32

So, I'm sure that I'm not the only one that's noticed this article and this thread from /r/programming on Reddit, and, truth be told, there is at least a speck of truth in the things that this person and the things that the people he quotes are saying. The gist of it is that people think that the community of Stack Overflow is hostile and unwelcoming.

While I definitely believe in the reputation and quality of Stack Overflow, it seems that Stack Overflow has a meta problem; many people are dissatisfied with its community, but in many ways, Stack Overflow itself may shape its own community because of the way its current systems work.

What sorts of systems or mechanisms can we think of to improve the quality of our community?

Personally, I think the best option is to start converting the nature of systems from combative to cooperative. As cheesy as it might sound, this might actually greatly help the tone of Stack Overflow if this shift were to occur.

56
  • 10
    +1 for the spirit, good thoughts. But open-ended discussions asking for ideas tend to do much worse on Meta than specific, concrete suggestions - although the likelihood of implementation for the latter is low, especially if they're about fundamental changes. There also is a lot of existing work on the topic, this has been the subject of many a discussion and also feature request.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 8:45
  • 6
    OK, so what do you propose we do? Specifically?
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50
  • 53
    What sorts of systems or mechanisms can we think of to improve the quality of our community? Continue what we're doing now. This community is of high quality because of our no-nonsense attitude regarding crap content. That others deem us "hostile" or "declining" is irrelevant. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 8:52
  • 49
    @VermillionAzure: the vast majority of visitors are not here to ask questions though; they already have found their answer. The majority of users that perceive Stack Overflow as hostile have asked low-quality crap questions and / or did not search properly first. And that's a real problem for this site, as it becomes harder for the experts (those that answer the questions) to find stuff they want to answer. If we lose those users, only then is Stack Overflow in trouble.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 8:55
  • 47
    By the way, I was underwhelmed by that Medium article. It reads essentially like a write-up of everything that comes up when Googling "Stack Overflow sucks". That doesn't mean they are wrong about everything, of course; they make painfully good points. But the article fails to acknowledge the massive challenges SO is up against, and the fact that no one else has managed to come this far. As David Robinson so aptly commented, "That city's littering laws are too strict. I'd leave, but for some reason every other city is covered in garbage"
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 8:56
  • 8
    @VermillionAzure: really, the perceived hostility is eventual impatience with newcomers for not investing the effort to get to know the format and the expectations we have of what goes and what doesn't. That's the price of popularity, the absolute number of people not understanding how the site works grows. Their percentage is pretty stable, I think; e.g. the number of people that do understand also grows, and they don't complain loudly.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 8:57
  • 51
    Stack Overflow exists to provide answers, not tutoring. People coming here expecting to find some sorts of free (as in beer) substitute for a programming course will be disappointed. C'est la vie.
    – yannis
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:09
  • 8
    I am reopening this because the duplicate is over a year old, the mechanism of 'meta' needs to allow for things to be revisited, and since we have no way of making something old 'fresh again' without asking again, it's good to air on leaving these open. That doesn't compel you to participate in this discussion, but I'd like to leave it open for anyone that wants to.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:42
  • 7
    Now, for my feedback (just mine) I think you could pretty much condense this into the last part of your question. The stuff going around that is basically 'people think' or 'people perceive' isn't in any way shown to be representative of how 'people' actually feel about the site. Many are isolated bad experiences stitched together like patchwork where the author ends with "And you could make a whole quilt out of these". I'm not saying we don't have room to improve, but I don't find many of them fair, some even less-than-factual, and all of them pretty much just 'angry'.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:45
  • 20
    @VermillionAzure: that comment is clickbait. If I posted a comment refuting it, thoughtfully, with references and evidence and stats, do you think it'll get voted up? Don't confuse popularity with factual statements.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:59
  • 7
    @VermillionAzure: what I am saying is that you cannot use the absolute numbers there as proof for anything. We have no idea how many of those actually used Stack Overflow and can meaningfully say anything about how the site works.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 10:09
  • 20
    This question perfectly demonstrates the single most confusing aspect of meta: its votes. The votes make the question seem controversial, but in reality the upvotes are most likely a way of saying "this discussion is worth having regardless of what I think of the proposal", and the downvotes are a way of saying "this discussion is worth having, but I disagree with the proposal and/or its premise".
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:14
  • 7
    @JasonMc92 so you're saying the existing members are just too lazy to accept what are actually great ideas? And that all the arguments brought forth against those ideas are not valid in themselves, but just there to mask the community's unwillingness to do work?
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 10:49
  • 5
    All of these arguments have already been made meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/250177 meta.stackexchange.com/questions/135 and meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6521 I am on the boat of followup every downvote with a comment, but, i still don't believe they should be required. Two separate systems with two separate purposes. (@VermillionAzure and a discussion like this in comments is exactly why an open-ended question like this is terrible. No one will find this discussion if they're looking for it.)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 22:37
  • 4
    @Pekka웃 people have been complaining about how SO operates for years, and yet for all that complaining, no one's come up with anything better. Reminds me of that quote from Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time". Replace "democracy" with "Stack Overflow", and "government" with "Q&A".
    – user456814
    Commented Sep 17, 2015 at 3:48

16 Answers 16

132

I propose we read posts like The decline of Stack Overflow with a critical eye and recognize that it's little more than a Google/copy/paste article designed to drive traffic to a blog.

Let's look closely at the examples illustrated in the article.

How can I get rid of 'this' keyword in local functions?

Here's that post today after being edited extensively by the OP a few months back, then reopened and upvoted by the community. (What a bunch of trolls!)

Next...

Fast database access from .Net

That post was reopened nearly six years ago by a moderator (What a Nazi!). What's more, that question was closed by a single user back in August 2008, a month before the official launch of Stack Overflow. (The site was still in "beta" at the time.) The rules for closing questions changed years ago. This problem has been thoroughly solved for some time.

Finally...

Angle between points?

That question was also extensively edited by the OP back in 2011. It wasn't reopened by the community until a few months ago, probably because it lacked exposure due to a missing tag. It also got a good answer after being reopened. (Why do we hate n00bs so much?)

These cherry-picked examples really illustrate what kind of "reporting" this is. It's the kind you get when you get your news from echo chamber aggregators like Hacker News and (to a lesser extent) reddit/r/programming. When people just want to complain about something, they'll go out of their way to find problems, even if they've long been fixed.


That's not to say that I don't think Stack Overflow has problems. I was a moderator here for six years. I've seen the worst this site has to offer. I just don't think our personal blogs and reddit comments are the place to talk about them if we want them to be fixed. We do that here on Meta.

