166

Maybe it's just my bad luck, but I just saw two winners in a row:

These are both from new developers who have little or no idea about the basics of the C# programming language. I mean, they seem to have figured out that statements are ended by semi-colons, and they know there are different kinds of object, but I'm not sure how much more they know than that.

Now, before the great and powerful 100k+ user is accused of elitism and forgetting where he came from, here's where I "came from":


I entered Worcester Polytechnic Institute in September, 1975. At the time, I had never seen a computer. My major was Life Science.

On the way to meals, I would notice these people congregating in a particular area over to the side of the way to the cafeteria. I became curious, and learned that these were programmers hanging around computer terminals. I started looking over their shoulders, and reading the printouts from some of the terminals, and found that some of it was understandable (it was COBOL).

I eventually annoyed them enough that one of them told me to go down to the Computer Center and sign up for an account. After I did that, I asked him what I should learn, and he pointed me to Algol. The rest is history.

So, notice that I was self-taught when I started to program. I didn't even have any Computer Science courses until I was a sophomore, by which time I already knew how to program. I had already lucked out and got my first job in computers the previous Spring Break.

But notice also, that I started out by reading a book.

Now, "kids these days" have this thing called "The Internet", so they don't need any stinking books. The only problem with that is that the stinking books started from the assumption that you knew little, and built up your knowledge, layer on layer. Constants, to variables, to statements, to flow of control, to subroutines, to recursion.


Enough of memory lane. My point is that I think that many of these people cannot be helped by a Q&A site. They don't need to ask questions - they need to go read a beginner's book. Not a tutorial!

I propose that we close questions like this with a new close reason of "You have no clue" (or something more polite), and direct these people to some online resource which will actually teach them the basics of the language they are interested in.

We can then welcome them back and answer their questions about when to use an array vs. a list - by closing it as a duplicate most likely, but at least they will have enough of a clue to benefit from the Q&A format.


New one:


Slightly different, but still: I just answered a user who didn't know what a class library is. I think we've got a problem here.


This one doesn't know about foreach loops.


This one doesn't know how to catch exceptions. Has the user really never seen a try/catch block?

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  • 94
    I agree. This is specifically why I miss the "minimal understanding" closing reason (despite the fact that it may have been abused at times). Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 2:56
  • 3
    Also related: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/253473/…
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 3:12
  • 3
    COBOL did some good thing? WOW! Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 4:44
  • 20
    @MartinJames: COBOL did many things right, given its audience. In my case, things like ADD 1 TO COUNTER. made me realize that computer programs could be understandable and not some magic thing that only math majors could do. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 4:54
  • 32
    Beginners books are overrated. You can easily get all that (and more) from the internet. But of course, not this part of the internet.
    – user555045
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 8:07
  • 8
    Completely agree. I saw a question yesterday where the asker was asking how to call a method. Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 8:07
  • 18
    @harold Physical dead-tree books are certainly on the way out. However, the sort of content they provide shouldn't be. Some people may be able to learn from a language spec and a manual, but I'd say most people require a take-me-by-the-hand introduction to programming. If the internet can provide this, great.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 8:30
  • 14
    Over on main-meta, this question got closed as site-specific. It contains this suggestion which I like: " Something like: This question needs more help than we can provide." [etc]
    – AakashM
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 8:50
  • 3
    @AndyNewman An hour? How about a week? An hour is better than nothing but it's unlikely to be enough for a complete beginner to understand variables, methods, THE FACT THAT THERE'S MORE THAN ONE POSSIBLE ERROR SO DON'T JUST SAY I GOT THE ERROR...sorry, where was I?
    – user146043
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 13:47
  • 5
    @gnat: it's often very clear what help they need - they need to learn the fundamentals of C# (or whichever language/technology they're asking about). They need to receive an electric shock every time they copy/paste code that they don't understand. That would teach them! Commented May 1, 2015 at 21:52
  • 7
    @MillieSmith: your dad taught you. The problem is these people need someone or some thing to teach them. They can't just come here and ask questions when they will not understand the answers. Commented May 2, 2015 at 1:32
  • 6
    ... these are DIY people, like the DIY people who say "tsst I can put down my own tile floor" and then puke a mess of tiles and improperly mixed mortar on the ground, but instead of living with it, they try and coax someone into fixing it for them. They don't care about the technique, they don't care about the science, they just want the end result and everything in between be damned. People are not stupid by some physical limitation, it's a willful decision.
    – user562566
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 1:56
  • 6
    I'm not quite ready to see this closed as a duplicate. We've begun to discuss the use of some sort of Stack Overflow-official online course or tutorial to serve as a foundation of knowledge for users like these, and I'd like to see where that goes for a few days. Commented May 2, 2015 at 3:03
  • 5
    As a wise man once said, "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you." Commented May 2, 2015 at 17:25
  • 4
    @AndyNewman: "Something you can read end to end in an hour." Let's not propagate this nonsense notion that programming should or could be learnt in just an hour. Why is everybody in such a hurry? Half the problem here is that youngsters are lazy and rushing now. Nobody seems to want to learn any more; they just want to do... or have someone else do for them. Commented May 2, 2015 at 19:43

