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I've noticed a positive trend in the last six months, and I would like to confirm it -- if possible. It appears to me that more women users are participating on Stack Overflow -- importantly: answering. This is terrific!

  1. Has anyone else noticed this?
  2. Is there any way to measure participation from a database query?

Caveat: I don't think profiles explicit state if the user is a women, so I am guessing from (a) profile name, (b) profile image, and (c) explicit comments stating the user is a women. (Yes, I know (a) and (b) are imperfect.)

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    What's the difference? Accounts aren't gender-personalized. Why would you think women weren't participating before?
    – Radiodef
    Apr 19, 2015 at 7:22
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    Maybe because we don't? (It's the overt hostility that only gets worse if we're known to be women. Well, that and the coderot.) I can count the number of senior women devs who ever even bothered to create a SO profile on one hand, and that includes me. And when we do, we deliberately choose gender-ambiguous names. Comparing the most recent survey with one from a couple years back: stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015#profile-gender docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/… Apr 19, 2015 at 7:36
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    @Radiodef Statistics generated by self-identification which we are telling you we skew on purpose because we feel we have to, because of the overt hostility communicated enormously in part to even the occasional, passing question such as this one - not just the commentary, but the torrent of unexplained downvoting. Apr 19, 2015 at 21:06
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    @satyrwilder Again, survey data which is not displayed on personal accounts. You have no idea what my gender is and I have no idea what yours is. If you think somebody's been treated wrongly because they were a woman I'd be more interested to talk about that, but I've never seen such an example myself. The question is probably downvoted because, again, accounts aren't gender-personalized and more women aren't posting on Stack Overflow. I didn't downvote so that's a guess.
    – Radiodef
    Apr 19, 2015 at 22:07
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    If the gender gap on SO is just a reflection of the gender gap in programming in general, then I don't see how Meta.SO is a place for such a discussion. Gender gap on SO is therefore a symptom, not the problem. It's also unfortunately a politicized topic.
    – Radiodef
    Apr 19, 2015 at 22:07
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    @Radiodef Nothing I said had anything whatsoever to do with your gender at any point. Furthermore, nothing I said was about you personally. I referenced these responses, including but not limited to your response, as being an example of the origin of the hostility at the base of the OP's question. And my comments are and remain primarily in response to the OP offering some insight relevant to the actual question. Feel free to speculate why at least 11 people downvoted it, I guess, but be aware it doesn't change anything about the overall hostility women are dodging. Apr 19, 2015 at 22:34
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    @satyrwilder I am merely making the point that Stack Overflow is gender-neutral by default. My comments directed to you are likewise impersonal. Note that there are sites where such discussions are on-topic and well-received.
    – Radiodef
    Apr 19, 2015 at 22:41
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    @Radiodef Right, except that none are actually relevant to this specific SO use case, which the OP's question is expressly about SO on the meta level. It is relevant to me as a SO user / contributor I guess / participant who has been on the receiving end of the gender-based overt hostility and subconscious bias that exists on SO, offering my insight based on those experiences. If Meta isn't the place for this discussion, nowhere is. Which I guess is the point. (And it's perceived gender gap. We don't even know what the actual numbers are. Which was part of my original point.) Apr 19, 2015 at 23:49
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    @Radiodef As I've repeatedly stated, that is part of it, yes. Apr 19, 2015 at 23:52
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    @Radiodef I'll rephrase it, then. There is an latent (but intense) hostility throughout SO which suddenly goes off the charts expressly when the poster is perceived to be a woman. Anecdotal: right now at this minute, other women are apologizing for not contributing to this because they're expecting me to get pilloried at any moment. (I'm honestly surprised it hasn't already happened. Won't have been the first time.) The result of this is that in general, we stridently avoid being identified as women - neutral handles, etc. - and trying to data mine SO won't work because of that aversion. Apr 20, 2015 at 0:08
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    I mean, right now we're up to at least 12 downvotes (offsetting my upvote) and not a single remark as to why. How often do you see _that many_ downvotes without _anybody_ giving any feedback or reasoning or suggestions for improving it whatsoever? -> How are women supposed to interpret that, other than any allusion to our existence, no matter how positive or upbeat, will trigger a flood of unreasoned and more importantly unrelenting animosity? Apr 20, 2015 at 0:17
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    @satyrwilder "How often do you see that many downvotes without anybody giving any feedback or reasoning or suggestions for improving it whatsoever?" All the time. Also, I've arguably given feedback even though I did not downvote. "How are women supposed to interpret that [...]?" Often posts are downvoted (on Meta) because the voters disagree with the premise. As I alluded to before, the votes likely mean "I haven't noticed this and I don't care about measuring it with a database query".
    – Radiodef
    Apr 20, 2015 at 0:51
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    @Radiodef "Often posts are downvoted (on Meta) because the voters disagree with the premise." "As I alluded to before, the votes likely mean [...]" I don't think satyrwilder needs an explanation on why posts get downvoted. Apr 20, 2015 at 1:06
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    @Radiodef I wasn't discussing Meta voting culture in general, I was observing that this is just another example of the trend that is only seen in this specific context: a flood of downvotes, without so much as a single remark as to why from anyone. In fact, I will add this addendum to my prior observation: that in any other context, mods would probably have solicited feedback by now. Apr 20, 2015 at 1:07
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    @satyrwilder I can't tell for (now) 16 downvoters, but I can only assume that: 1) is opinion-based and won't be useful as some might say 'yes', while the others say 'no', and 2) is a valid question, but community deemed that it's not important nor useful, or even actively dangerous since that means gender is stored in the database (and implicitly, the data is public to anyone)
    – Andrew T.
    Apr 20, 2015 at 6:24