27
  • 21
  • 3
    @BradLarson I hadn't seen that thread. He seems very uninterested in actually fixing any problems. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:56
  • 9
    There’s actually a healthy discussion on r/programming of this post (well, for reddit it’s surprisingly healthy). Nevertheless, the blog post itself is purely toxic. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 15:19
  • 6
    @BradLarson I think another clue is the author's last Meta post (from Friday): meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/298538/…, at which point this sort of looks like the results of a misspent weekend of Googling
    – David Robinson Staff
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 15:41
  • 11
    @Bill the Lizard: Honestly, the article alone does more than enough to show that. Of all the viral "Stack Overflow sucks" posts I have seen, the tone in this one is by far the most vitriolic of its kind - it makes the others seem pleasant in comparison. Once you've resorted to categorizing an entire community of users as trolls it means you have basically given up on that community.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 17:59
  • 2
    @BilltheLizard I agree with your examples and the gist of your argument. Don't you think it's ironic though, that this topic here on meta has been down voted? To me, that says volumes about the SO culture. By simply asking for ideas to make things more positive, the OP is down voted. Awesome.
    – darlirium
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:16
  • 3
    @williamdnapier: Absolutely one of the most frustrating and confusing aspects of meta. See the comment I just left on the question a couple of minutes prior.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:19
  • 7
    @williamdnapier Read the top few comments on the question. A downvote doesn't mean "How dare you even suggest we improve?" Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:20
  • 3
    @Brad Larson: "immaturity among moderators", eh?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 19:24
  • 13
    @VermillionAzure We don't really need a separate question for ideas on how to make a more positive community. If people have suggestions on how to do that, they're always welcome to post those suggestions here on Meta. This is like having a separate question on SO where people can post their programming questions as answers. Since the whole premise of your question was based on a blog post, I addressed the premise instead. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 19:30
  • 19
    @VermillionAzure My issue isn't with the tone or style of the blog post, it's with the facts. He didn't have any to support his opinion, so he manufactured some. The fact that that got large approval on reddit indicates that a lot of people on reddit don't fundamentally understand the purpose of Stack Overflow. My suggestion for improving the community is to post suggestions here on Meta. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 19:35
  • 8
    Two of these questions were reopened and upvoted because Jason S mentioned them in a blog post that was picked up by both Reddit and Hacker News. The system needs a little nudge sometimes.
    – Michael Myers Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 23:12
  • 8
    All the close messages encourage editing now, @MichaelMyers. That was a pretty major design goal a couple years back, for exactly this reason.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 4:38
  • 8
    @williamdnapier I don't see SO/Meta as a conflict between the "haves" and "have nots" as much as it is a conflict between people who have been around and know the rules, and people who haven't been and don't. Meta in particular. The reasons for downvoting can seem to change with each question, even to people experienced on SO. Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 12:28
  • 2
    Instead of answering the question, this post denies a problem exists. The fact that it has been upvoted as often as it has shows that lots of us are in denial...
    – Jay Elston
    Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 14:43
32

As always, these complaints fail to come to grips with the sheer scale of garbage on the Internet. For each reasonable person who has a bad experience here, there are thousands of creeps who show up and deposit trash.

At the scale of the entire Internet, you can't help everyone; you can't set up a system that 'trains and educates' those few who could be trained and educated while still controlling all the incoming trash. You can't even control all the people who have enough reputation to leave a snarky comment.

The experience of someone on a site like this is a two-way street in two ways. Of course, first, the new user could search, read the FAQ, etc., and likely avoid any kicks in the shins. More to the point, they could realize that posting a question in front of the entire Internet is likely to result in responses that span good, bad, and snarky (not to mention written by a dog wearing a tinfoil hat). And grow a thicker skin. That's a very low price for free help.

Luckily, fewer and fewer people need to ask a question at all, since more and more just find what they need already here.

5
  • 3
    We could attempt to change the culture by not tolerating unhelpful behaviors.
    – tvanfosson
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:45
  • 10
    @tvanfosson Such as... Everyone says we have all these "unhelpful" behaviors, then never has a way to change them without affecting site quality (note that the usual "unhelpful" behaviors are often very helpful) Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:49
  • 9
    Some tiny number of people make snarky remarks. That's pretty much it for 'unhelpful'. Downvotes aren't 'unhelpful', they are rating the content, which is what the site needs.
    – bmargulies
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 19:35
  • 2
  • Downvotes are not unhelpful, downvotes without trying to help the user is unhelpful. But how many here are able to understand this? This community is self-sabotaging now, but people prefer to say "everything's all right".
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:34
21

In my opinion, the best way to improve the community is to disallow people to post crappy questions. It is harder and harder to find an interesting question in a pile of duplicates/garbage, and this causes knowledgeable users to contribute less.

It is not interesting to:

  • answer for the 20-th time why a person has a problem with this in JavaScript
  • debug code for a person who does not want to do any debugging and wants only a working version of his copypasted code
  • read five pages of code to find a problem, just because OP did not even wanted to localize the problem
  • answer questions. "I am a total noob with X, Y, and Z, but I need to develop a system which will handle millions of requests per second. What is the right approach?"

The community is already doing too much work trying to convert a shit to a sweet by editing every i try codes thet does stuff 'bunch of unformatted wall of code' and hve prblem. can y help me fast??? only java into something more or less readable. I am not speaking here about the problem with English (not a native speaker myself), but if a person has spent less than a minute writing his question and did not even bother to look at it after posting, why are we surprised with hostility (I am actually surprised that there are people who spend their time trying to edit this).

Stack Overflow is here to help (do not be confused with tech support, debug, teach) with programming problems. And it is a responsibility of the help seeker to learn the rules, be polite, be as clear as possible with the problem.

5
  • 9
    This attitude is why I participate less and less as time goes by. I do come here to both learn and teach (and thereby learn more and deeper). The narrowing of SO to the mechanical "solve this particular problem" has made it much, much less interesting to me.
    – tvanfosson
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 13:34
  • 1
    One the one hand, yes, we have a lot of "give me da codez" and such questions that help no one. On the other hand, many GOOD questions are blasted by some of the less-friendly SOers, simply because "the person should JUST KNOW the answer, despite the fact it is not documented anywhere in existence," or "who the #%&@# uses that platform to do that task??", or "who the @%#%&@ does that task?" Thus, if we just vaguely "don't allow posting crappy questions", we have carefully craft a system that cannot be abused. Meanwhile, no one can improve if they only see "your post sucks, go die." Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 22:38
  • (Not that you're suggestion that error message show up, but that type of response is present on MANY programmer web communities, USENET not being least among them.) Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 22:39
  • In regards to your first point, that sounds like the problem people used to have with USENET groups -- people kept asking the same questions over and over. It's my understanding that's what lead to F.A.Q.s. Maybe SO needs some sort of "Commonly Asked Questions" about a topic that point to canonical SO questions with the answers. (This might be a good project for a third party website.)
    – Slapout
    Commented Jul 17, 2015 at 21:44
  • 1
    @Slapout: That are our highly-scored, often-viewed, and/or oft-linked questions. Commented Jul 18, 2015 at 0:40
13

The term 'positive community' appears to be somewhat subjective. In my experience of SO, other users have been almost entirely helpful and encouraging, with the culture being one of helping those who are willing to help themselves. I don't see much scope for making that any more positive, however the exisitence of this question demonstrates that other members of the SO community do perceive there to be a problem.

