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Right now the is (mis)used for three different things:

  • The all popular CSS preprocessor LESS.
  • The opposite of more and command line tool less
  • A gem called less-rails.

This should not be happening. And there's a simple way to fix it. Burning and blacklisting [less]. The other three tags more or less exist.

  1. through without excerpt, is immediately obvious what the questions should be about.

  2. existed, but was merged into for some obscure motive (which seems counterproductive, since it makes the unambiguous tag, ambiguous)

  3. and for the command, I'm thinking on using or through is advisable to figure out if those questions are on topic or not (also, less isn't specific to *NIX environments, so [unix-less] is out).

Anyone has another suggestion?

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  • 2
    @Harry added "blacklisting", so the tag isn't created again.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 17:28
  • 5
    It looks like you're just trying to push your personal flavors hiding them with pseudo-reasonable rationale. Do you really believe 96% of Less language Q&As marked as [less] are not enough to capture the tag? (i.e it's clearly a command-line tool should be pushed out. And less-rails is no more than just one of the hundreds Less tools out there to not be involved in the decision at all). Commented May 7, 2015 at 17:31
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    This is crazy "destroy the village to save it" territory. Whatever minor confusion might exist today, burning this tag isn't going to make it better.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 18:13
  • 4
    @Braiam It would be so if you have not aready started to edit the tags behind the scenes. Commented May 7, 2015 at 18:22
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    @seven-phases-max: Ehm, sry, but that's completely off-the-wall. Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:17
  • 2
    @seven-phases-max not sure what you are getting at, both are the same question.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:23
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    @Deduplicator be honest: do you have any evidence of someone other than Braiam being confused by this tag?
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:10
  • 3
    And that confused... Who, exactly?
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:21
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    I don't see any use at all for a tag for the less command on Stack Overflow.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:36
  • 3
    @Braiam: That would be the false dilemma fallacy. I'd recommend reading up on folksonomies which is what tags are.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:46
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    @Braiam, rather than cherry-picking your data points, can you provide evidence that the percent of users who can't figure out the less tag is higher than the percent of users who can't figure out other obvious things, like say markdown syntax. Picking out 10 or 20 posts out of thousands seems statistically insignificant to me.
    – zzzzBov
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:53
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    As with most things on this site, it's a hybrid approach, @Deduplicator. That said, most tags are applied by ordinary people - folks asking or editing questions. We don't have a dedicated group of taxonomists here to carefully create and apply tags, nor would such a thing be feasible. Therefore, tagging must take its lead from the terms that make sense to those using them; splitting hairs over potential ambiguities when in practice the majority of users understand full well what a tag means is a pointless waste of time and potentially harms future tagging.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:02
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    No one is saying less (the command) is off-topic, @Braiam. Merely that, in practice, on-topic questions about it are exceedingly rare; those that require tagging moreso. Let's keep scope creep to a minimum.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:03
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    To the best of my knowledge, @Braiam, the less command is not commonly used programatically - it is, after all, intended as an interactive utility. If you can find evidence to the contrary, that would make a useful addition to the discussion here - but failing that, I'm not really convinced this even needs a tag.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:17
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    @Shog9: Lots of tools want output paging but don't want to implement their own pager. Traditionally you do that by piping to $PAGER if it exists, more if it doesn't. Which, on most modern systems, means you're using less programmatically, if not directly. And sometimes you do want to pass along arguments (especially -s)… although you usually wouldn't want to pass anything that POSIX more doesn't specify.
    – abarnert
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 23:05

3 Answers 3

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I see no evidence of real confusion or ambiguity here. Yes, less is also the name of a Unix command; that's mostly irrelevant here. IDE means something else in other contexts too, but the tag is still clear.

In the context of Stack Overflow, less refers to a language for generating CSS. We don't need awkward tags to clarify that; it's already obvious. Don't try to make the site uglier by pushing for some horrible name spacing scheme when it isn't necessary.

