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When Stack Overflow first came about SEO was worse, and disk space was more expensive. The result was a large set of rules about the nature of SO questions as not to pollute the search space with silly questions nor incur SO additional resource costs.

I believe this time has passed and more leniency ought to be allowed for asking questions. Over the years I have found it harder and harder to post a question on SO without someone coming along and saying "you haven't done enough research, you are a lazy person, you haven't written a mathematical proof that you have tried all possible code, show us some code that does not work before asking for working code".

Of course "broad" or "ambiguous" posts are not suitable for SO - SO is a place for requesting facts not requesting opinions.

The kinds of questions I see get shot down all the time are genuine requests for help from some programming noob, or a genuine request for some code, because asking for code is seen as doing the programmers job for them. The asker is viewed as being too lazy. Now I don't really care, so what, no need to close their question, just ignore it!

Remember how the vast majority of the planet actually uses Stack Overflow.

  1. Write a quite specific coding question into Google, plus the word "stackoverflow"
  2. Find a question that is identical to your question
  3. Learn exactly the piece of information you wanted in two minutes without learning anything else unnecessarily

Most people don't want to read an entire book on language X to learn how to do a simple thing. They want to learn what they need, as and when they need it - this then ensures they remember it better. This in my mind is what Stack Overflow helps with, and every time a question is closed it hurts the global community while leaving that question open would never have harmed a fly.

I guess my question is, how can I go about requesting that the "you must prove that you have spent 1000 hours in pain before asking a question, and write an apologetic essay for every question" rule is removed from SO and that a helpful culture is encouraged, not one of ancient pedants.

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    I find it interesting that in the span of a few hours we have people arguing that Stack Overflow has a problem with closing too many questions, and closing too few questions.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Jul 15, 2015 at 15:50
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    You think the site's quality standards are to preserve disk space?!
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 15, 2015 at 15:51
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    @jonrsharpe: Hey, servers aren't free, you know.
    – BoltClock
    Jul 15, 2015 at 15:53
  • 8
    @BoltClock this is true, and it's possible the OP doesn't know that all of those deleted questions are kept anyway!
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 15, 2015 at 15:53
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    Actually, I do have a problem with a legacy C app. There are 38 .C and .H files and some other things. The bug is not intermittent and so should be fairly easy to find, but I can't be bothered doing it myself because the Vice-Bishops are on at the club tonite. I need my answer by tomorrow, please, Jul 15, 2015 at 15:55
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    You do realise that your argument is internally inconsistent, right? Having lots of garbage questions around makes it harder for "the vast majority of the planet" to "Find a question that is identical to [their] question". Closing duplicates, for example, means that the appropriate knowledge gets concentrated to the canonical posts, making it easier to get the information.
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 15, 2015 at 15:57
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    @samthebest please read meta.stackoverflow.com/q/261592/3001761. This isn't a code-writing or tutorial service, and I for one want it to stay that way. Remember that "we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming", helping lazy idiots is just a side effect.
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 15, 2015 at 16:02
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    I think I'm going to be a pedant then...all of those have been suggested in one form or another before. The downvote/comment thing has been done to death. (Seriously...search either MSO or MSE and you'll find countless highly downvoted feature requests)
    – Andy Mod
    Jul 15, 2015 at 16:08
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    @samthebest well, good luck with that. "require down-voting is impossible without a comment" has been given a somewhat... frosty reception on innumerable previous questions. "increase the close vote from 5 to 10" will just bung up what's already the longest review queue, so you'd have to bring a much stronger case than "lazy idiots are professionals and enthusiasts too". "overhauling the features and points system" is so broad as to be pointless.
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 15, 2015 at 16:09
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    @samthebest you keep using the word "pedantic" and, at the admitted risk of pedantry, I do not think it means what you think it means. You've made some suggestions for changes to the site's policies, I'm giving reasons why I disagree with them - that's what Meta's for. What did you think would happen? You'd show us all the light and we'd suddenly be happy to spend our free time helping people who flatly refuse the somewhat minimal effort of helping themselves? "My proposal is to simply remove the aforementioned rule" - no.
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 15, 2015 at 16:14
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    @samthebest To beat a dead horse exactly once, the site is not full of pedants. The site is full of people who care about the site, and the quality of the content on it. Those people are the only thing between us and being the next "Yahoo answers". You have enough rep to have seen the deluge of crap we get, propose something to fix that and we can talk about making closing harder. Jul 15, 2015 at 16:47
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    @samthebest This is surprising to you? That you are expected to back up your claims/assertions/desire for change with actual facts? Or ask a question with enough knowledge to discuss said question intelligently? Thats a pretty low bar. Jul 15, 2015 at 16:48
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    No, actually, you're asking for a fundamental change in the site. From the point of view of most other people in these comments, this change would be detrimental to the site. If you are maintaining something at work, and a coworker comes up and suggests a complete change to a fundamental part of the system that would change how everything works, but you don't see the problem with the current system and think the change would be actively harmful, would you not want some sort of "proof" before you put time and effort into such a massive change?
    – Kendra
    Jul 15, 2015 at 16:50
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    @samthebest "the site is full of pedants who spoil it for new users" - no, it's full of new users who spoil it for the pedants (or experts who can actually answer the questions, as they're better known).
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 15, 2015 at 17:06
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    I highlighted a problem, the problem does exist Where I come from this is called an assertion and an assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
    – asawyer
    Jul 15, 2015 at 20:23