In order to make further proposals for how to "help Stack Overflow create a more positive community", it is essential to have a precise, objective and unambiguous definition of the problem and some meaningful metrics that could be used to determine whether it has been solved.

Therefore, my proposal is that we need to define and quantify the problem in order to be able to determine what specific solutions could be applied and even whether it needs to be addressed at all. To this end we would have to answer the following questions.

  • What is the definition of 'positive community' and how can it be measured?
  • What effect does the positivity of the community have on the ability of the site to meet its goals and how can that be measured?

In doing so, care must be taken to ensure that the metrics used are free of statistical and (if applicable) psychological bias, or that any such biases are identified and can themselves be quantified and the metrics adjusted accordingly.

Further solutions can then be analysed for their capability to address the underlying causes of the unwanted effects of the current community's positivity; implemented; piloted to determine their effectiveness and eventually rolled out once they've been shown to solve the problem.

2
  • 1
    I agree with this answer. I would say that despite the objectivity, there is indeed a group of people who have developed an aversion to SO based on its community, for whatever experiences they had.
    – CinchBlue
    Commented Jul 9, 2015 at 2:48
  • "other users have been almost entirely helpful and encouraging, " Are you joking?
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:35
10

What people, including the article writer, don't get is that Stack Overflow is a website for serious computer science professionals, not wannabe coders looking for easy homework help and fun conversation. This is coming from someone who was on the receiving end of some pretty nasty anti-newbie sentiment, but all that did was teach me how to behave like a professional and still take down trolls. (My speech "A Field Guide to Common Nerds" is based entirely on those experiences, and how a newbie can survive in the programming field.)

Stack Overflow isn't perfect, but it achieved its goal of having more reliable programming information than anywhere else online, shy of the documentation, in my humble opinion! Its flaws are not unique - in fact, Stack Overflow is considerably nicer than other similar communities, namely programming forums and Usenet, which have a considerably larger noise-to-info ratio anyhow. The community's flaws are based in the personality quirks common to the computer science industry, which Eric S. Raymond did a pretty darn good job of documenting.

That said, I do think that Stack Overflow could be made less hostile to beginners who really do want to learn and aren't just asking us to "give me da codez". Somewhere else on meta, a year or two ago, someone made the brilliant proposal of new users having to actually complete an interactive training session before posting to Stack Overflow, in which they learn what a good question, a good answer, and a good comment should look like. For one thing, it'd cut down on OUR work as reviewers.

As much as I hate getting downvotes, I think the mechanism is still important for flagging especially problematic questions. Without it, we're more likely to create an atmosphere that, while "friendly" to beginners, mirrors the Eternal September on Usenet, when the noise overwhelmed information because of the sudden uncontrollable influx of idiot-category newbies.

More than anything, I think the problem with downvotes is that many people on Stack Overflow misunderstand a downvote as a proverbial "dislike" button, much like on YouTube, and never bother to read the tooltip.

I honestly believe that if downvoting REQUIRED a comment, at least an anonymous one, explaining "why" - and if the tooltip text were clearly written above that special comment box - we would get less mindless downvoting, and a more constructive environment. The more habitually unfriendly people would actually have to come to terms with the fact that they are often downvoting just because they're arrogant, self-important twits, not because the question or answer is inherently bad. Then, the constructive downvotes would be able to survive, and actually provide a means for the poster to IMPROVE future questions and answers.

This downvote comment could even be multiple-choice like our flag box is now. One extra click, and still anonymous, and it would provide the information that others need to A) improve their posts, and B) recognize why an answer is a bad idea before they ignore the "dislikes" (so they think) and run with it.

Those steps alone would go a long way to improving the community, without losing sight of why Stack Overflow is here in the first place, or irritating the living daylights out of those of us who know what on earth we're doing.

18
  • 7
    Agreed with most of your post, but beware that you're diving into the deep end of Meta by suggesting comments for downvotes.
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:11
  • 7
    Since i can't -.5, i'll round it up(down?) to -1. interactive training session, i'm unbiased about because i don't know how many of the new users would simply do whatever they could to skip past it as fast as possible, how many would use it legitimately to learn but then fail to apply it to their question, or how many would actually learn from it and post a great question. Requiring downvotes to be accompanied by a comment on the other hand.... no...
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:13
  • 3
    Mmmm... where do the "enthusiasts" fit into your "serious computer science professionals"? Where do I fit in? "professionals and enthusiasts" it says on the tooltip at the bottom of the page. Where did you find that description of yours? Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:38
  • @BillWoodger, frankly, I consider "enthusiasts" to be as much a part of the group of professionals as anyone. After all, that's where I started. Serious enthusiasts make up a good portion of hacker culture (hacker, not cracker). They also fall into the same category of seriously wanting to learn and improve, not just be handed the answer on a silver platter. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:41
  • I know I'm "diving into the deep end", but it IS a legitimate answer to the question. Downvote without information is just anonymous, useless criticism. Anything done online that one doesn't want attached to their name shouldn't be done anyhow, but notice that my proposal actually suggested ANONYMOUS comments. Shoot, even a multiple choice like on a flag would be more productive than what we have now. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:42
  • I could care less if someone knew i was the one that downvoted them, i just don't want to have to add a comment that simply repeats the tooltip. Maybe, once a question (or answer) is downvoted, present the downvote tooltip as a note on the question to it's owner.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:43
  • The problem is, A) many don't read the tooltip, and B) "not useful" doesn't say anything. Wrong info, no effort before posting, horrendous question format, suggesting a dangerous practice, just saying "I don't agree with this"...what does "not useful" mean? Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:45
  • So enthusiasts and people who happen never tio have attended a Computer Science session still fit in "serious computer science professionals" sufficiently for an average meta reader to understand that? Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:46
  • it means not useful of course. but i assume you mean "Why" isn't it useful, which is a valid point.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:47
  • @KevinB, yes, exactly. Like I said, even a multiple choice like on our flag box. If no one wants to put in the extra effort on a downvote to provide a why, then they are essentially wanting everyone else besides them to put in a little extra effort to improve the community. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:48
  • I focus more on question downvotes than answer downvotes, answer downvotes don't have much meaning short of improving that one answer. Question downvotes on the other hand impact how visible the question is. The tooltip for downvoting a question has far more meaning than "not useful"
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:50
  • @BillWoodger, yes, they do. It's a case of 'read the documentation', oftentimes. There are a ton of resources online. I don't have a degree in this. I'm almost completely self-taught, except for one C++ class I took well after I started hanging out SO. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:52
  • @KevinB, well, sometimes, but it still is important to know on an answer things like "This doesn't answer the actual question," or "This method is unsound," or "This contains inaccurate information." Again, just a multiple-choice selector, with the obvious freeform "Other" option at the bottom. One extra click. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:53
  • @KevinB, going back and addressing your other point - by interactive training session, I mean having to actually answer multiple-choice "what is wrong with this part of the question/comment/answer" type questions on some example posts, after reading through the basics. They can retry the training session as many times as they want, but until they get all eight or so questions right, they can't post. It can't just be ignored like our FAQ is now. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 18:57
  • 1
    Things are being considered, see here, meta.stackoverflow.com/q/295683/1927206, and Tim Post's answer on that. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 19:10
10