Please re-read When to burninate - particularly the bits where I recommend using the Related Tags sidebar to help identify the meaning of a tag:

Those are the related tags for . There's nothing about Unix there. Even if you expand the related tags and search the full list, it's clear that web development is far and away the most common use here. Yes, there's - but guess what, that's still related to the Less language, in this case the use of it with Rails. Just like the PHP tag relates to using Less with PHP.

You're not new to this. I know you've read that guide before - but even if you hadn't, there's a pop-up that links to it when you post a question here with the tag. Starting this discussion without doing proper research on the tag you recommend burning is careless; starting to actually retag the questions without waiting for others to weigh in is down-right irresponsible. Please do not do this again.

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  • 4
    I don't understand what's so bad about disambiguating something? I mean, what's there to lose here? Couple hours that we could be procrastinating? I only see gains.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:23
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    @Braiam, don't rename less to css-less unless you're prepared to also remove sass and rename it to css-sass. Might as well go all in and rename bootstrap to js-bootstrap and django to python-django along with many many others.
    – zzzzBov
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:30
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    Really? You don't see what harm comes from disallowing the name everyone uses in favor of your awkward synonym, just to avoid a mostly-hypothetical problem? Figure it out.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:30
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    @zzzzBov is sass ambiguous? is django ambiguous? yes? Then by all means rename them, otherwise no. There are three things in three context sharing the tag, and it isn't intermediately obvious
    – Braiam
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:36
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    @Braiam, the less description makes it immediately obvious and abundantly clear what the tag is used for. I don't consider it to be even remotely ambiguous.
    – zzzzBov
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:44
  • @zzzzBov read my link, please? People don't read tag excerpts/wiki.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:45
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    I think that depends on what you do as a programmer. I'm personally at least 2-3 orders of magnitude more likely to ask about the less Unix command (or less as a mathematical concept) than less CSS. Which is true for anyone who isn't a web programmer (the majority of us). Commented May 7, 2015 at 21:05
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    Irrelevant, @Gabe. Ask yourself, are you more likely to ask a question about the less command, using the less tag, than someone who works with the less preprocessor? (to date, you haven't)
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 21:48
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    @shog9 yes, if I asked the question I would assume that's what the tag was for, because 99 percent of programmers have never heard of less-css. The idea that it would be for some tiny css tool is relatively ridiculous. So I would 100 percent tag any question I had about the less command line tool with less Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:06
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    That's not what I wrote, @Gabe. Here's the reality: in the (unlikely) scenario you'd ever ask a question about the less command on Stack Overflow, you'd use the less tag for it. Meanwhile, in the daily occurrence of someone asking a question about the less programming language on Stack Overflow, they would also use the less tag. So we have the potential for you to be confused in a scenario that stands a really good chance of never occurring, or the guarantee of someone else being confused in a scenario that happens constantly. You see where I'm going here?
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:09
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    @Shog9: Because you added those related tags, I did a quick search... and the less not lesscss questions don't have a unix tag or such: stackoverflow.com/q/1053707 stackoverflow.com/q/1254726 stackoverflow.com/q/2336745 stackoverflow.com/q/4229790 stackoverflow.com/q/6376360 (Something else: stackoverflow.com/q/3585443) Not saying whether those are good or not, that's not what I looked for. Only looked at the last 20 active questions here: stackoverflow.com/… Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:11
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    See, that's the kind of research I'd hope to see before considering burnination, @Deduplicator! Keep going - so far, I'm seeing a trivial number of questions in these related tags.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:13
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    @Shog9 Actually, most of the questions tagged less+ubuntu are about installing the CSS pre-processor or running the command line version of it, lessc. Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:22
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    HA! Well, that's even less evidence of a significant use of less-the-command then, @this
    – Shog9
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:29
  • It's difficult to find those less-questions which were untagged earlier, like stackoverflow.com/q/831681 Maybe there's a way with SEDE to compare past and current tags??? Looking for them at the moment... Commented May 7, 2015 at 22:30
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Disclaimer: I follow the tag only because of its usage for questions about Less the CSS pre-processor and hence my views could be a bit biased even though I have tried my best not to be.