6 Answers 6

89

As I recently wrote:

You don't ask "How to fly from New York to Boston?" on Aviation.SE. Everyone would look at you funny and ask you what your real question is, because clearly this can't be a serious question a pilot would pose. Whether you categorise that as too broad (because where do you start to answer that?) or unclear what you're asking (because clearly we must be missing some context here) is primarily opinion based.

In other words: I agree. Stack Overflow simply doesn't work for questions like that. We expect and in practice require a certain minimum amount of knowledge; or at the very least an awareness of a lack of knowledge (stage 2 or higher: conscious incompetence). It's okay to not know something, that's why questions are posed in the first place. Even a lack of the most basic knowledge can be okay if the question is formed around this lack of knowledge.

Meaning, a question along the lines of "How to write a loop?" could and should be answered by a book instead of SO, but could potentially be a worthwhile and answerable question. Simple, yes, but quite clear and straight forward. However, "I've copy-n-pasted together a bunch of code and it don't work and I have some vague XY problem?" is in no way productive and answerable to anyone.

In practice you can probably close such questions as too broad [to answer correctly in detail]* or unclear what you're asking [since you yourself have no idea what you're asking]. Bringing back the minimum knowledge required close reason is a slippery slope, because people tend to misappropriate close reasons for all sorts of things, and "minimum" cannot be quantified enough to make it unambiguous and fair.


* To expand on "too broad" as a reason: we're trying to promote best possible programming practices here. The goal should always be to provide an answer which solves a given problem the best possible way a professional programmer would in real life. Many code-don't-work questions are so far away from that ideal solution that it may be possible to fix their immediate issue by altering a few lines, however a professional programmer would still never be seen dead with such code because of caveats too long to list. If the path from here to there and the necessary explanations would greatly exceed a reasonably scoped answer, the question is probably too broad.