As a longtime reader and a more recent contributor, I see a few things that I haven't seen mentioned her (or in other similar threads).

  • Except in a few new technologies, it seems like all the core (beginner) questions have already been asked and answered. My suggested "next badge" is to ask five questions. I've been programming for 25 years, and I can't think of any questions that are not either already asked or so narrow that nobody can answer. It is a lot easier on the other Stack Exchange sites to ask basic questions, because they haven't been around as long.
  • At the beginning of Stack Overflow, the superiority of this site compared to the competition was only really apparent to those who already had a clue, and it wasn't at the top of most search results, so beginners would go somewhere else, not here. That is no longer true.
  • With increased number of visitors, there are increased demands on the number of items to be worked in the queues, which means less time to be nice to beginners.

Pointing all this out is a great way to make up excuses, but it doesn't fix the core problem. The core problem, as I see it, is that all of the Stack Exchange programming sites assume the questioner understands computer programming enough to be able to sift through various search results and understand what the answers are saying (this is true on non-programming sites as well, as it turns out).

Maybe we need to consider a Beginners Stack Overflow site. Maybe if we let people who write blogs or books (aka "educators") help out beginners for a chance to plug their own work, we can separate questions into "We need to find out the answer" and "We need to help the questioner" buckets, and send the second set to the new site, where people can be more patient to the confused.

I don't know if that it's the right solution. I'm just trying to help make things better.

4
  • 3
    The beginners will of course find this site instead of the beginners site, thus making it somewhat useless to them. How do you differentiate between a professional that never used SO and a beginner that never used SO? Who would want to participate in the "beginner" SO?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 14:42
  • 2
    I guess I was thinking that we could migrate certain questions to the beginners site. Now that I've slept on it, another way to somewhat leverage current SE technology would be to open a chat room for the OP for these questions and encourage (through reputation or other methods) people to help educate posters. As to who would want to do this, I mentioned "educators" who had something to gain from this (book authors and bloggers who want eyeballs). Maybe we can think about resume building certificates or something? I'm just trying to explore possible answers here. Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 15:15
  • @GuySchalnat When I proposed an idea like this in the form of Atomic Coding, it was easily shot down. I don't think SO is really the place to do this.
    – CinchBlue
    Commented Jul 14, 2015 at 19:57
  • 4
    @vermillionAzure I see. Thanks for sharing. I'm not giving up on the idea that we could do something better for some of our users. I'm not exactly sure what yet, so I'm spending times in review queues and reading meta posts and SO help and thinking about things. Eating my waffles and riding my ponies. At some time, I may try to shape up another proposal along different lines. We will see. Commented Jul 15, 2015 at 2:40
3

To be specific about an issue, I think that the duplicate tag is applied too loosely. It's very discouraging to come to Stack Overflow, search for your answer, not find it, ask a question, and get it labelled duplicate even though it's not a duplicate. There are many times when it's justified (probably the majority), but quite a few where it's not. This seems like one of the canonical posts on the subject: How should duplicate questions be handled?. This link seems to imply a much more lenient benefit-of-the-doubt policy than what is currently employed. Consider this quote:

It depends. If a question is an exact duplicate, then go ahead and (vote to) close it. However, note that questions may be similar without being exact duplicates:

The word exact is pretty strong IMHO, suggesting that if the question is in the grey zone, it should not be closed.

Unfortunately, the current mechanism has a bit of the opposite tendency built in. 30 people with close privileges can see a question; 25 don't think it should be closed, but they don't want to answer, and 5 think it should be closed. The 5 vote to close, and it's closed. Then you need to gather people to vote to re-open which isn't easy.

I don't know what mechanism exactly would solve this. I do think though that if a question that's marked duplicate is re-opened, there should be a loss of reputation. If you lose reputation for writing a sloppy question or sloppy answer (as perceived by other people), why shouldn't you lose reputation for sloppily closing a question (as perceived by other people). Similar mechanisms should apply for other grounds for closing a question (too broad, opinion-based, etc.). This would at least give a small amount of incentive to not close incorrectly.

6
  • 5
    If something is flagged / close voted as a duplicate, a comment will be automatically created stating "Possible duplicate..." this allows you to then state your case that it is not a duplicate. It also helps to reference those questions and their answers in your question and sate why it did not solve your problem. If your question still gets closed, you can edit your question with a clear statement of why the duplicate question's answers do not answer your question, then it will go through the reopen queue where five other users will vote on whether or not to reopen the question
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 1:41
  • 5
    @TinyGiant The time between possible duplicate and closing can sometimes be minutes. This mechanism is not very transparent to a new user. In addition, what with group think, people tend to down vote and make negative comments on a question when they see that it's possibly a duplicate. Once the question is closed, many users simply won't bother again. I think it's good you point out that some mechanisms are in place, but I still feel in practice it's an issue, and a penalty for premature closing is appropriate. Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 1:48
  • 5
    I don't often see downvotes on duplicate questions unless those questions also have severe formatting / content issues. Questions that are closed are actually reopened quite often and the reopen queue is usually close to empty if not empty entirely. The fact of the matter is that this system works. It may not be a completely transparent process to new users, but it does work and if a question really is not a duplicate (not just that the user couldn't figure out how to apply the answers from the other question to their question) and it is a good question, then it will most likely be reopened...
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 1:54
  • The system is not perfect, no system is, but it works great when it works. Yes there are things that get lost along the sidelines, but for the most part it works as intended. More than anything else, the issue is with users asking questions when they don't understand the community and the guidelines.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 1:55
  • 4
    I've seen many closed questions where I haven't felt that way, and I know many intelligent people, some with lots of SO rep and some who barely used the website, who've had similar observations. I agree that it "mostly" works as intended, but there's still plenty of unintended that could be improved. Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 2:11
  • I agree, I have spent time answering questions that get closed as duplicates that are not really duplicates.
    – Jay Elston
    Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 14:49
-5

"They don't provide any constructive ideas!" That's sort of like the problem with this whole site in a nutshell. And maybe with too much of the internet, really: people can get in and attack and criticise because it is so much easier than doing something. Then again, it's no wonder "people think that the community of Stack Overflow is hostile and unwelcoming" when so much of the discussion of this issue is itself... "hostile and unwelcoming"?