I can see that Shog9 and seven-phases-max have already provided their suggestions/views on this topic (and there seems to be a lot more people agreeing with Shog's views than those opposing). However I feel that I owe an explanation because I am the one who rolled back your re-tag (the trigger point for this question) and also clarify on my comment (which admittedly was posted hastily last night).

The reasons for rolling your edit back was:

  • There was no prior community consensus on a switch from to . However, I understand your point that a consensus was assumed to be in place because there were no/less opposing views in the previous thread earlier.
  • Starting to re-tag questions tagged with to on one fine day without doing anything about the tag with the ambiguous name will only cause more confusions than solutions. For instance, the new tag will never show up on the auto suggested list of tags unless its popularity is higher than . Considering that has around 4.25k questions, we are a long way away from achieving this.
  • Users who don't know the system well would probably choose the tags displayed to them by default (read as ) and those that know the system would probably be confused and tag both the old and new ones because both indicate usage for Less CSS questions. Even if we do a mass migration of Less CSS questions to , there is absolutely no guarantee that a new user wouldn't add again unless it is blacklisted.

Considering the above points, if there was a consensus to move away, then the wise option would have been to remove totally to avoid confusion before proceeding to re-tag.


Now coming to the burnination request itself, the following are the points that I understand should be considered before doing it:

  • Is the tag name ambiguous? Yes, in my view the name is ambiguous because it could refer to a lot of things.
  • Has it caused any confusion to even warrant a discussion? Probably yes, because there have been cases where UNIX (or Pager) Less questions have been tagged with (irrespective of how minimal the actual count has been).
  • Can the same tag be used for two different things by combining them with another tag? Not in this case because Less the CSS pre-processor and Less the UNIX command are completely different. There are some tags (like ) where this is possible because they can be used in combination with other more specific tags (like CSS or SVG etc). That is because a linear gradient probably has the same meaning in all those. For Less Rails, this model should be enough (that is, or and )
  • Does the tag describe or attempt to describe its usage? Yes, it did. Initially the tag excerpt and wiki specifically indicated the usage of this tag for Less the CSS pre-processor. Currently, it has a statement about Less the UNIX command which is causing a bit more confusion.

In an ideal scenario, I would still say that I prefer , etc because they leave no room for ambiguity. However, let us consider the below points before proceeding further:

  • How much confusion has the usage of for Less the CSS pre-processor caused to users having questions on Less the UNIX command? I have been very active on the tag for atleast a year now and I have hardly seen more than 25-30 UNIX Less questions be tagged with it in the first place. That is, even before I or others have removed the tag.
  • How much percentage of questions do we get on an average for Less the UNIX command? Based on comments and analysis by some of our fellow folks, it is very low compared to questions about Less the CSS pre-processor.
  • Is it easier to create a separate new tag for the UNIX command ( or ) and re-tag questions relating to that topic? Yes, because the no. of UNIX questions with that tag is vastly low compared to the other. Even if there is a wrong usage in future, it is easier to re-tag the UNIX questions to the new tag because the volume of such questions is less.
  • Can we do anything about the to indicate that it should not be used for Less UNIX questions? Yes, the tag wiki and excerpts are there for this purpose. While it may not be very clear for new users to understand the usage, it is easier for experienced users to guide them and re-tag the smaller volume of questions. Also, users don't have to follow a link and go visit another page to find the difference, the overlay pop-up with the excerpt can be modified to make the usage clearer. On that note, I support this feature request of yours.

Considering all the above, my suggestion is to leave the for Less CSS questions and have a separate new tag for Less the UNIX command (if required). This is not a question of one bowing down to another (or) about which is more powerful than the other. Consider it more like a User ID where it doesn't matter who you are or how powerful you are, if an ID is taken by somebody else already we proceed to create a different one for us (maybe a bad analogy but you probably get the point that I am trying to make).

We have traveled too far down the alternate road to even think about going back. It is a lot of work and cost for very minimal returns.