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    "I've copy-n-pasted together a bunch of code and it don't work" -> 3 out of 5 questions on the android tag. And I'm pretty sure we could say the same for quite a few more high traffic tags.
    – 2Dee
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 8:17
  • 7
    @2Dee isn't "learning on the job" fun?
    – badp
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 8:36
  • 14
    @badp I suppose it usually is, unless you ask the guy who pays for the job getting done :)
    – 2Dee
    Commented Apr 30, 2015 at 8:48
  • 1
    There actually was a question within the last couple months asking how to make code repeat. The word "loop" apparently was not in the asker's vocabulary, though.
    – VGR
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 13:24
  • 1
    @VGR That's just... wow. That person must have never picked up a book, tutorial, documentation or even just read other people's code... O_O
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 13:25
  • The text of the close reasons has had no impact on how I vote to close. I used to "misappropriate" minimal understanding; now I misappropriate too broad/unclear. Commented May 1, 2015 at 13:38
  • @David Sure, but I do think phrasing is important to keep everything within the right bounds. It is more encouraging to close as you just don't get it when a thusly named close reason exists. Too broad IMO does require a bit more impartial judgement.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 13:44
  • "We expect and in practice require a certain minimum amount of knowledge" If only! "or at the very least an awareness of a lack of knowledge" Yes, this possibly explains all the "noob here" prefixes (that needs an auto-filter!)
    – user146043
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 13:51
  • 4
    My favorite aren't the people who don't know what a loop is, but who think they do. There was a Python question a few days ago from a guy who wanted to know how to "do recursive" without his function calling itself. At first I thought he was looking for something tricky, but no, he just didn't get that there was any link between "calling itself" and "doing recursive"; his teacher had asked him for a recursive solution, he assumed he knew what that meant, and he was wrong.
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:05
  • @abarnert: I think a user like you're describing can be helped. He at least knows what a function is, and what it means to call a function. The answer to his question is pretty much, "recursive means a function calling itself, directly or indirectly", along with one example for the direct, and one for the indirect. We don't need to teach him what a function is, what variables are, what data types are, that 1 is different from "1", etc. Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:42
  • 2
    @JohnSaunders: He can't be helped until you can figure out that, whatever he thinks "recursive" means, that's not it; until then, his question means something entirely different from what it says, which makes it pretty hard to answer. Sure, he's a more advanced questioner than a lot of other people, but that doesn't mean he's a better one. (There are people who ask terrible questions about expert-level things, and people who ask great novice-level questions; it may not be the form, but it definitely happens.)
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:48
  • @abarnert: users who don't know what they need, or who think they need one thing, when they actually need another, are an everyday occurrence on Stack Overflow. If there were one official book, then the user could at least say which chapters they had read, and what they didn't understand. "The book" might even include tests of comprehension. Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:58
  • 1
    An alternate defense of the "Too broad" reason for these cases: The asker's knowledge gap is so wide that filling it could fill several chapters of a book (like the kind of book used in basic programing courses). This fits in well with the definition of "Too broad."
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 4:20
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    @falsarella I remain pessimistic but wish you all the best with it anyway.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 21, 2015 at 12:05
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    @falsarella Pessimistic that such a proposal would actually fly and become a useful resource. If all the "bad" questions from SO would accumulate on that site, as an "expert" I wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. On the other hand, all the "newbs" who will congregate on that site who currently feel ostracised by the SO community would have fun giving each other advice, but whether this will turn into a high quality resource is questionable IMO. But who knows, maybe this will be the "saviour of SO"; or its demise (because of user drainage).
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 21, 2015 at 12:12
42

I would also like to see some standard way of closing clueless questions, especially when the question is basically, "I don't have a clue where to start. Please help."

I found this thread after seeing this question. Hovercraft Full Of Eels left a very nice comment for OP explaining how to get a clue. While it was more work on Hovercraft's part than the question deserved, this kind of guidance to new users is, I think, quite helpful in improving their future contributions (if any) to SO.

I don't think the stock close reasons of "too broad" or "unclear what you're asking" do the job. They leave OP with no clue—not only regarding their original problem but now also about what exactly was wrong with their question. A generic close reason (perhaps a variant of "too broad") along the lines of "break down your problem into pieces, try something, and then if you're still stuck post a question about something specific" (patterned after Hovercraft's comment) would, I think, be in order. Perhaps it could also include a polite version of RTFM.

