author's personal style to your own.

6
  • I disagree. I think it is an acceptable edit. Maybe not very useful (borderline superfluous if not part of a larger edit) but certainly acceptable. Changing from one "correct" form to another correct form is fine.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:43
  • 2
    @ryanyuyu it's just busywork, that wastes the authors time by notifying them of edits that turn out to have just been busywork rather than anything either useful ("oh hurrah, my post is better") or damaging ("better revert this nonsense").
    – Jon Hanna
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:45
  • 5
    It's only busywork if it's not part of a larger edit. And even then, it's still "acceptable" (it's not vandalism or conflicting with the intent of the post) but only frowned upon.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:50
  • 2
    I'm afraid I asked the question wrong then, and should have started at a lower point, like "Is :- recognized as valid english interpunction?" or something like that. I don't agree with your "clearly", otherwise I wouldn't have to ask the question. Anyway we never hesitate to edit just as not to bother OP with a notification.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:55
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    My clearly is mainly to outline my disagreement with Dukeling's answer. We don't hesitate to edit just not to bother OP with notifications, but we do intend for edits to actually improve things.
    – Jon Hanna
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 16:13
  • 1
    @ryanyuyu: "Changing from one "correct" form to another correct form is fine" Nah it's not Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 2:05
-18

The most popular answer there effectively answers this too, if I paraphrase it

If there is any doubt over the terminology then changing it is acceptable, but in this case ":-" should be understandable to everyone.

It's not actively hard to understand, just unfamiliar. Edits should be about clarity and improving communication, not conforming to a uniform style.

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  • 6
    I'm having a hard time getting used to it. Every time I encounter it,- it looks like OP made a typo.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 9:55
  • @CodeCaster That's understandable, but discomfort isn't the same as ambiguity and unclear posting. They likely have to adjust when seeing our naked colons too. Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 9:57
  • 16
    From When should I edit posts?: "To fix grammar and spelling mistakes". The usage of :- is neither British nor American English. Neither is for example whitespace before puntuation (foo , bar .), and we edit that out too.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 10:03
  • @CodeCaster That seems odd to me, it goes against caring largely about understanding, I didn't think particular style mattered as long as it wasn't obtrusive. Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 10:24
  • 6
    What is wrong with fixing spelling and grammar in a post? Every one of such edits improves the readability and sets a good example, especially for non-native speakers (like me).
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 10:25
  • @CodeCaster But it's correct for Indian English as your link shows, it communicates an actual difference and means something to those speakers. On the other hand it introduces no ambiquity or confusion in other variants of English, it just looks odd. It's technically incorrect but has no actual downside so I wouldn't really say it's fixing anything. Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 10:29
  • 7
    "Edits should be about clarity and improving communication, not conforming to a uniform style." -- Conforming to a uniform style improves clarity and improves communication.
    – GEOCHET
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 13:47
  • 1
    @GEOCHET But that's not how colour vs. color is treated even though it's largely the same distinction. Changing from colour to color (or vice versa) isn't seen as worth it unless a post changes back and forth or it's actually relevant. Unless British and American English are the only officially acceptable forms of English it seems inconsistent to enforce this. Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 13:50
  • 1
    How does that have anything to do with what I said?
    – GEOCHET
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 15:24
  • 19
    @SuperBiasedMan both colour and color are correct English. One is American English and the other is British English. ':-' is not correct English. It may be acceptable in a specific dialect of English, but it is not correct. Edits to correct grammatical errors are definitely useful. What if someone claimed that in their culture only lower case letters were used, would this then mean that we couldn't correct capitalization?
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 30, 2015 at 16:16
  • "It's not actively hard to understand, just unfamiliar" To you Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 2:05
  • Problem is, though, I have a hard time figuring out what honest-to-God "Indian English" actually is, as distinct from simply "bad English". Do we count all posts lacking punctuation, capital letters or any sort of general coherence? Or only those posts that use the otherwise-archaic "the same" and the corrupted "hit and trial"? Where is the line drawn? I've not seen many posts that fit quality requirements but actually differ enough from Western English dialects to count as a dialect on their own. That's why this whole "don't be snooty about Indian English" movement bothers me. Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 2:08
  • 2
    @TinyGiant :- does not exist in English-the-spoken-language. It is only in the spoken language that we can make claims like "such-and-such construction is objectively correct [according to the native speakers of this variety of the language]". In written English, which is the only place that :- exists, there is no objectively correct way of using punctuation (since English does not have an academy). Some stylists permit :-, while others do not, and that's all there is to it. It is something of an overstep to claim that :- is "not correct English".
    – senshin
    Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 2:55
  • 2
    @TinyGiant I should add: while some varieties of English spoken in India are certainly pidgins with the local language, the prestige variety that most people mean when they talk about "Indian English" with no qualifiers is a proper language, not a pidgin.
    – senshin
    Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 2:58
  • 1
    @TinyGiant: Who decides what a pidgin of English is? From my POV your "Canadian English" is a pidgin language. I'm all for accepting different dialects but if we're now going to say that only non-pidgin English is acceptable then that means the language spoken in England. Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 14:06

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