-80

I think that Stack Overflow needs to implement some method for a system of checks and balances to prevent members from down-voting legitimate questions. This has progressively become more of an issue over the past few years.

What's to prevent a perfectly legitimate question from being downvoted because:

  • The readers are not at a competent level of understanding and feel the need to see some code when it really is not a requirement for the question; or b
  • Because the reader's interpretation of the policy of what constitutes a valid down-vote may not be correct; or
  • Simply because the reader can?

When you post a question on Stack Overflow, you're subject to having the question reviewed for certain inaccuracies for intent purposes, such as ensuring that it is posted in the correct area of the site, checking whether a similar question has already been asked, etc. That being the case, why allow members to vote haphazardly on the questions?

Don't get me wrong; some actually deserve downvotes as they clearly go against the stated policies on the site; I am speaking more specifically for those questions that are clearly explained, well-defined, exemplify that research was done and still get down-voted with no reasonable explanation.

I think that this is becoming more of a problem as time progresses and that there should be checks and balances at work to ensure not only that the question meets posting standards, but also that down-voters are also placed in check, because it takes away from the pleasant experience that I've come to appreciate on this site.

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  • 41
    The system would first need to be able to identify what constitutes a "legitimate question".
    – BoltClock
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:18
  • 3
    People can vote (almost) however they want. Barring serial voting (and other gamification voting), you can upvote or downvote anything for any reason. This request is totally against the spirit of SO.
    – ryanyuyu
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:20
  • 11
    "...vote hap-hazardly on your questions?" Who said the votes are hap-hazard? You might know the reason for them, but that does not mean the downvoter did not have a legitimate reason, or a reason they felt legitimate, for downvoting your post. "...it takes away from the pleasant experience..." "Pleasant experience," if there is one when you're here, is only a side effect. The goal here isn't to make everyone feel special and important, but to collect high-quality questions and answers related to programming.
    – Kendra
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:27
  • 7
    Do you have an example question where you see this happening?
    – TZHX
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:29
  • 13
    You have a very low esteem of the SO users that visit posts like yours. Why on Earth are you wasting your time here? Go find a forum where the "professionals" hang out. Apr 22, 2015 at 15:29
  • 5
    @Mark no, that only explains what is on-topic. Downvotes are like comments: this is unclear, not useful or lacks research
    – rene
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:29
  • 5
    @Mark: Being on-topic is not the only important part. It also has to be a good, non-duplicate and wellpresented question. And how do you want to evaluate all those criteria automatically? Write the AI for it and you'll get rich fast. Apr 22, 2015 at 15:30
  • 9
    Mark, just because you feel your contributions are high-quality doesn't necessarily mean they are. If your posts are receiving a number of downvotes, maybe you need to reevaluate them and see if you're missing something. If you still feel you aren't missing anything and feel they are high-quality questions and belong here, then feel free to ask for clarification as to what can be improved, if anything. Now, I'm not saying your posts are bad. Really, I haven't even looked at them. What I'm saying is that as humans, we often perceive our own works as high-quality regardless if they actually are.
    – Kendra
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:32
  • 2
    @Mark downvotes are a way of expressing an opinion. Multiple votes, up and down, combine to form an overall picture of the (at least partly subjective) quality of the post. Just because you disagree with another user's assessment does not make it incorrect, and should not invalidate their vote.
    – jonrsharpe
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:40
  • 4
    @Mark also, you comment on the question that inspired this: "Seeing the downvoter's weren't professional enough to give reason for their actions." The idea of forcing comments for down votes has been discussed many times, and rejected. See e.g. meta.stackoverflow.com/q/261173/3001761
    – jonrsharpe
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:44
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    Might consider your proposal if it also includes provisions for preventing people from upvoting turds. That would help with quality control.
    – Mat
    Apr 22, 2015 at 15:47
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    Of course everyone thinks their question is clear, well written, on-topic and very valuable because they want an answer. Your CSS question of an hour ago, 7 - now 8 - readers find it wanting in some way (probably too broad or opinion based). Since it is not just 1 or 2 or even 3 DVs, consider just for a moment that perhaps they do have a legitimate reason. Apr 22, 2015 at 16:04
  • 3
    @Elltz The main reason for downvotes on this question, actually, is most likely disagreement with the feature-request. Voting is different on Meta, often being used to show agreement or disagreement with the premise of a post, especially with feature-request posts.
    – Kendra
    Apr 22, 2015 at 16:24
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    And, as always, people want to apply more barriers to downvotes, but allow upvotes as always. Here's the thing: downvotes are arguably more important than upvotes. And any suggestion that doesn't apply the barrier equally is very much opposed, as it skews the quality metric. Think about applying this exact barrier to upvotes; sounds silly, doesn't it? Same thing for downvotes. Apply it to both, or you get a false picture.
    – fbueckert
    Apr 23, 2015 at 2:51
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    No, the message isn't simply for you. It's for future readers. It's to tell them that this post isn't worth their time. And that's why comments aren't needed; the downvote itself is important enough for it to happen without needing to do anything else. If comments were needed, voters would downvote a whole lot less. And, again, apply the same thing to upvotes; you have to comment if you upvote. Figuring out whether a post is worth reading or not is important enough to not try to make voters do more.
    – fbueckert
    Apr 24, 2015 at 11:49

3 Answers 3

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Let's look at two things here: Why this would be a bad idea, and why this would be hard to implement.