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    You could always point them to this post as well: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/284236/… Not quite RTFM, but tries to explain what you are talking about. Commented May 1, 2015 at 0:41
  • @BradleyDotNET - Yes, that is quite a good discussion.
    – Ted Hopp
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 1:30
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    One problem is that the HFOE comment, or similar, has to be repeated ad-nauseum for amost every incompetent newb who posts. Not understanding the need to decompose complex requirements into simpler, muchable steps is not just a problem for budding software developers, it's a symptom of someone who cannot solve any problem with a solution more complex than 'hit it with a hammer'. People with such a mindset should not try to develop programs. Commented May 1, 2015 at 12:05
  • 2
    I wish I could upvote this twice.
    – That1Guy
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 13:52
  • 1
    @MartinJames: I think this answer's new close reason would solve that problem. First, by having HFOE's comment in a close reason, you don't have to repeat it. Second, even if (as you imply) the vast majority of the people who get closed for such a reason are simply incapable of learning how to think like a programmer, it'll at least chase those people away so they're not our problem.
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:58
  • 1
    related: Where to start?
    – gnat
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 20:00
  • 3
    @gnat - That's a good description of what's wrong with the "where do I start?" kind of question. Perhaps a stock close reason like I'm proposing could include a link to that (or similar) extended guidance to newbies on meta. (That post is on the wrong meta, but this could easily be remedied.)
    – Ted Hopp
    Commented May 3, 2015 at 1:18
  • meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/6366/… :)
    – gnat
    Commented May 3, 2015 at 6:48
  • I like that line of thinking. I think that a good suggestion would be creating a Stack Overflow Learners site, and then migrate those type of questions to there (where it should possibly be on topic). That's just like the two English sites: one for experts and one for learners.
    – falsarella
    Commented May 20, 2015 at 21:39
15

I don't want to talk about the completely clueless users who say "i don't know pearl and i found this pearl cod and it doesn't do what i want what shud i do???" Those are easy, unless you want to get into the same old argument about whether we can come up with a way to insult them until they go away without being insulting.

The real problem is the people who have some knowledge, and who are clearly trying, but don't know enough to ask their question properly.

For example, a Python novice who hasn't learned about classes yet, who's trying to understand where the self comes from in some function call, isn't an idiot, or a help vampire. He just needs to either (a) go learn about classes, or (b) accept that this code is beyond him until he has time to go learn about classes.

That's fine. And you can (if you're feeling helpful) write a comment giving him a brief idea of what he's missing out on and point him at the right tutorial chapter. But you can't answer him. Any answer that would be useful would not be an appropriate SO answer. Despite the fact that it's not a stupid question.

So the question obviously needs to be closed. Either that means stretching the "Too broad" reason into something it's really not meant for, or using a custom close reason that's equivalent to the one the community decided to get rid of. What else is there?