2 Answers 2

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For the record:

I don't think it's currently viable to data mine gender participation with any accuracy. Here's why:


Edited:

Thanks to diligent tagging, I ran across another question with a comment linking to a report that successfully mined the needed data much like I'd envisioned.


  1. SO doesn't (and probably shouldn't) collect that information.
    • If this were to work, SO would have to solicit that information with the understanding it would be kept separate and private in order to expect any accuracy and not effect an unintentional de facto mass exodus
  2. The people you're interested in learning about actively avoid identification specifically of that.
    • This happens due to the fact that people are treated differently when they are identified as women
      • ^ This is the actual problem.
    • The people treating women differently won't address, let alone solve, the problem.
      • Refer to the comments on this question for an example of this.
    • That means that the people being treated differently take steps to avoid being identified as women
      • This a workaround, not a solution.
      • Your perception that we don't is, unfortunately, the same commonly held subconscious bias we leverage by using ambiguous / gender-neutral nicknames and simply not reacting when we're addressed as "man", "dude", "guys", etc.

We participate on SO, you just don't know it's us. ;)

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    @satyrwilder I added my upvote and am supportive of this discussion. I think if anyone feels they have to hide, be anonymous or are being treated with hostility they should be able to express that sentiment in the same medium it is occurring in. Oddly enough, places that are friendlier to folks from all walks of life don't seem to have a problem with this. Apr 20, 2015 at 0:26
  • Thank you. <3 For being brave, and being braver than me. Apr 20, 2015 at 0:29
  • Nah its not being brave. I've just been burned in different places. :) Apr 20, 2015 at 0:31
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    The last time I tried to stick up for women on SO / MSO, it was just me. I basically stopped answering questions or participating on SO as a result. Only came back here because my mentees have had such horrible experiences trying to get help. Apr 20, 2015 at 0:34
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    My mentor, who is also a woman and a senior level dev, warned me that this would happen to me if I asked any questions on Stack and actively advised me against asking for help on Stackoverflow if I got stuck because of that. And she was right.
    – super_J
    Apr 20, 2015 at 3:39
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    As I gained experience in programming and built skill over the past 2 years (which is pretty hard to do when you're a woman struggling in extreme, unrelieved abject poverty with no help and no economic support, BTW), and began to answer other people's questions, my answers were not up-voted or even so much as acknowledged. So I stopped participating on Stackoverflow entirely.
    – super_J
    Apr 20, 2015 at 3:40
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    Weighing in on this discussion thread has been my only exception to my non-participation "rule." And the only reason I am even participating now with this input, is because my mentor sent me the link to this discussion and suggested I weigh in with my experiences as an extremely disadvantaged woman coming from a position of total disprivilege.
    – super_J
    Apr 20, 2015 at 3:41
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    @super_J sorry to hear that, but I'm not really sure using your full name made your questions got downvoted/closed, nor didn't get upvote. AFAIK, the things that SO community concerns are post quality and unfortunately, reputation, but not about gender.
    – Andrew T.
    Apr 20, 2015 at 6:36
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    @AndrewT. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/254891/… <- I found this by checking out the all of 5 questions tagged with gender. Of the 20 comments on the question, nobody disagrees. Those who express their belief assert agreement that [ being identified as female ] equates to preferential treatment. Noteable: some users voluntarily describe their conscious choice to discriminate against questions asked by people they identify as women. Some agree; nobody seems to find this at all objectionable (not even the mod.) Apr 20, 2015 at 11:11