1
-8

The fact that so many IMO good comments HERE (posted not by me) are downvoted so much actually speaks for itself. SO community is somewhat hostile and not very welcoming IMO. I know most of whoever couldn't care less, but I am going to use my freedom to post here and say that SO is basically based on the "people like us " principle. Congratulations - the rest of the internet is obviously swimming in garbage and SO is a ouh-so-not-garbage walled garden!

I realize that I am not providing any constructive solutions in this comment, but hey, so many comments HERE way more constructive than mine got shot down so fast... That I am not even trying... You get my point - I hope.

20
  • 4
    Except that comments in the comment box cannot be downvoted. When people abuse the answer feature by posting comments, questions, or other kinds of non-answers, the tools that we have available to deal with this is downvotes, flags, and delete votes. It is not Stack Overflow's fault that some new users cannot understand the rules and guidelines, if they even bother to read them at all. Other new users read and comprehend the documentation before using a service, thus allowing them a more seamless entry into the system.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:07
  • And you downvoting a comment is not abuse? And how did you exactly disprove anything that I said in my comment? Clearly you disagree with what I am saying since I you downvoted my comment - I imagine. Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:11
  • BTW I stopped caring about downvotes and trolls on SO a long long time ago. And thanks to the rules of the meta - I can comment in the meta - so I am exercising my rights. And you downvoting my comment - is your right - but do I need to explain that it is hostile? Or am I supposed to not take it personally? lol wink wink Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:17
  • 5
    I do disagree with your comment. I have detailed one of my counter points in my previous comment. Note that voting is different on meta. Downvoting a comment that is posted as an answer is not "abuse". I also did not mean "abuse" as in physical or mental abuse, but rather as to imply that it was an improper use of the feature which is documented as being disallowed.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:18
  • 1
    You're right, this is meta and this is intended to be a discussion. On main it is not intended to be a discussion, which is why comments aren't allowed to be posted as answers. Also on meta, users show agreement or disagreement with questions and answers through voting. On main, voting is used to indicate usefulness, relevance, completeness, quality, etc. but generally not to show agreement or disagreement.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:22
  • Exactly my point. We disagree. Not just about whatever silly SO rules that mean rather nothing. But about what comments here are helpful or not. My opinion is that multiple helpful comments here are downvoted for no good reason. Hence - I am saying that this discussion is great - for the record. We can actually see the hostility in action. Cheers. Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:35
  • And what is the matter with the css shading of comments with less than -9? Makes them hard to read. And this is regardless of whether you agree or disagree with a comment... Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:41
  • Ohhhhhhhh I took "The fact that so many IMO good comments (posted not by me) are downvoted so much actually speaks for itself" as referring to the broader situation of comments posted as answers being downvoted across Stack Overfow as a whole, not just the responses to this question. My mistake but you may want to disambiguate that a bit. That completely changes the perceived intent of your answer.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:50
  • 3
    @ShamilAssylbekov: Please stop calling answers "comments", even answers to [discussion] questions on meta sites. Either they're actually comments and should be converted or deleted, or they aren't comments at all and the wrong terminology just confuses the issues. On main, answers <=3 score are faded out (unless you hover over them) because they are unreliable; on meta, answers <=8 get the same treatment because they're so thoroughly disagreed with. Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 5:43
  • 3
    @ShamilAssylbekov: Unless you have a specific explanation for why voting in a particular case is mistaken, it's extremely unwise to reject the votes of the community and assert that your own opinion should be substituted. Most of the time, votes mean that multiple thoughtful people considered an issue and came to particular conclusions, and there's usually no reason to assume they were significantly less competent to judge an argument's value than you are, except one's own natural ego. In short, if your opinion does not match others', seriously consider whether you might be wrong. Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 5:46
  • @Nathan Tuggy: There is a reason this thread exists. There is a reason this question got posted. There is a reason there is a similar looking reddit thread. There is a reason for all of this I am sure - regardless of my or your ego. There is a reason - whether you liked it a not - that I more than two years ago have independently googled "why is SO so hostile?" and google autocompleted my search query... Just saying... Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 5:50
  • And here we are a year later - and still having this discussion. Does it actually mean that this question has merit? Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 5:52
  • 4
    @ShamilAssylbekov: Alternate hypothesis: there are an awful lot of of people who are unable to distinguish "disagreement with ideas presented" from "personal hostility", or do not even accept that those can be distinguished. Given the trend toward "safe spaces" in colleges in the US these days (where rational discourse is censored heavily to avoid damaging the fragile psyches of students at large), this is a well-attested hypothesis. Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 5:56
  • 3
    @ShamilAssylbekov: To be clear, though, I don't necessarily disagree that SO has problems with many of its users being unnecessarily hostile, or even that there are systemic problems in the site's processes or UI that contribute. But most of the candidates presented by the disgruntled are, to my mind, entirely innocent of the actual problems, and many of them are crucial to the site's operation. Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 6:02
  • 4
    "People" is ambiguous. Some "people" love this site. They understand the goal, the rules, the guidelines, the culture, etc. Other "people" don't care about our goal, the rules, the guidelines, or the culture. They think that we should put aside all of these things and cater to them and how they think it should be run. You make a change by being active in the community and voicing your opinions strategically. You don't make a change standing on the outside talking about it with other strangers. That said, there are some users who are more hostile and unwelcoming than others in any group.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 6:52
-9

I think the problem is that there is insufficient dimensions in the grading of questions and answers. SO measures the quality of each question/answer with a single number (up/down votes). This is not enough. I believe we need more dimensions to the measure.

When I post a question on Meta for example, a downvote means something like someone disagrees with my idea not this is a stupid question. However, on SO, a downvote could mean anything from *oops! what the hell did I click on??** through I hate this guy 'cause he trashed my answer yesterday to this is a stupid question.

What new dimensions should be measured would probably be a topic for another thread. Perhaps This answer was top on Google and helped me solve the same problem and Can't be bothered to comment but the advice here is stupid might be candidates.