14
  • Great answer. I don't know Python, but please tell me: is there some "basic" slice through Python that builds, concept on top of concept, and leads to enough information where the user you're talking about would be able to understand the concept of self? I can imagine such a thing for C#. I'm imagining a "course" that's not "Python 101", but rather "Python 001", or maybe "Python 021". A hypothetical course that would bring the student to the point where he could ask questions that we could answer. Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:35
  • Now, I'm dreaming here, but if there were such an online course for some of the topics on Stack Overflow, then maybe we could point such users at the course. We could then offer them the necessary concepts, in a manner that builds, layer on layer. We could then accept questions like, "I just read Chapter 1, and I don't understand how a=a+1 works. Those might be questions small enough for us to answer. Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:38
  • @JohnSaunders: Well, at the theoretical level there is no such slice because self is way too fundamental to Python… but from the practical level, yeah, I think there is. It doesn't show up until Chapter 9 in the official tutorial, after all.
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:42
  • 1
    How does one sufficiently explain self to a person who doesn't know what a Python class is, in a way that isn't "too broad" for an answer on Stack Overflow? In other words, I don't think it's such a stretch to close a question like that as "too broad". The person, however unwittingly, has simply asked for too much information all at once. Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:42
  • @JohnSaunders: Meanwhile, there are a small handful of online books that something like 3/4ths of the novices all seem to use, so they already do often say "I read chapter 7, and…" I suppose if everyone knew all of the books, we could just say, "Oh, that's covered in chapter 10, either read ahead or wait until you get there"…
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:43
  • 2
    But @peter, I think we need to say something like, "you know so little about this, that to answer your question would require us to teach you a course, so your question is too broad" Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:43
  • @JohnSaunders: Yes, that's exactly why I think it's stretching the meaning. The question does actually have a specific, narrow answer, but that answer would be useful to the OP, or to anyone else asking the same thing; a useful answer, on the other hand, would be way out of scope for SO. So, is that "too broad"?
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:44
  • @abarnert: Well, now we're getting somewhere. Information on these "level 001" books could be placed in the tag wikis. We could direct users there, and tell them, "come back when you have a specific question, or when you don't understand the online book". I have no problem answering questions about online books, assuming I don't have to pay for them. Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:45
  • @JohnSaunders: but in that case, isn't it equally valid to say simply "to answer your question would require us to teach you a course, so your question is too broad"? I mean, the answer to the question is self-evident to someone with the necessary background; it's redundant to say the person themselves has too little knowledge, as the question can be judged as "too broad" in and of itself. Alternatively, a person could just give the "not too broad" answer and see if that's judged the answer by the questioner. I just think it's poor precedent for a close reason to denigrate the questioner. Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:47
  • @JohnSaunders: But that requires everyone who wants to answer Python questions to know all 4 of the books that 70% of the people are using, and everyone who wants to answer Haskell questions to know both of the books that 70% of their people are using, and everyone who wants to answer Java questions to know all 317 books that 70% of their people are using…
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:49
  • 1
    @JohnSaunders: Also, even when I'm feeling helpful, I try to point people to the official tutorial rather than guess which book they're using. That's already enough work to use up my good will. :)
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:52
  • @abarnert: to be honest, I'm wildly speculating on the possibility of the Stack Overflow community either somehow collaborating on the books. I don't know how this would work. It's the earliest of speculations right now. And again, I mean for "the book" to be linked to by the tag wiki. Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:56
  • @JohnSaunders: Well, the official Python tutorial is open documentation, so the SO community could already be collaborating on improving that. And the same goes for Ruby, Haskell, and many other languages. (ISO-committee-driven languages like C++ and corporate languages like Java are an exception, but let's ignore that for the moment.) But I don't see any reason to expect that to start suddenly happening, unless someone puts in a lot of time as a vanguard and then charismatically and forcefully evangelizes the idea to the rest of the community.
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 3:01
  • @abarnert: this is all speculation, but I have previously given thought to the idea of a tutorial that has a narrower purpose than the official tutorials. Not to try to teach all of Python, just enough to teach the minimum necessary for some "copy-and-paste" type to understand the answers to his questions. Commented May 2, 2015 at 3:05
15

While it is true that close reasons need to be as objective as possible, and that means evaluation of the question, not the asker...

... that does not mean that polite personal advice cannot be provided at the same time that a question is being closed.

Experience has taught us that it's a lot easier to keep that advice polite if our users, tired after a long day of work and coming to volunteer their free time anyway, can select from some prewritten templates.

Therefore, I suggest that we have some community-approved system-integrated advice paragraphs which can be appended to the close reason by means of a checkbox. These do not become reasons for closing questions, one of the main reasons still needs to apply. But they will meet the goal of helping "lacks sufficient understanding" users by giving them pointers on what they can do to improve, even though StackOverflow will not be a part of that process.

One of them might read something along the lines of:

The wording of your question shows that you are confused about basic concepts. The good news is that this is completely fixable. You can read a book or online tutorial, take a course, or find a tutor to help you learn. The bad news is that these activities are outside the mission of (site name). In our effort to be the best Q&A site on the Internet, we have chosen to focus on Q&A only and not do tutorials, online courses, or individual teaching. The other good news is that the Internet is a big place and there are sites which do a good job of these things, many of them for free.