Bad Idea

Downvotes are, like upvotes, an integral part of the quality system here on Stack Overflow. Upvotes are a signal that a post is helpful, well researched, interesting, or otherwise high-quality. They are a signal to other users saying, "Hey, this post is worth looking at."

Downvotes, meanwhile, are also signals to other users. They signal a post is unclear, not useful, wrong, not well researched, or that it doesn't belong on the site. Downvotes on a post are saying, "Hey, there's something not quite right with this content." This lets other users know to avoid that particular post, if they are searching for answers to their own problems, or to stop in and verify what's going on with the question in the case of users trying to moderate content.

These signals aren't just for users reading the posts, however. They are also signals to the poster of the content being voted on. Upvotes tell the OP, "This is what we like to see on the site. Try to keep posting content of this quality." Downvotes are an even more important signal to the OP, however. They say, "Other users feel this isn't up to standards. You should review your post and fix it up if you can."

If we limit downvotes on posts in any way, we limit the signals that we send to users. Not only that, but this may cause an adverse reaction: Users will be less likely to upvote. If downvotes are limited, upvotes become far more important in determining the quality of a post. Users may decide to upvote only the absolutely perfect gems of posts, and not upvote posts that are just good or great.

Hard to Implement

I imagine two ways to try to implement this restriction, if it were decided to implement it: Automatically, and manually through moderators and potentially high reputation users.

If the automatic route were taken, we would have to attempt to find a way to objectively measure how "legitimate" a question is. What would factor into this? Would the question simply have to be well written, with proper grammar? Would the question just have to have been made out of a need for an answer, with the OP having a serious problem? What defines a "legitimate question" for the sake of limiting downvotes? These questions would need to be answered before we could even begin to implement an automatic restriction on downvotes.

Alright, so what about having moderators decide? Well, we have very few moderators, and the site receives thousands of questions a day. It would not be a viable solution to have moderators, or even 10k and 20k users, go through each and every question posted to the site in a day and decide if they are worthy of being downvoted or not. This would also be prone to the human element, as votes already are, and chances are would not end up changing much in the way of how votes are down now. People have varying opinions on what should be up/downvoted, and there's a good chance that their opinions, going through this process, will still lead you to be unhappy with how your questions are being voted.

Conclusion

Really, this is just not going to work out very well as proposed now. It would be hard to implement, and could negatively impact the quality signal of the site. If your questions are receiving downvotes, your first step to stop them should not be to complain or think that they are not legitimate votes, but instead to step back and take a good look at your questions. Are you sure they're following the site standards? Should you maybe double check the How To Ask page in the help center for ideas where you might have gone wrong? Are there any comments asking for more information, clarification, or code? If there are, can you address these in a timely manner?

Don't take downvotes personally. They aren't meant to vote on you, the user, but the content you have posted. Just because you feel your post is gold doesn't mean others see it that way. It can be hard, as humans, to admit that something we've created isn't as great as we originally thought, but sometimes, you just need to take a step back and consider it from another person's view. If you still feel that your questions are up to standards and don't know what you could have done to earn the downvotes, ask for help. Leaving a comment to the effect of "I've reviewed my question and don't understand the downvotes. Could someone give me some insight so that I can improve my question?" could very well get you the information you need to fix things and start receiving upvotes instead.

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why allow members to vote hap-hazardly on your questions?

This is how the Stack Exchange network works. Users can vote on posts. Users gain the privilege to upvote before they can downvote. This is intentional. It shows users that we value rewarding good contributions. But, the downvote is useful too. It indicates a post is wrong, unclear, off topic, or not appropriate for this site.

You should be able to vote however you want within reasonable guidelines.

How do you define reasonable guidelines? My definition is probably different from your definition which is probably different from each of the other users on the site.

Better yet, how do you tell the system what "reasonable guidelines" are so that you can prevent users from voting? I argue that you can't. No system will be built that can say with complete accuracy what is and is not a reasonable question.

You should be able to vote however you want. You can with the proper reputation level. There should be no other conditions on how I, or any one else, votes.

Clearly this is becoming more of a problem as time progresses and there should be checks and balances at work to ensure [...] that down voters are also placed in check because it takes away from the pleasant experience that I've come to appreciate on this site.

Be Nice is a policy, but votes don't indicate niceness. They indicate the quality of a post. Limiting a user's ability to cast votes saying "this is not a good question/answer" limits the future use of such a post. It turns Stack Exchange into a forum of years past. A user's pleasant experience doesn't mean that quality of the site has to drop.

What's to prevent a perfectly legitimate question from being down-voted ...

Nothing, other than a voter's reputation level. That is how it should be. This site is moderated by the community. If the community decides that a post warrants downvotes (or upvotes) then so be it. The community help control the quality of posts here via up and downvotes.