-11

This (not *this) is what is wrong with stackoverflow. I love this site, and the sister stackexchange sites.

That said, people have downvoted a critical answer to this question 46 times (and counting) mostly because it's critical. While I don't agree with that critical answer, the sentiment is right. stackoverflow.com and its sister sites are hostile as all get out, and getting more so by the day. A related site, physicsoverflow.org, was founded on the precept that hostility is a good thing (I'm not a member of that site). This site (and many of its sister sites) are emulating physics overflow, but in a passive-aggressive manner. In its favor, physics overflow is upfront and very aggressive about its stance. Behaviors at stackoverflow on the other hand are passive-aggressive in nature.

I no longer participate in flagging questions or answers. The atmosphere is far too hostile. I very rarely participate in any of the metas. The atmosphere here (and elsewhere) is even more hostile. I don't ask questions. Far too hostile. I've oftentimes wondered why anyone asks a question anymore. I no longer participate in the various reviews. It's a waste of effort. Those reviews should involve some amount of thought. By the time I've taken the time to think, five people eager to get that badge have already voted to approve the edit, or five soup nazis have already voted to close.

I'm a seasoned user on SO and across multiple SE sites. If I find things hostile, what is the new user to think?

6
  • 9
    So your suggestion to fix this is...? Also, its quite possible the 46 downvotes are because they don't agree with his solution. Commented Sep 16, 2015 at 22:54
  • @BradleyDotNET - I don't need to know how to fix this. When someone says you have a problem, you most likely have a problem. The idea that one can only report a problem if that person has as solution is downright destructive. This (speaking from experience) is what crashed the Columbia. Commented Sep 16, 2015 at 23:26
  • 2
    Regarding "That said, people have downvoted a critical answer to this question 46 times (and counting) mostly because it's critical.", see Downvotes on Meta are confusing: do they really mean poor-post quality, or just disagreement?. People use downvotes to express a lot of different things on Meta. You can't assume that they're all downvoting something just because it's critical of SO. Maybe they're simply expressing disagreement. Meta downvotes encapsulate a broad swath of sentiment in a single action.
    – user456814
    Commented Sep 17, 2015 at 12:08
  • It is very awkward that this is a community wiki answer, rather than just a regular one. I can understand the sentiment that receiving downvotes feels sucky, but at least on Meta, they don't actually cost you anything (except maybe your pride), since Meta doesn't award reputation, nor take it away.
    – user456814
    Commented Sep 17, 2015 at 12:12
  • 1
    @Cupcake - I went through the Challenger and Columbia disasters. One thing NASA learned (or should have learned) is that when someone says "NASA, you have a problem", they should pay attention. The person identifying the problem should not be chastised for identifying the problem, and does not need to have a solution at hand. SO, you have a problem. Commented Sep 17, 2015 at 12:36
  • 1
    I guess the community here knows we have a problem. This question asks for ideas on how to solve it: What sorts of systems or mechanisms can we think of to improve the quality of our community?
    – Palec
    Commented Sep 17, 2015 at 20:24
-14

You need real data to address you question. Run a poll open to everyone-once-registered and get real statistics, that will help telling what people feel/think about the site.

5
  • 2
    A poll is a great way to get public perception, as filtered through the question (Asking so you get the answer you want irrespective of the facts is an art). But it's just about useless in getting to the facts. Commented Jul 8, 2015 at 14:26
  • @Deduplicator I must disagree. If the survey is done by an independent party, objectively, and following scientific methods, then it shouldn't be biased toward the answer you or others wanted.
    – LuluPor
    Commented Jul 14, 2015 at 0:15
  • 3
    Well, that's what one hopes. But here in the real world, especially with such emotional and soft targets, that's quite unlikely. Commented Jul 14, 2015 at 0:18
  • Don't be so dramatic @Deduplicator, with that view science wouldn't exist. Yet, here we are; trying at least.
    – LuluPor
    Commented Jul 15, 2015 at 0:33
  • Can someone smart explain to me why is this getting downvoted so much? Why is it a bad idea? When I see this answer getting downvoted like this - I just don't feel that SO is a safe place... Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 5:45
-18

Where there is smoke, there is fire.

TL;DR

I find SO both useful and hostile. And the CONs outweigh the PROs.

PROS:

The knowledge contained in it is useful. Some people are nice and helpful.

CONS:

  1. The down voting is a form of trolling, bullying, similar to public shaming - ya know - that awful practice most of us in the real world don't support.
  2. Deleting someone else's comments is a form of bullying as well, especially without having the need to explain your self.
  3. Closing questions as duplicates when they aren't really duplicates, then reopening them, then closing them again, rinse, cycle, repeat is kind of an emotional roller coaster. I bet trolls enjoy it.
  4. The system is too restrictive - very limited rights to newcomers, to a point where it is discouraging. Ain't nothing about it that is welcoming. Cmon, just be honest and admit that it is not welcoming, and it is Ok.
  5. I don't know how content indexing is performed here, but the SO search is rather... underwhelming.
13
  • 9
  • 1
    And that is fine. Just be honest and admit it. SO is too restrictive, therefore to some people it may appear to be hostile. Just saying. Commented Mar 20, 2016 at 22:19
  • 1
    And btw, I stumbled upon this post, after I googled "why is stackoverflow so hostile", which in turned was caused by earlier SO encounters. I thought I had a valid answer to two questions, and one of them got downvoted and deleted by a moderator (I don't know why), the other one was downvoted also almost immediately, and I myself deleted it thinking I don't want to look stupid. So, yeah, SO is hostile. Commented Mar 20, 2016 at 22:27
  • 7
    It's impossible to comment on that without seeing what your answers were. Either way - SO is a big city; you can have good experiences here, and occasionally (unfortunately) also bad experiences. If downvotes and closevotes mean nothing to you but "trolling" (rather than necessary quality control tools that can sometimes provide valuable feedback for improving your contributions, but are very imprecise and can sometimes be abused) then SO may not be the place for you, though.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 20, 2016 at 22:35
  • 6
    By the way, the two essential actions on a Q&A site - asking and answering - can be performed by any user, regardless of how much reputation they have. That's worth noting. It would be really cool if the other actions could be unrestricted, too - and in the beginning, they were. The restrictions came as patterns of abuse emerged. Here is an attempt to explain the 50 rep comment barrier, for example.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 20, 2016 at 22:46
  • Hopefully in the future things will get better, but not until they get worse first. Commented Mar 20, 2016 at 23:16
  • 5
    SO is way too permissive honestly, which is its problem. It lets anyone who can type some words into a box submit a question. Or post an answer. It would be great if this wasn't the case...
    – enderland
    Commented Mar 21, 2016 at 19:34
  • That is exactly the elitist type of attitude, the us against them mentality, that is a problem for this platform in my subjective opinion. And it is ok, thank you for your honesty. You clearly don't think there is a problem, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, both sides of the argument. Wouldn't you agree? Commented Mar 22, 2016 at 21:23
  • For all y'all elitists who like to downvote things and think they are smarter than everyone else, don't like stupid questions and n00bs etc. etc. I have a PhD in physics, and I am not "anyone who can type some words in box to submit a question". In fact, just to give you a taste of your own disgusting medicine - I am probably smarter than you are, have higher IQ that you have, known more languages that you do etc. etc. And there, I did it, I had to stoop to your level for you to understand... Just kidding, you won't understand - I am positive about that. And I can say that I stopped using SO. Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 3:44
  • 4
    It has nothing to do with being smart. I'm no genius. It's about respecting that Stack Overflow has chosen to be more strict than other communities, we are happy with the decision, and it seems been a massive success. Not everyone is comfortable participating on those terms. That's fine: there are many other places online with looser rules for you to enjoy, without forcing you preferences on us. (I participate in some of them as well; it doesn't have to be one or the other, there's value in having different types of sites.) We're still happy to have you benefiting from the site as a reader.
    – Jeremy Banks StaffMod
    Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 4:17
  • It has everything to do with being smart, please. Of course it is about being smart... How, why, what? Why is it not about being smart? Is it about being stupid? I am somewhere on the autistic/genius spectrum and I can tell you that my experiences have been both somewhat positive, neutral and very very negative with SO. If I use SO anonymously as a reader - I like it - but I still don't like a lot of the comments and what I call "public shaming" of others. I don't want to engage in the community at all - and what I am doing now is just sort of venting... Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 5:31
  • And BTW, I am kind of hopeful - that the bullies will finally be gone... But not based on this particular thread... Please, do take time and read the comments/answers (not by me) and do explain why some of the answers here that are quite reasonable are downvoted so much... Just random explainable hope I have that it will get better... Commented Dec 3, 2016 at 5:35
  • Not agree with everything you said, but smoke = fire, definitively, yes. But they prefer to self-sabotage the community with denial. This crisis is the first one, but won't be the last one.
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:37
-27