The major problem with "lacks insufficient understanding" was that it gave no hope. I believe that we can give hope while at the same time very firmly saying, "This is the wrong site to get the kind of help you need. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here."

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  • 3
    Ben, this is great, thanks. I think we should also try to include a link to the tag wikis. The tag wikis can then try to include the "absolute beginner" resources at the top. Commented May 2, 2015 at 17:50
  • 2
    Hey, this isn't bad! Commented May 2, 2015 at 19:39
  • Not only is that great help text, but referencing Closing Time in a discussion about close reasons also made me smile. Commented May 2, 2015 at 23:57
  • @JeffreyBosboom: Glad someone else got the joke.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 3, 2015 at 3:41
  • I like this wording. I leave a tag-specific comment along these lines occasionally: "If you're just starting out, asking broad questions like this on Stack Overflow is not the place you need to be. You should find a good book or a series of online tutorials. Have a look at Good resources for learning ObjC. The Big Nerd Ranch books are excellent, and lots of people like the Stanford iOS course on iTunes U. Good luck!"
    – jscs
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 19:49
  • Unfortunately, the responses vary from silence to the equivalent of "shut up and answer my question". But I'm still hopeful that the silent ones maybe used the link.
    – jscs
    Commented Nov 23, 2015 at 19:50
13

I empathize with your concern. I'll skip my background except to mention I learned to program in a different environment but still with significant similarities (it was around the same time as you, but I was in grade school and so lacked the peer group and computing resources of a university). I do agree with your concern about students not having a good handle on things like doing basic research and learning independently (but I don't know if I feel that way because things are worse now than they used to be, or because I'm just turning into a curmudgeon).

All that said, I'm not seeing where the need for a new close reason is coming from. Indeed, all three of the questions you mentioned have been closed, with what is IMHO a reasonably suitable explanation (I was even involved in closing one of them).


Most of the "you have no clue" questions fall into the "too broad" close reason. That is, what the person is asking for is a detailed tutorial on some language or framework feature, a question much better answered through documentation of some sort. They presented their question well enough, but it just requires too much hand-holding to provide a decent answer here.

Some of them fall into the "unclear what you're asking" category, such as the one I helped vote closed yesterday. In that case, the OP probably does need to lay a better foundation of language knowledge, but it's hard to know for sure whether their question is unintelligible because they lack that knowledge, or simply because they failed to present a legitimate question in an intelligible way.

I know I have my suspicions. But that's not evidence or proof.

There are people out there who are plenty smart, but have incredibly poor communication skills. Heck, they might even be a good programmer (however unlikely), but for whatever reason cannot present a question in a clear, logical, methodical way. Telling them they need to learn more about the language when what they really need is more practice communicating is likely to be frustrating to them and unproductive.

Similarly, even some of the people who do have good communication skills are (at least at times) lazy, and haven't done enough of their own legwork before asking the question. This also leads to questions that are "too broad".


One thing I really like about the close reasons as listed currently is that they focus on the question, not the questioner. It may well be the case that for many of the "unclear" or "too broad" questions, there's a fundamental problem with the questioner. But it's hard to know for sure and as human beings we are all saddled with the tendency to jump to conclusions.

I think it would be far too tempting and easy if one of the close reasons were simply "you have no clue", and it would send the wrong message. The question itself is much more open to objective evaluation, and while some questioners may still take downvotes and closures personally, there is at least a plausible rebuttal to that. Not so much when you are literally telling the questioner it is they who need improving, not the question.


IMHO, we would be better served by having more detailed documentation of the existing close reasons in the help topics. I would expect the topics What types of questions should I avoid asking? or What does it mean if a question is "closed" or "on hold"? to provide more detailed help along these lines, but they don't. They barely document the reasons with more detail than the blurb provided in the close dialog and notice.

Given that the need for the questioner to narrow or clarify the question may stem from their own need to do more research and possibly gain more competency in the language, platform, etc. it might be worth expanding on the explanations of those close reasons, to describe that as one common root cause for questions of that nature.

This would allow a questioner the option of self-reflection and to consider the possibility that they need to work on their own knowledge. Of course, not all will. But then it's not clear that they would even if we more directly delivered that message to them anyway, even assuming we could get that right 100% of the time (which seems very unlikely).

2
  • 2
    I like your point about the close reasons focusing on the question. But I think that, although that's a good thing in general, it's the problem in this case. When the problem is that the questioner doesn't know enough to ask the right question, or to understand an answer if given, that really is a problem with the questioner, not the question. No matter how much work they put into trying to improve the way they've laid out their information and phrased their question, it's still not going to help.
    – abarnert
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 2:55
  • 2
    FWIW I do think it's good and necessary to focus on the question instead of the questioner too. That's what keeps SO professional and impartial. The person is judged indirectly by the quality of their contributions, not directly by whatever we think we can infer about them.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 13:02
-11

I'm going to take a different approach here. This isn't to say that I don't agree with your philosophy, and this isn't to say that I don't think that such users are indeed beyond our reach.

What I'm saying is closure isn't the right vehicle to get through to these users. They're going to trip the question ban threshold before they can effectively participate here on Stack Overflow.

How many times have we seen a user that has asked one too many poorly researched questions and have been question banned? They were beginners trying to figure out the best way to get an answer to their question, but in their search for the best solution, they missed the forest for the trees; they didn't stop to consider that their approach was fundamentally flawed. No, this isn't something that we can fix unless we really want to commit to it, but a close reason certainly doesn't fix this either.

I'm not going to state that questions that are from utter beginners shouldn't be dealt with in some way, but the "dealing with" part is really the tricky part. A closure message of any kind would be received as entirely hostile and elitist, regardless of what intentions you had going in to it. It's going to create another divide between users of this site, and serves to further perpetuate the elitist vibe that we've seen to gain over the years.

So I'll propose an alternative.

If you don't want to deal with the question, don't. Downvoting it is sufficient.

Downvoting a poorly researched question is sufficient to deal with questions of this caliber. We shouldn't have to close the questions too since the system will happily clean up questions that the community has deemed crap.

Not just that, but we don't block the users who actually do want to invest the effort into guiding beginners along. While some of us (myself included) don't believe it's worth the effort to have to explain the basics of programming, there are some out that that would happily do so. And honestly, if the answer that they give is superior to the question posed, then everyone benefits from the new knowledge.


I suppose my point here is that you really shouldn't deal with questions that you don't want to deal with. My whole effort in terms of "cleaning up" is simply to downvote those questions which are poor. That's all that we should be doing, in my opinion.


To address some of the comments:

  • I'm entirely in favor of cleaning up entirely beginner questions.
  • I am staunchly opposed to a simple close reason expressing nothing more than, "Go away until you can understand what you're asking."
  • We've been down this path before with close vote reasons. There's no nice way to put "you should go study before you ask a question" in a close vote.
  • The main takeaway from this is that I respect that we have a zeal for quality here, but downvotes are sufficient enough to get the message across about the quality of the question. There is no close vote reason that can convey the same message.
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  • This is not the kind of question I'm talking about. I mean the kind where the OP doesn't know what a List is. Or, where the OP doesn't have the concept of calling a method and passing a parameter. I include the kind where the OP doesn't yet know enough of the syntax to get his code to compile, but I admit I don't see many of these around. Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:14
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    The problem isn't just users that don't know the syntax, it's also that there are people that still want to help. I'm trying to incorporate both sides here; closing and deleting a question that's completely rookie that got a stellar answer hurts everyone involved.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:17
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    No, sorry, I don't believe it. If the user has no understanding of the language then all we're doing is giving them more code to copy, paste, and not understand. I have no intention of "enabling" such users. If I even find a way to teach them, fine, but just providing them with more code is a bad idea. Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:19
  • I don't disagree with your sentiment at all. But that's really not what I'm getting at here. What you describe is a problem that's available at the professional level too. No close message in the world is going to stop someone from wholesale copy and paste. If the question is really crap then it should be downvoted and purged by the system. But if you are you honestly trying to fix the whole copy and paste issue, then you're looking to solve an impossible problem.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:24
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    "They're going to trip the question ban threshold before they can effectively participate here on Stack Overflow" - That's the point, as it stops the user from filling the site with more crap. Downvoting without closing would just increase the amount of questions they can post before hitting a ban (or sometimes stop them from being banned at all), which is not a good thing IMO. I don't believe they will "effectively participate" if they're spoon-fed either. And if people want to "invest effort into guiding beginners", they should start by explaining what kind of questions are accepted on SO.
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:34
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    @l4mpi: So I'll start with two issues. First, I feel that the question ban is an appropriate thing to have on a site as big as Stack Overflow, chiefly because there is a lot of crap that we want to prevent. The main issue I was drawing attention to was the earnest yet foolhardy user that wants to participate on Stack Overflow, but gets met with tons of flak and trips the ban inadvertently. Second, "guiding beginners" is always one of those moving targets to do well, and my feeling is that we don't want to come off as know-it-all jerks when giving them that guidance.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 20:44
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    @Makoto: I deny that these are "beginners". They are not at the beginning of a process of learning. They are not trying to learn, and we can't be the ones to teach them. These are like children who should not be allowed to play outside of their back yard until they know what a "street" is and why not to get in front of a moving car. They need to be told to go away and learn some basics first. Commented May 1, 2015 at 21:55
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    @Makoto: I wish I could think of some way to teach these people, aside from giving away "C# 001" books to all of them. But whatever helps them (if anything), it needs to be off of our sites. These are Q&A sites, not "teach me enough to understand what I'm looking at so that I could maybe ask a Q and get an A" sites. Commented May 1, 2015 at 21:57
  • @JohnSaunders: Not once have I disagreed with your sentiment. However, I have disagreed with your method of approach. The main issue is that a close reason will not convey the kind of message that we want to really address this issue.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:28
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    @Makoto: you are misunderstanding me. The message I want to convey is, "go away and come back when you know enough to ask a question and understand the answers." Commented May 1, 2015 at 22:31
  • @JohnSaunders: I'd argue that you could convey one of those messages but not both at the same time. I stand firm on my view that a downvote is plenty to deal with questions like this. If your intent is honestly to shoo away potential users of the site regardless of their skill level, then I think it's misguided and not attacking the actual problem, which is a lack of understanding.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2015 at 23:33
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    @Makoto: because the question can never be answered in a way that will even help anyone, it should be closed and deleted. But first, I'd love to find a polite way of saying, "go read a book". Commented May 2, 2015 at 0:26
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    There are places where people will provide step-by-step tutoring to beginners. StackOverflow is, by design, not one of them. Stack Exchange is all about problems which can be posed in a single answerable question and do not require teaching in an ongoing back-and-forth format, nor a book length tutorial.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 17:12
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    Just like the existing close reasons are about the question, not the person, answers are also expected to be addressed to anyone curious about the same question, not the OP. That rules out individualized teaching.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 17:14
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    @Makoto: It's because OPEN = "acceptable content for this site". Problems requiring individualized teaching are not acceptable for this site, and therefore should not remain OPEN. Since you are against closing, are you suggesting going directly to deletion? Your answer doesn't say so, it says "we don't block the users who actually do want to invest the effort into guiding beginners along. While some of us (myself included) don't believe it's worth the effort to have to explain the basics of programming, there are some out that that would happily do so." Which needs to happen ELSEWHERE.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 2, 2015 at 17:18

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