5
  • And you noticed that I rehashed the discussion, including you guys, so there's a clear consensus over the matter. I don't feel bad about the rollback, in fact, I was more like "paving the way" rather than "actually doing the grunt work" since I needed to know exactly the extension of the problem (right now, the tag sometimes can be confused with rails, the tool, and the preprocessor). As what are the merits of my proposal, notice that even if you decide to do nothing, there are stray questions using the tag for things they are not meant to. This needs to be solved, and is part of the first...
    – Braiam
    Commented May 8, 2015 at 13:02
  • ... operative actions within my post (the ordered list). About your worry that the tag, whichever the final name be, wouldn't have the impulse after the renaming, are covered, since the synonym system would automatically make you and whoever follows the less tag, follow the new tag, tag suggestions would be the same. I think is on everyones best interest that: the less community has a tag which is their own; the rails community don't confuse the less tag; and the less tool had some tag to ask their questions if needed, while making that each community don't step on anyones foot.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 8, 2015 at 13:22
  • Well, there is an alternative to just relying on the tag-wiki: Making a synonym from [less] to something unambiguously CSSy, like [less-css]. Whether that's a good idea, seems not to have been discussed yet. Commented May 8, 2015 at 14:11
  • @Deduplicator: Not a bad idea. But the thing is [less] would still exist and UNIX command questions could still get tagged as [less] and may indirectly get mapped again to [less-css].
    – Harry
    Commented May 8, 2015 at 14:28
  • @Braiam: I am not against your ideas mate. If we were starting from scratch, I would have 100% agreed with you. My point is more on RoI and I don't see any reason for people to feel bad about this. I would have said the same even if it was the other way around (but then it is probably more easier to say that now).
    – Harry
    Commented May 8, 2015 at 14:31
2

Edit: fortunately I don't need any "answer" anymore since the answers above are enough to cool down all that retagophilia.

(Not deleting this though to keep its comments).

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    If the synonym was the other way around, with css-less being the master, maybe. Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:09
  • @Deduplicator Yet, again, the synonym was less-css. How can you guys pretend to be unbiased if you simply have no idea of what you're talking about? . Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:38
  • @Deduplicator Links tend to be changed with time. Language names stay. Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:41
  • 1
    For the question what the tag [less] means, whether it's properly css-less, less-css or lesscss is unimportant. I concede I might have inadvertantly turned them around, but how is that important? Not at all. Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:42
  • @Deduplicator OK, I've got your point - you just decided to push your personal vision no matter what. If it's just UNIX less command for you then it should be the same for everybody else. Period. No need to toss you pseudo rationales anymore. The idea is clear now. Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:56
  • Where do you get that idea? I'm just against you throwing that one out. And especially against having an answer to a (maybe clumsy) disambiguation question pretending only one of the meanings, the one you like better, existing at all. Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:00
  • @Deduplicator By the fact how you and five more people [there] contributed nothing under less decided to change it judging for everybody else. Obviously Less language is totally less known thing in general compared to shell less command. But now please tell me, is there any less-command manual or so that has link to stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/less? github.com/less/less.js (the mother repo of the Less) has it even before its own issue-traker link. So you're just going to invalidate the link many people used for years for a ghostly reason of disambiguation... Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:11
  • Yet again, just count number of corresponding questions under the tag and judge yourself. One man just came and complained that he personally is confused by it - and boom! to fix one man's confusion you're going to push out <put your own number here> SO members. Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:17
  • @seven-phases-max can we move on the discussion of "who has more questions on the tag" please? There are users out there, that isn't intermediately obvious what a tag means, or how it should be used. You aren't loosing anything with making this change. What's so bad that makes you resist?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:27
  • 3
    @Braiam and you do it again: your + 6 people opinion against hundreds (if not thousand+) asking about Less-language in less w/o any special training. So the problem is of course in those hundreds and not in those seven, right? Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:34
  • Perhaps we should remove all information about the less linux command from the less tag wiki to reduce ambiguity then? Currently the tag displays "It's also a unix command to display a file."
    – Mario
    Commented May 8, 2015 at 1:17
  • @Mario: You are welcome to do so, just find all questions about the pager and retag them to an appropriate tag too. I'm not sure there is currently such a tag though, and that will take effort... Commented May 8, 2015 at 1:48

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