3 Answers 3

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These rules have nothing to do with SEO (which is as inscrutable now as it was 7 years ago) or disc space (which was still pretty cheap 7 years ago). They have everything to do with people not reading.

Background: in which I annoy you with graphic analogies

7 years ago, the problem was that programmers seem to have stopped reading books; today it's that programmers seem to have stopped reading anything - up to and including their own code.

7 years ago, programmers hungry for knowledge would increasingly balk at sitting down for a meal and finding themselves served an entire cow, horns hide and hooves. Stack Overflow was designed to offer up bite-sized pieces... And right from the start, the folks answering here found themselves confronted by people who really preferred their knowledge pre-chewed and partially-digested.

Now, everyone begins their life getting knowledge (and food) in that form. But it is incredibly inefficient - and if you're never weened, you'll never be able to care for yourself much less assist others... Which sorta breaks the entire system that drives Stack Overflow: it's supposed to be peers helping each other, not a few wetnurses serving the planet. So over time, a fair bit of resentment grew up toward folks who didn't seem to be able or willing to unlatch and survive on their own.

Now, here's where it gets interesting... This resentment is frequently misdirected.

Check out this lament from earlier today: it is the flip side of your own, its author weary to the point of exhaustion from thoughtless questions and equally thoughtless answers, and just as frustrated as you with the folks who - trying to help - respond by shutting down anything that doesn't fit the groove carved out by the very people whose questions they resent.

The death of accessible programming books was signaled by an explosion of pulp pap "learn how to everything in 12 days by osmosis" publications that pushed out anything of educational value before asphyxiating in its own halitosis... There's every reason to fear we're heading in the same direction.

Fear is dangerous; fear leads you to do stupid things quickly. Fear causes folks to stomp hard on the accelerator when their car is heading into a pile-up, and fear replaces a search for novelty and clarity with demands for public self-flagellation.

All is lost, I shall spend my remaining days mourning what could have been! Or: what can I do about this if I'm not quite ready to sit and wait for death just yet?

So... You could give up; there's no shame in that. Well... Ok, there's a little bit of shame, but at this point it's almost traditional to just pick up and leave when a community has grown beyond the scale where you're comfortable with it anymore. This is why so many forums (and cities) expand like mushroom rings, lively on the edges and dead in the middle.

But there are some advantages to this kind of scale, and if you're not ready to give them up then you do have another option...

  1. Don't do what you just did here. This is the hardest step; it is in our nature to identify patterns, and "the sky is falling!" is a pretty hard pattern to ignore. It's also pretty hard to do anything about and just as likely to be misidentified... So folks mostly just get annoyed after the first time they react to it only to find the sky still in its place.

  2. DO raise specific problems here for discussion and correction. Come across a good question closed for a bad reason? Don't fret - fix! There are scores of people here who would happily correct misguided moderation were they convinced of its existence; all you need to do is point it out and calmly explain why the question has merits unrecognized by its moderators.

  3. Edit. Whether you like it or not, a tremendous amount of knee-jerk moderation is triggered by plain old bad writing. If you care about a question, taking a few minutes to make it read as though it was written by an educated adult instead of drawn on a wall in crayon can make a huge difference in its future prospects.

This is all tedious and time-consuming and hard work though. If you do decide to go down this route, you should stock up on supplies first. I recommend Hormel-brand Spam; it's pre-chewed and perhaps even partially-digested...

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    +1000 for "today it's that programmers seem to have stopped reading anything - up to and including their own code." Jul 15, 2015 at 18:05
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    You mean I can't learn anything and everything in 140 characters? That it might take more than a day training to master a subject? I might have to work at things myself to learn? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS.
    – enderland
    Jul 16, 2015 at 13:20
  • I think I must have read this sentence 12 times "shutting down anything that doesn't fit the groove carved out by the very people whose questions they resent" But I don't understand what it means :(
    – Scratte
    Sep 17, 2020 at 18:58
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    Folks asking highly-specific debugging questions promoted the creation of rules and guidance for asking debugging questions, which then get applied to HOWTO questions where they cannot be applied, @scratte. In other words, strategies intended to discourage a certain form of low-value question may in fact have resulted in a culture where only that form of question is well-supported.
    – Shog9
    Sep 17, 2020 at 19:08
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Let's not do that.

And it is not because I'm one of the pedants you seem to dislike but it is because you seem to assume that the question needs to be helpful for the asker which I sincerely disagree with.

The helpful culture exists because a lot of visitors find what they are looking for because of the tons of great posts we already have available. That has become that way (and is somewhat envisioned by the founders of the site) because the questions need to be helpful to future visitors.

That requirement makes that we most often can't accept questions that aren't generalized, reduced to it's core problem or with context that is only applicable to the OP.

It is true that questions that don't meet those requirements are answerable and will certainly help the OP if answered. The problem is that the signal to noise ratio with too many of these specific localized questions will reduce the overall hit-rate of searches by users/visitors looking for a similar solution but due to the localized aspects of all the questions, none of them meet their needs.

We may hope that user either asks a new question, hopefully better geared for future users or they will run-away and never come-back. That scenario is where nobody gets helped anymore. Not a single culture change will repair that damage.

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OK, here is my solution to how you can completely fix StackOverflow and stop all the flame wars and pedants.

  1. Reputation is not publicly visible, or even easily knowable to the user
  2. Reputation only facilitates the ability to unlock certain features
  3. Votes are not visible - rather a positive trending score is displayed, which is calculated using age in addition to votes.
  4. The accepted answer ought not always be ranked top.

My theory is based on the observation that the higher the reputation the less helpful and more pedantic the person. The points system is known to reward time spent on the site, which must mean the individual has an obsessive personality and some strange egocentric coupling of some virtual number with no monetary value with their own activity. If the pedants and OCD suffers can longer see their points accrue, their only motivation to use the site will be to actually help people! TADA!!

If people really only help each other in order to get some points on a website, what does this say about those people?

My other idea is bitcoin instead of bounties. At the time SO was created bitcoin didn't exist, and money would have taken the fun out of it. People like collecting bitcoin, even if the value is less than the value of the time spent to answer a question.

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    "My theory is based on the observation that the higher the reputation the less helpful and more pedantic the person." I guess that must mean I've never helped anyone. I do close a lot of bad questions, but that doesn't mean I don't help out on good questions. And yes, you need to put some effort into writing a good question, and you should do research before asking. (SO isn't a substitute for trying to do your work yourself.)
    – Jon Skeet
    Jul 15, 2015 at 16:38
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    Yeah, that claim is 100% ridiculous. Have you looked at how much @JonSkeet answers/'helps"? He pretty much annihilates the rest of us by a factor of 10, hence his massive reputation. Jul 15, 2015 at 16:43
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    For your bitcoin suggestion, that's actually a worse idea than reputation- Mainly because bitcoin is real currency. All work here to answer questions and moderate the site, aside from when the SE Team steps in, is volunteer work. If you add any form of real currency into things, things are actually only going to get worse. People will do far stupider things and take the site downhill fast if they get real value out of it instead of Fake Internet Points. Your third point is an interesting idea to me, but I'm not sure how well it'd really work here...
    – Kendra
    Jul 15, 2015 at 16:44
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    Also, uh, when it comes to bitcoin....well, money is weird, culturally. It's amazing how much you can get people to do for free, under the guise of "volunteering", that you can't pay people to do. (Dan Ariely has a pretty good chapter about this in Predictably Irrational). I suspect, if you started trying to pay people for answers, they'd very quickly find it very ill-paid work as compared to their day jobs :P Jul 15, 2015 at 17:01
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    Your solution will work because it will effectively shutdown SO. No site, no flamewars, no pendants, no problem.
    – Mysticial
    Jul 15, 2015 at 17:02
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    In the same way that you can often convince people to pick up some trash, in the name of the environment/public cleanliness, but you wouldn't be able to get them to do it for minimum wage. Jul 15, 2015 at 17:02
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    If you seriously need someone to work on your project that bloody bad, hire someone. Jul 15, 2015 at 17:03
  • 1. I only help others because I want to help them. I'm happy if I get upvotes and rep (who doesn't!?), but I'm happier if it solves OP's problem. 2. I don't have bitcoin, and neither 90%+ users here.
    – Andrew T.
    Jul 15, 2015 at 17:16
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    I do not and never will have 'bitcoin' - I will edit as much as needed, flag to close as much as needed, downvote as much as needed - this answer inspired me to be more "pedantic".
    – user4756884
    Jul 15, 2015 at 19:46
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    "If people really only help each other in order to get some points on a website, what does this say about those people?" - what does this assumption say about you?
    – sehe
    Jul 15, 2015 at 22:23
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    I am downvoting because this answer already has so many downvotes. May 19, 2016 at 13:17
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    I know I'm like, a few years late, but I find it incredibly funny that someone's who's display name is actually samthebest speaks to anyone else about being pedantic. Like, actually, no, this is not funny, this is the very definition of pedantic. I bet that you think that all the downvotes on your answer are also wind, and that against all that you still believe you are right? Sep 7, 2017 at 20:23

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