Maybe if people were more interested in helping than in fixating on the format questions are written in, or the number of questions someone has asked. This place doesn't seem to be about helping so much as insulting people who ask for help.

4
  • 15
    This place actually isn't about helping- That's just a side effect. The goal of Stack Overflow is to be a repository of high quality programming questions. That's why there are people fixating on the format and presentation of the questions- They need to be helpful not only to you, the question asker, but also to future viewers who find your question in an attempt to answer their own. If that doesn't give you a good reason to worry about how well your question is written, consider this: The better formatted and presented your question is, the faster you'll likely get a good answer.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 14, 2015 at 16:39
  • 1
    If you're having trouble with your questions being received well, by the way, try reading through the How to Ask page in the help center. See if you can apply anything you pick up from there to your previous questions as well- If you make an edit, it will bump your question and get more eyes on it, and if the edit made the question higher quality, you can actually get upvotes for it. If the question is closed, a decent edit by you will throw it into the "Reopen Queue" which gives you a nice change to get it reopened.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 14, 2015 at 16:46
  • Given the "quality" of the responses I've seen, it would seem you missed out somehow. Impenetrable jargon, very dubious (mis)use of pronouns that make it almost impossible to figure out WTF someone is trying to say... assumptions that everyone is an expert so lots of important steps can be skipped...
    – WombatBob
    Commented Aug 19, 2015 at 11:26
  • "This place actually isn't about helping" Absolutely not. People don't have the culture here to try to guide the user when a question or an answer could be improved instead of being downvoted.
    – Quidam
    Commented Nov 24, 2019 at 5:38
-30

Create a canonical section geared towards "new" users.

It's a huge concern to the current community that some people don't look up answers correctly and just create questions without abandon. Why not create a section geared towards those users so they don't ever create a new question in the first place?

Many answers could simply be corralled into a nice corner--canonical answers could have a special incentive for editing and being basically written towards these "low-quality" users. Many canonical questions might also get answers or such. Creating such a body of work geared towards new users would cause very little change to the system--simply create incentive to write articles geared towards new users, and we now have a body of work geared to build up people's knowledge of programming, and even better, SO's style, demeanor, and quality standards.

Edit: Yes, that link to the meta question was very helpful. I'm closing this answer because the issue is correctly addressed in the other question. More people deserve to read it.

18
  • 3
    Why not create a section geared towards those users so they don't ever create a new question in the first place? but we have that - the "search" field to the top right. The problem is that people aren't using it.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:00
  • 7
    The problem with a section for 'new' users is that those that answer questions won't go there. So you only get inexperienced newbies answering these questions. What this'll lack is quality answers.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:01
  • 1
    The various communities already create canonical answers for newbies. Look at Asking the user for input until they give a valid response for example. The problem is that some users don't use search. And then complain that we were rude when we dupe-vote to close their question.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:02
  • 2
    @Pekka웃 Note that some programmers might not even understand what exactly they need to look for--they might not even know the correct search terms to look for. A "linking vs compiling" problem could be unknown to a complete beginner, and the terminology might still be too thick for one.
    – CinchBlue
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:02
  • 1
    There is also the site tour and the help center, complete with a first page with a checkbox you need to check to acknowledge you'll take the help offered to heart. But there is always a group of people that won't read those and not search and still complain loudly.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:03
  • @VermillionAzure: is such a user and/or question the type we 'want' on "a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers"?
    – Jongware
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:04
  • 1
    @MartijnPieters Why not formalize it and have it grow further? It seems like a good standard to adapt.
    – CinchBlue
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:04
  • 8
    @Vermillion re complete beginners - true, but the canonical answer to that is that they shouldn't be on Stack Overflow, they should be consulting with the basic teaching resource of their choice. Think of SO as a University; if you ask a grade school question at University, you will be asked to leave. Sometimes politely, sometimes no so much.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:04
  • 3
    We are fine with the not knowing the terms questions; they can be well written, and we then close those as a duplicate and they act as signposts for the next person searching. That system works just fine. :-)
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:04
  • 4
    @VermillionAzure: Because of the law of diminishing returns; the system has already been adapted and has already been grown. What you see then is a loud minority that refuses to see what is in place to help newcomers.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:05
  • @Pekka웃 But I must make the counter argument that even universities have been shifted to lower their standards to cater to the masses. There are sub-100-level classes (at least in the US) that exist to cater to these people. For some, they are necessary. Does this mean that universities shouldn't have sub-100-level classes?
    – CinchBlue
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:05
  • 2
    @VermillionAzure it means we as a community don't want sub-100-level classes. Because they don't work in a Q&A context and don't serve the site's main goal, to create canonical Q&A.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:06
  • 9
    There is a widespread and (in my mind) inexplicable belief, which is also stated in the Medium article you posted, that Stack Overflow somehow has a duty to be the home of programming-related questions if they don't have their own Stack Exchange site. This is, of course, patently false and unsustainable. We have a deliberately narrow scope and a high set of standards because the scale that SO operates at is enormous and things would fall apart otherwise. These are core beliefs that simply won't be compromised on. Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:19
  • 2
    @ChrisHayes I'd argue that something needs to be done, but now I see that SO just isn't the place for it. This has been a great discussion!
    – CinchBlue
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:20
  • 14
    I agree with the idea that things might be better in a global sense if something was done - that is, if somewhere on the internet there was a site catering to these types of questions. I just don't agree with the concept that Stack Exchange should be the ones to do it. A lot of the questions that lead to things like the Medium article are just plain not fit for a tightly focused Q&A format, and need a proper discussion board. (As an aside, I really appreciate your open attitude. Almost every question we get like this on meta goes extremely badly right off the bat.) Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 9:23
-41

