89

I have just looked at this question, and the comment about the possible duplicate is hidden due to the number of comments. It is not even the case that the other comments have many up-votes.

More thoughts.... base on very usefull feedback.

What I think is needed, is that a new “possible duplicate of” comment is visible until other comments get a reasonable number of up votes AFTER the "vote to close" is cast. So maybe just give the “possible duplicate of” comment n+2 votes when it is created, when n is the number of votes the most up-voted comment has at present.

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  • 4
    The new up-votes on the comment seemed to have fixed the issue in this specific case but this seems like a good idea. Maybe the Community account can auto up-vote comments generated by flags?
    – BSMP
    Jun 15, 2015 at 17:07
  • 1
    Would one auto upvote be enough? Jun 15, 2015 at 17:08
  • I hope the comment has a flag on it to says it is "possible duplicate" comment, so then the logic that decides to hide comments can take it inot account. Jun 15, 2015 at 17:09
  • 40
    Maybe it makes sense to program it to always and automatically put comments generated by flags first, regardless of upvotes. A kind of "stickiness" common in fora and other places.
    – Dan Barron
    Jun 15, 2015 at 17:35
  • 1
    @IanRingrose In the case of lots of comments on questions that become very popular, probably not. It shows the top five comments, so if five comments have 2+ upvotes, then the +1 dupe link would still be hidden. It would need to be pinned to the top of the comment board.
    – TylerH
    Jun 15, 2015 at 17:36
  • 1
    Time should also be taken into account, if the most resent vote to close as a duplicate is MUCH older then the other comments (by days), then the other comments may be more important. Jun 15, 2015 at 17:37
  • 2
    Close Votes decay after 14 days, so 14 days sounds like a good time frame.
    – TylerH
    Jun 15, 2015 at 17:45
  • 1
    This sounds like a great suggestion- The only case I see this failing is when someone manually types a comment about the dupe first and prevents the auto-comment, but how often does that really happen?
    – Kendra
    Jun 15, 2015 at 18:08
  • @Kendra "... but how often does that really happen?" At least more often than you might think it does. I'm using it a lot, when I'm unsure to swing my c++ mjölnir. Jun 15, 2015 at 18:29
  • But in general I agree, that's a really great suggestion. Jun 15, 2015 at 18:31
  • I don't think there's a special flag behind those auto-comments. I think it is just the text that matters (because I remember that I've deleted some of these comments, re-posted them and they disappeared when the question got closed as a duplicate). Anyway, I would like to see them pinned.
    – TLama
    Jun 16, 2015 at 15:44
  • It might be a good idea to have a separate "Related questions" list?
    – AJF
    Jun 16, 2015 at 16:22
  • @AJFarmar There's already a "linked" questions list that shows you questions that either link to the one you're on or are linked by the one you're on. These links can appear in the question, the answers, or any of the comments and still show up in that section.
    – Kendra
    Jun 16, 2015 at 18:47
  • What about a comment responding to the close vote comment saying something like "No, that question deals with technology X, but this question is about technology Y. It's totally different"? Should those be sticky too?
    – JDB
    Jun 19, 2015 at 14:26
  • 1
    @JDB, if your questions are that clear, then you can just ignore the single dup vote, as they will just get a lot of "do not close" in the review queue, some as now. Jun 19, 2015 at 16:45

4 Answers 4

12

I really like this idea, and reading through the comments I think a lot of these things can be put together.

Dan Barron suggests we "pin" (so to speak) these comments to the top of the list, which would be helpful. Kendra pointed out that this might not work if the user manually types a dupe comment, and TLama mentioned that there may not be a special flag, but just noticeable text.

Would it be an appropriate suggestion to have all comments of the form "possible duplicate of: [SO link]" pinned to the top of the comment list? This way we are able to accommodate both the auto generated comments and comments typed manually. The difficult part here would be verifying that a valid StackOverflow question was linked. Do you think this matches what you'd like to do?