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    Indeed; if we could build a system that could accurately judge votes for legitimacy, we wouldn't need voting at all.
    – jscs
    Apr 22, 2015 at 18:43
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First, I commend the professional responses from an objective and NOT personal perspective. I can accept reasonable explanations as to what and what is not feasible. Thank you for that! But I still believe that there should be a way to provide a "reason" for a down vote instead of arbitrarily making that decision. And even more over if the intent is to facilitate towards actually helping. Arguably, both of your points are well taken as to this concept being potentially subjective not only for the poster but for the voter as well as to what constitutes a well formed question. But if you down vote a post, it would be a simple professional courtesy to provide a one line or two reason for why you came to the conclusion. That I believe is a very attainable task from a development standpoint.

You down vote a persons question, then have a dropdown list box with a list of reasons as to why the question for some intent reasoning not well formed or lacks some expectations otherwise.

This would at least allow the poster to revise their question based on the reason of the down vote. Very simple and concise, nothing fancy. But it does provide 2 things that are currently missing.

  1. Something for the user posting the question to review and potentially revise their question based on the feedback.

  2. Alleviate the guesswork as to why someone casts a down vote

As it stands, I've received 6 additional down votes to one of my questions since posting here at Meta for a total of 9.

None of those 9 have provided any constructive feedback to assist in my effort for an answer; (of which at this point I'm no longer interested in anyway) But the post I've made here @ Meta has some very personal inflections in the comments. So how do I know that any of those who made the comments here didn't go back and down vote my question??? Obviously I don't know and cannot intelligently make such a claim; but it doesn't mean it cannot happen.

Whereas, if you cast a down vote and provide a short explanation or something to actually provide assistance; I think it would be better.

After all, everyone is indeed entitled to their opinion; but shouldn't it be professionally motivated? After all, this is SO; not Jerry Springer. ;-)

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  • "Obviously I don't know and cannot intelligently make such a claim" That right there is a good step for you- I've seen a lot of people on Meta accusing specific people of downvoting them. As for your suggestion for a dropdown or such on downvotes, similar proposals have been made and shot down. Since you seem to be seriously considering this and taking the points that have been made into consideration, I would suggest you search Meta a bit for "explain downvotes" or similar. (cont.)
    – Kendra
    Apr 22, 2015 at 18:30
  • (cont.) If you come up with a new idea compared to the past discussions and a compelling argument for it, preferably with supporting data, maybe try a new feature request. But please really try to get that supporting data before you post- Something to show why you feel it would be helpful or a good idea. Otherwise, the suggestion will just get shot down again.
    – Kendra
    Apr 22, 2015 at 18:30
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    You are neither the first nor the last to propose downvote reasons: google.com/… (note that some of those links will lead you to Meta Stack Exchange rather than back here, because this feature request is one of the oldest in the history of Meta.
    – jscs
    Apr 22, 2015 at 18:40
  • @Kendra, that's a more than fair proposal and one that I am willing take on... Thanks!
    – Mark
    Apr 22, 2015 at 18:48
  • @Josh, thanks for the enlightenment; obviously this is my first stab at proposing a feature request so I was not aware of the pioneers. :-) But I will persist on the request even if I must come back with another angle to approach the problem. (problem being subjective of course!)
    – Mark
    Apr 22, 2015 at 18:48
  • Of course. Like I said though, and I can't stress this enough, make sure whenever you try to suggest something, and not just the explaining downvotes idea, you support it as best as you can with examples, data, and anything else you can find to support it. Make your argument in any feature-request as compelling and well-supported as you can, or you're likely to meet some resistance at some point. Good luck to you. :)
    – Kendra
    Apr 22, 2015 at 18:51
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    @JoshCaswell, on the bright side, I do think it is the first time it has been asked this week Apr 22, 2015 at 19:02
  • So far this I think has been the best DV explanation proposal: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/253531
    – nkjt
    Apr 23, 2015 at 14:21
  • @nkjt, reading over that link you provided I think DV proposal sounds very doable and an extremely reasonable request. Also, judging by the votes on the post, there are a good number who'd agree. I'm beginning to realize that the feasibility and reasonable nature of the request is presumably only a fraction of the reason to the overall request is being shot down. As always, politics play a strong role in everything.
    – Mark
    Apr 24, 2015 at 9:38
  • @Mark the linked proposal is a full feature request with mockups and an explanation of how it would work, as well as showing a good understanding of all the (extensive) previous discussion on the topic. i.e. they did their research, and you didn't. Simple as that. (disclaimer: I upvoted that other post, because it is a good suggestion and a lot of thought clearly went into it. I didn't bother downvoting here because pile-on)
    – nkjt
    Apr 24, 2015 at 10:54
  • @nkjt, I believe I have fully acknowledged my lack of research in my previous comments. My statement was not specific to my request, it was an acknowledgement that "even when" the due diligence and research has been performed; it apparently did not make much of a difference because the feature is still not implemented and from what I have gathered so far, it doesn't appear that it will. That's all. No need to re-emphasize what I didn't do at this point.
    – Mark
    Apr 25, 2015 at 13:47

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