I would do two three things:

  1. Get rid of downvoting on questions.
  2. Invest heavily in policing comments, perhaps by giving higher-rep users the ability to remove offensive comments directly rather than simply flagging them.
  3. Allow all users to see close votes so that downvotes are not needed to signal quality problems

I don't believe that downvoting of questions is materially important and it often serves as a mechanism for purely negative feedback, particularly for new users. I understand the value in removing bad questions but there are two strategies for that: removal and improvement. Downvoting is effective only at the first and we already have the ability to close and delete questions. Downvoting does not, at least with any real effectiveness, encourage people to improve the questions. Generally it only makes people feel bad about their experience.

In my experience comments on poor questions, while some help the asker by pointing towards resources or asking clarifying questions, generally fall into the class that I would call bullying. At the very least they don't move the conversation forward. I'd like to see this aspect of the culture change and I think it starts with a zero-toleration policy for comments that aren't helpful. Today I routinely flag these when I see them. I'd like to see it go further and emphasize how destructive these are by giving higher-rep users more ability to directly delete these - perhaps with some negative consequences for those whose comments are frequently deleted.

I recently had the privilege to talk to some aspiring developers about Stack Overflow. While they recognize and use Stack Overflow as a resource, their primary concerns were about being perceived as stupid and having a negative experience if they asked questions. You can not learn effectively if you're afraid to ask questions and for many new users, that is is the experience that Stack Overflow has become: fear.

I get the broken window theory - but if I can take the metaphor a little further - we also need to be concerned about the roving gangs of vigilantes who bully people, thinking that they are planning to break a window when they only want to look inside.

23
  • 7
    Not a fan of removing downvotes for questions; but I like the investing more heavily in policing comments. So much so I've talked about it twice on Meta. With that in mind, I get why you want downvotes removed; and I hope there's a way to bridge the gap between "Identify and destroy crap" (which we see a lot of) and "not penalize users who mean well but don't quite get it."
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:09
  • 4
    In terms of comment moderation on rude comments, my experience has been that abusive comments are very quickly removed by moderators when flagged. The "rude or offensive" comment flag queue regularly sits at or near 0 in the moderator tools. The problem would appear to be one of identification of rude comments and patterns of these, more than it is acting on them. Even if we let the community handle these, they wouldn't be able to move on them faster than we can. We either need to educate more people about comment flagging or have a better way of finding rude comments.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:20
  • 1
    @BradLarson partly I view the creation of the ability as a strong and public stand against such comments. It's not the comment itself per se but a culture that allows people to feel free to post them that needs to change.
    – tvanfosson
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:22
  • 2
    One way to do this might be to have a kind of comment review queue, similar to the various post review queues we have now. This would also help to identify spam comments (which slip through more frequently than I would like, and can live on the site for months until someone flags them). If done right, we might even be able to expand comment privileges to new users and remove the 50-rep barrier that frustrates some of the people commenting in the above-linked articles.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:22
  • 1
    how about we redirect downvote arrow from down to somewhere else. And change tooltip to something like "this post lacks just a little bit to be totally awesome"
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:25
  • 2
    @Brad Larson: With the kind of performance we're seeing from post reviewers I honestly don't think this is going to work well at all. I'm not even going to try to be sarcastic about it.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:30
  • @BoltClock - For all that we joke about it, review works incredibly well to identify spam, trolling, etc. coming in via new users. We all point at the places where it fails, but in the vast majority of cases, reviewers correctly identify spam when it comes in front of them. There is no such exposure to comments right now, so only if you happen across a post or are involved in it can you even have the opportunity to flag truly abusive content. I really do believe that more eyeballs on comments would lead to much better moderation here.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:34
  • 1
    @Brad Larson: Do you think users will be better at deleting comments than creating them? Also, if such a queue were made it'd have to be far better than what we have right now (which is poor at the one thing that matters: showing context).
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 14:36
  • @GeorgeStocker what purpose does downvoting serve that close votes don't? Is that worth the negativity communicated by downvotes?
    – tvanfosson
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 15:24
  • 1
    @tvanfosson I wish people voted to close more. We don't have enough of it. I wish we did. But I also wish we had better ways of getting OPs to fix the issues when their questions are closed. This is a deep problem, and it needs a lot of work to fix.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 15:31
  • Downvotes are anonymous, close votes are not.
    – qujck
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 15:33
  • 3
    Close votes don't signal quality (primarily), they signal scope and if it's on topic. Downotes signal quality (primarily), which isn't the same as scope or being on topic
    – random
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 15:38
  • 6
    Here's a thought experiment for you: what if instead of downvoting questoins, anyone (with some rep on the site) could close or reopen any question with a single vote? How would the experience differ for new users?
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 15:53
  • 2
    @tvanfosson How can a single close vote help a new user? They can't see the close vote like they can the downvote. You can't see close votes on your own question until you have 250 rep. What about the multitude of users with less reputation than that? For them, it's as Bradley's said: Even a single downvote warns them something's off. Until 250 rep, they need 5 close votes to know something's wrong, yet only one or two downvotes to get a message something's not right. (I assume at such a high rep for what I assume to be a while, you didn't realize that rep limit was a thing.)
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 7, 2015 at 19:19
  • 1
    @tvanfosson: Yes, those are the people who most need to see them. But they are also the people who need most protection from false signals, and who are most likely to react wrong to them either way, most likely by panicing or investing in a strong offense against those trying to help. Commented Jul 14, 2015 at 0:22

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .