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Most of the time, especially with new questions. If the question is obviously off topic it gets close voted quickly, but it also gets heavily downvoted.

It's obvious these downvotes are going to deter the asker from ever wanting to improve their question - as let's face it, who sticks around to wait for a question to be improved so they can remove their downvote?

I think we would get a better result if we preventing downvotinq on questions, at least for a short period of time. That way the close votes could still take effect, and then the OP has a chance to improve the question and re-open it without having to worry about the bad rep.

I accept there are likely to still be a lot of new users that will never bother to edit off-topics, but there is definitely a good chance that we could save a lot of questions with good potential by reserving our downvoting.

Not to mention the amount of new users that never come back from having such a bad experience. I think people are more likely to be accepting of close vote rules, than they are with the hostile attitude that downvotes imply.

Alternatively, we could all make a pact to try and hold off on downvotes until OPs have a chance to address the issues?

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  • 15
    Would you also apply the same restrictions/standards to upvotes?
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:21
  • If I recall correctly, you can self delete an answer, e̶d̶i̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶o̶p̶e̶n̶ edit it offsite, reopen and edit it with the new content. I've done that with answers I've posted in the past that are an issue. It stops the downvotes, and I can fix it. Plus, when they edit it allows us to reverse the downvote if we see fit.
    – DeadChex
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:23
  • 2
    @DeadChex: you cannot edit a self-deleted question. You can of course edit the text somewhere else, then undelete and quickly paste in the new version.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:23
  • @ryanyuyu: No as it is not really an issue, upvotes don't scare users away. Though is might help with the voting rings issue (but lets not debate that here)
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:26
  • @DeadChex: The damage is done too quickly. A new user wouldn't be able to work out how to do that in time. the reality a lot of questions that are off topic get closed almost instantly, and are heavily downvoted at the same time. What user (new or low-rep) is going to be motivated to improve their question. Likely just delete and re-ask, or get annoyed and come back 6 months later to create a new account
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:28
  • 1
    Likely just delete and re-ask doesn't that solve the issue? The downvotes are removed, and they get a chance to fix the post and start fresh. Of course, that requires them to actually improve it between postings, but if one close wasn't enough, I don't think they'll fix the question either way
    – DeadChex
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:29
  • 6
    I would be happy to follow this advice if the posters of the 'new questions' agreed to actually read and agree to accept the site rules and recommendations before posting their hostile, inconsiderate, annoying 'does not work' walls of code with no comments, single-letter var names, no inputs, no outputs, no error-messages and no debugging done. Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:31
  • 4
    Off-topic questions don't always get closed quickly enough. A quick closure would prevent excessive downvotes typically. But in order to attract closers, most questions require a visible indicator (such as: a few downvotes).
    – mario
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:31
  • @DeadChex: It's not really a good habit to try and get people. And on second thoughts, it's more like the re-ask without deleting, and people complain about it being a dupe of one they asked already (so even if it's improved, it gets downvotes because OP didn't fix their first attempt). I can't provide examples at this time, but I see it a lot, and I know I can't be the only one here that know it happens
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:32
  • see also: Aggressive down-voting
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:49
  • @gnat: Thanks, I will vote to close it as a dupe too. No point in carrying on the debate anyway, it's obvious how people feel about it
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:51
  • 2
    We may aswell have a 'vote to delete user' feature if we are all going to have no faith in someones ability to reform. New user posts a bad question, then delete the user. Less unwanted crap to maintain and we can all be happy with our superior questioning skills
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:53
  • 8
    We may aswell have a 'vote to delete user' feature - that's not a bad idea... Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:56
  • 4
    Can we trial the 'delete user' feature? ;) Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 16:12
  • 4
    @musefan You don't have to hate someone to downvote them. It's also not a sin to inform someone when they've done something wrong instead of refusing to provide valid feedback on their contributions.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 16:14

2 Answers 2

14

Alternatively, we could all make a pact to try and hold off on downvotes until OPs have a chance to address the issues?

One issue here is that many never address the issues. I've went back to questions that I commented on hours, even days, after myself and others commented on how to fix the issue. And, yes, sometimes I have held off on the downvotes thinking, "Ok, if they can explain this a little better then it wouldn't deserve a downvote". So, if I hold off on the downvote and the OP never addresses the comments (or at least not in a sensible amount of time) then their question gets off the hook and doesn't appear so bad as far as votes are concerned.

While I understand what you are trying to do and it would be nice to find a way, I don't think this is it. I think it is more the job of new users to understand how the site works than it is for us to cater to someone who joins, throws down a terrible question, and leaves because they didn't read the Help center and look at some quality questions to know what is acceptable.

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  • What happens to closed question with no answers? Do they get auto-deleted or anything like that?
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:29
  • I believe they get deleted eventually if they don't have a positive score.
    – codeMagic
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:31
  • "The system will automatically delete closed ... [with] zero or negative score having no upvoted or accepted answers or pending reopen votes, that were closed 9 or more days ago and haven't been edited in the past 9 days."
    – DeadChex
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:32
  • stackoverflow.com/questions/31609109/… Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:32
  • 6
    Sadly, most new posters don't want to improve or address any issues, they just WANT MY QUESTION ANSWERED NOW!'. Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:33
  • So if they get deleted then no need to worry about if you downvoted or not. But I guess the rule would have to be in place to prevent upvotes too then
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:36
  • 3
    @musefan there still are reasons to dv even if they will eventually get deleted. I don't know the timeframe for deletion but Servy's answer explains a little better why they are good. Also, they may not be deleted or, worse, attract terrible answers that will clutter the site.
    – codeMagic
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:39
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It is upvotes that deters people from editing posts. If a post is getting upvotes then a user has no incentive to try to fix any of the problems with the post. If the post is being downvoted then that is not only a strong signal that there is something wrong that they need to fix, but it's incentivising them to fix it sooner rather than later so that it will stop attracting more downvotes. If people can't continue to downvote it then they have no incentive to fix it, to prevent further downvotes.

On top of that, preventing downvotes prevents others from providing information on the quality of the post, making it harder for users looking at the question to determine if it's worth their time, it prevents those votes from feeding the question ban algorithm, it can prevent the post from being automatically deleted, make it take much longer to be automatically deleted, or prevent manual deletion, in the event that the post isn't improved in time (or if it's not salvageable at all) depending on what the current score is.

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  • Sometimes questions can get 10+ downvotes before the OP has likely even had a chance to notice them and understand what is going on. Especially a new user who won't understand the system. The reality is I have been here long enough to know that SO doesn't care if a new user has a bad experience or not, and I am definitely a part of dishing out the downvotes too. But we refuse to enforce any sort of 'crash course' before allowing users to post so how can we expect them to not treat us like every other support site/forum on the internet. How are they to know we are supposed to be different?
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:44
  • 5
    @musefan If a post is getting that many downvotes that quickly, then in my experiences, the post is completely unsalvegable, will soon be deleted, and there wouldn't be any hope of the OP improving the question, even if downvotes would be prevented. Worse still, if preventing downvotes would have prevented the post from getting quickly deleted everyone would likely be worse off. There are lots of processes in place to help new users understand what is expected of them, and to help them see that SO isn't like other sites. The vast majority simply disregard this information.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 15:55
  • @musefan "I have been here long enough to know that SO doesn't care if a new user has a bad experience or not," maybe I haven't been here long enough but I strongly disagree. SO, in general, does care if SO and its policies are the reason. Maybe not as much so if the reason for the bad experience is their reluctance to take advice, read the help center, and improve their efforts. But not much can be done about that. Of course, there are users who are rotten to new users and we try to handle those issues as well.
    – codeMagic
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 16:04
  • @codeMagic: Indeed, I am sure all us 'long-term-ers' have good intentions, but lets just not be deluded into thinking SO doesn't give off a hostile vibe to newbies
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 16:13
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    @musefan SO tends to come off as hostile for those users providing extremely low quality contributions. It tends to come of as extremely helpful and useful to those who actually provide content of value. I'm totally okay with that. Having participated in sites that try to do everything they possibly can to accommodate new users, at the (great) expense of the quality of the content, I can say that everyone is better off (even the help vampires) when the quality of the content is the highest priority.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 16:17
  • @Servy: I agree, I don't think we should stop with out quality standards. SO is a great resource because of that very reason, But I do think we lose a lot of people that could be saved if we changed some of our habits. Of course, the problem as always is identifying what the best solution for that is, and apparently this particular suggestion of mine is not it
    – musefan
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 16:20
  • One thing you might have might have forgotten: Downvotes are also signal to the post ban; prevent them, and we get more low quality posts from the same sources. Orrrrrr I just suck at reading posts fully. Either or.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 22:00

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