Playing devil's advocate, though, this allows any user to type that comment and have their comment pinned, and this ability can be abused. As an alternative, could we have all "possible duplicate of: " comments automatically generate a duplicate flag by that user? This way user's can't just run around and type comments like that, and maybe a check can be done to reject those comments if the user's have raised enough flags already.

6
  • The typed manually comments I mentioned, I was more thinking comments like: "I think this has come up before at [link.] You should check it out, as I believe it answers your question because [reasons]." Followed up then by a flag/vote to close. (I mentioned it because I've done something very similar on Meta several times, and while flagging in some of those scenarios did not generate a comment, at times they also didn't have the comment auto-deleted upon dupe closure. That would mean the system is and is not picking it up as a "possible dupe" comment.)
    – Kendra
    Jun 16, 2015 at 16:11
  • @Kendra Ah, I understand. In that case, wouldn't it be on the user then to decide? If they're unsure of a duplicate, and they don't want to waste a flag, then they can take an action like that (leave a loosely worded duplicate comment). If the user is fairly confident it is a duplicate, it should be their responsibility to take the appropriate action. However, I agree with OP, users who are confident of duplicates and flag it as such should have the auto generated questions pinned for other users to see, so they know to consider it and vote if necessary.
    – AdamMc331
    Jun 16, 2015 at 16:15
  • I'm not at all talking about being unsure. Just a customized message the flagger posts before they flag a question as a dupe, which sometimes simultaniously counts as a "possible dupe" comment, and prevents the auto-generated comment, and yet doesn't, and therefore doesn't get deleted after closure.
    – Kendra
    Jun 16, 2015 at 16:27
  • Oh okay. I didn't know that these customized messages can also prevent the generated comment, that's an interesting point.
    – AdamMc331
    Jun 16, 2015 at 16:30
  • 1
    I don't think it should be a hard pin, what if the dup comment was a few days ago, and there has not been anther vote to close, but there are other comments with a LOT more upvotes? Jun 16, 2015 at 21:59
  • Well wouldn't that dupe comment disappear in 14 days or so anyways, when the close vote expires? (I think someone mentioned that in the comments to the question)
    – AdamMc331
    Jun 17, 2015 at 13:24
9

Duplicate Comments are Just One Part of the Conversation

You've not explained why "possible duplicate" comments are any more important than other kinds of comments. Why is a comment asking for clarification or providing additional context (that may render the "duplicate" link inaccurate) less important?

The value in the comment being auto-generated is to give the author a chance to respond, perhaps explaining why the "possible" duplicate is not, in fact, a duplicate.

Suggested Duplicates are Often Incorrect

Consider the not-insignificant volume of wrongly identified duplicates. For example:

Should every class have a virtual destructor?

this question is not a duplicate of the first question you list which is specific for abstract classes and I reference the second one in my question, I don't think this is a duplicate is that the question is strongly biased towards having vritual dtors an I wanted a n open discussion.

How do I find duplicate entries in a database table?

Read it more closely. This is not a duplicate.

Not a duplicate at all. He wants to find the duplicate rows (and more that that), not to remove them.

Python - why use "self" in a class?

no, it is not a duplicate.

Huh? The other question is asking why we need to explicitly pass self. This one is asking about the difference because class and instance variables.

That isn't the same question. I even looked at that one before asking it.

68282 is a useless question about why you have to explicitly put self as the first argument to methods; this question asks about the difference between class and instance members.

Feel free to check out more examples here: https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/edit/327710

"Sticky" Comments are Ripe for Abuse

This really gets us back to the whole discussion about whether or not questions should display "This question may already have an answer" banners. The general consensus, as I've understood it, has been that these kinds of banners (or pinned comments, which amount to the same thing) provide too much room for abuse and give too much "power" to a single user.

Consider this situation:

  1. Question X becomes hot due to Reddit or the Multicollider.
  2. Bob sees question X but wants attention for his (unrelated) question Y.
  3. Bob casts dupe close-vote on X with destination Y.
  4. Much of the traffic pouring into X is now redirected to (unrelated) question Y.
  5. Tons of nasty comments from confused users over why the banner is there for an unrelated question Y.

Yes, this type of abuse would warrant severe moderator consequences. But unlike vandalism edits, this banner cannot be removed (by normal users).

So you're allowing a single user to do so much damage that cannot be reversed without a moderator.

Duplicate Questions Already Have Plenty of Visibility to Relevant Users

Voting to close a question as a duplicate enters that question into the close queue:

enter image description here

In addition, users with enough reputation to vote to close will see that someone has voted to close the question:

enter image description here

Why does the comment need additional visibility?

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  • 1
    I would expect the person that asked a question to read ALL comments, I do not expect this from someone that has the same problem, the person may not even be a regular stackoverlfow user. Jun 17, 2015 at 17:29
  • The question that led me to raising the issue, had lots of comments with no upvotes Jun 17, 2015 at 17:31
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    @IanRingrose - I've seen LOTS of users attempt to close a question as a duplicate of a question that has nothing to do with the OP's question. How is redirecting a random internet user to an irrelevant question helpful? Once the question is actually closed as a duplicate (meaning its reached the necessary threshold to indicate that the recommended question is actually a likely duplicate), then it's appropriate to highlight the duplicate question.
    – JDB
    Jun 17, 2015 at 17:32
  • 1
    Duplicates also add the flagged duplicate to the right-hand linked question list.
    – Joe
    Jun 17, 2015 at 18:07
  • 1
    Why do we have those comments in the first place? If the action of voting to close as a duplicate was important enough to SO that they felt they should automatically generate a comment, then I would suggest that there is some importance to those comments. Otherwise, we shouldn't have them at all.
    – AdamMc331
    Jun 17, 2015 at 20:06
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    @McAdam331 Yes. Without them, the question asker doesn't get any indication at all about the existence of the possible duplicate until the question is actually closed. That means that they have no chance to clarify or to argue that their question isn't really a duplicate, and no ability to skip the wasteful process of the question going through the review queue by self-closing as a dupe. But the comment is primarily valuable to the question asker, not to random passers by. The passers by will get to see the duplicate clearly once the question is closed... if it's actually a duplicate.
    – Mark Amery
    Jun 17, 2015 at 20:36
8

We looked at implementing this, hoping it would be a simple change that would offer some benefit. But, apparently it is not simple. Changes to comment rendering rarely are.

Which leaves the potential benefits... This would only affect posts that have numerous - more than 5 - comments, and only really matter to people who can vote to close them. Hard to guess at the latter, but the former I can calculate: at best, this would affect roughly 22% of page views where these comments are present. That's assuming these comments are always hidden: if they're upvoted, they may not be, if they were posted early, they may not be.

That's still plenty of evidence of a problem to be solved, but perhaps not solved in this manner. If this was easy to implement, it'd be worth doing just for the fraction of cases where it'd help, but... It is not.

This is yet another reminder of the rough edges present for both long comment threads and duplicates: the logic used for picking comments in the former is naive, the design for exposing the latter to those that would benefit from it a hodgepodge of ideas from different eras and reflecting different philosophies. Both could use a serious overhaul.

5
  • What if community upvoted the duplicate comment enough when it was made, so it did not start of being in the "hidden state"? Jun 29, 2015 at 22:51
  • So, this? Yeah, that should be do-able.
    – Shog9
    Jun 29, 2015 at 23:19
  • 1
    I think by "community" @Ian means Community (heh, that name ambiguity again). I.e., give "potential duplicate" comment an automatic upvote when it appears. (I'm not sold on this approach: this somehow lends extra support to the duplicate claim, which after all may be wrong.)
    – user3717023
    Jun 30, 2015 at 1:46
  • I like my interpretation better... ;-)
    – Shog9
    Jun 30, 2015 at 2:27
  • 1
    @Ian: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/218295/…
    – Shog9
    Aug 17, 2015 at 17:05
4

Hell no to this.

My attempts to flag incorrect "possible duplicate" comments have always been declined; as far as I can tell, the mods are extremely reluctant to clean these up. And things get incorrectly labelled as duplicates reasonably frequently.

The last thing we need is to privilege such noisy, harmful comments such that they will always be visible and push other comments that may have actual value out of the way.

If a "possible duplicate" comment has value and you want it to be visible, upvote it. There's no reason it shouldn't have to compete for visibility like any other comment.

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    Why would you flag a comment like that, and what do you expect the moderator to do about it? These comments are automatically generated, so I can't see any possible way they'd be breaking a rule of SO.
    – AdamMc331
    Jun 17, 2015 at 20:03
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    @McAdam331 I'd flag them as 'not constructive', because they're not. Flag comments aren't only for things that break the rules - if they were, we wouldn't have... most of the comment flag reasons, actually. Only the "rude or offensive" reason is for a rule violation.
    – Mark Amery
    Jun 17, 2015 at 20:06
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    Most of these comments are automatically generated. If StackOverflow felt they weren't constructive, then they wouldn't do that. I would expect the moderators to feel the same way.
    – AdamMc331
    Jun 17, 2015 at 20:09
  • 2
    @McAdam331 Well, if you're right, that's just all the more reason not to privilege these comments. A comment linking to some crap, unrelated question that some idiot has flagged a question as a duplicate of shouldn't be able to crowd out a worthwhile comment, and if we're not going to ever delete incorrect duplicate comments, then forcing them to compete for visibility is the only way to ensure that they don't.
    – Mark Amery
    Jun 17, 2015 at 20:25
  • @TinyGiant "all users who flag questions as duplicates are idiots" - where on earth have I assumed that?
    – Mark Amery
    Jun 17, 2015 at 23:09
  • "some idiot has flagged a question as a duplicate"
    – user4639281
    Jun 17, 2015 at 23:13
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    @TinyGiant Your interpretation of my comment is absurd. In the sentence you've selectively quoted from, I'm explicitly talking about people flagging totally unrelated questions as duplicates. If I were to say "It's right that we have downvotes so that when some idiot answers a question completely incorrectly we can indicate that they are wrong", would you selectively quote "some idiot answers a question" and claim that I assume all question answerers to be idiots?
    – Mark Amery
    Jun 17, 2015 at 23:17
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    @TinyGiant "Questions are flagged as duplicates and then edited to be less of a duplicate all the time." - again, that's explicitly not the situation I'm talking about, so what's your point? Yes, duplicate flagging can be used correctly and usefully. Literally nobody in any answer or comment here has disputed this fact, so why are you bringing it up as if it somehow refutes the claim that duplicate flagging can also be used incorrectly and unhelpfully?
    – Mark Amery
    Jun 17, 2015 at 23:21
  • @MarkAmery I don't think it was an absurd interpretation. You make it sound as if most duplicates are incorrectly flagged.
    – AdamMc331
    Jun 18, 2015 at 18:55
  • @TinyGiant - Your assumption is that all contributions are useful. Dilbert disagrees (and so do I).
    – JDB
    Jun 19, 2015 at 15:54
  • @TinyGiant the ratio of closed to not closed questions flagged as duplicates is almost completely irrelevant to how we should deal with "possible duplicate" comments. Questions that have been closed as dupes get the duplicate banner; privileging the comment there is redundant. What matters is the proportion of duplicate comments on non-closed posts that point to actual duplicates. And I strongly suspect that most do not, since flags on real dupes usually lead to the question getting closed.
    – Mark Amery
    Jun 20, 2015 at 19:52
  • As for your fixation on how horribly unhelpful it is for me to refer to a hypothetical user as an idiot, well, I'm very sorry that such terribly off-colour discourse caused you such offence that you felt the need to call me, an actual made-of-meat and not-hypothetical person, "idiotic" for it. I'm sure you have a very good explanation in your mind for how that stance is perfectly consistent, which I'm not especially interested in.
    – Mark Amery
    Jun 20, 2015 at 19:59
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    Go ahead, insult contributing users. That is totally constructive.
    – user4639281
    Jun 20, 2015 at 20:37
  • @TinyGiant "Go ahead, insult users. totally" well that's not a very nice thing to say...
    – James
    Apr 9, 2018 at 1:01

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