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    I am glad the tag helped you find the appropriate post. Apr 20, 2015 at 14:12
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    Thanks for the study link
    – Jesuisme
    Apr 20, 2015 at 16:17
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    I have a couple problems with this answer right now. The first a most important in my mind is the study you are currently linking to. You said in a comment on the question that the study was done in 2012. I looked at how they collected the data, and considering anyone can choose any name and location they wish, I feel that I just can't take that study 100% seriously. On a lot of other websites I visit, I use a username and picture that frequently makes people think I'm male. Even if people use their real names, you can't know for sure if they are male or female, (cont.)
    – Kendra
    Apr 20, 2015 at 16:27
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    (cont.) as a male can always be given a female name and vice versa. With the study being a couple years old as well, I feel that, given the influx of new members here daily, that data, even if correct, is outdated and would need to be updated even if I did take it at face value. Not only that, but they took a small subset of users and could have potentially grabbed a set that was mostly male anyway. The fact that almost half of the users they attempted to determine gender on could not in fact be determined also makes me really doubt the accuracy of the study. (cont.)
    – Kendra
    Apr 20, 2015 at 16:28
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    (cont.) My second problem with this answer, which is a small nitpick really, is that it sounds very, very generalized to take all female participants into consideration, and I feel that is wrong. Mostly, this is your point 2. I feel this is wrong as not only have I seen female users, such as myself, identify as female without worry, but one of the mods I see quite frequently around here has absolutely no problem with identifying with female. I'm pretty sure there are other non-employee mods around here that are female as well, but she's one of the ones I notice frequently.
    – Kendra
    Apr 20, 2015 at 16:28
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    As for the migration, it was migrated back to MSO after the MSO/MSE split, as it was specifically about SO itself and therefore belongs here and not on the network meta. MSO split into MSO and MSE a few months after that question was asked. That doesn't mean, of course, that it's not still relevant and accurate, but it doesn't mean that it is either.
    – Kendra
    Apr 20, 2015 at 17:03
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I gave the OP an upvote because I think that the spirit of the question is coming from the right place and the larger discussion is warranted.

I voted this way in spite of the fact that I think the downvoters and opposing commenters are absolutely right. This is a symptom of the larger lack of diversity in technology. Also, we don't have a way to measure gender participation (to my knowledge) and I don't believe that SO should ever collect gender, ability, race, or age information. Code is code regardless of who writes it.

It's easy to dismiss bias when you aren't the target of it. I think that a lot of the people of the world are open-minded and fair. Sometimes we have to be reminded that there are jerks among us who aren't.

So maybe we could try a different take on examining gender participation. Maybe a sentiment analysis on question responses. Or a study among members that are willing to self identify.

Sounds like a dissertation topic for someone...

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    for the record, since it was apparently ambiguous elsewhere, I completely agree. It shouldn't matter that we're women or anything else. But it does, when we can't use names that suggest we're women and are further simply assumed to not participate as has happened here. Also ftr, data mining wouldn't work because we actively avoid identification. Apr 20, 2015 at 1:18
  • "opposing commenters" I hope you aren't referring to me, who asked a woman to explain her experiences and was willing to listen, just because I remained neutral and presented evidence that indicated that problems are being addressed.
    – Radiodef
    Apr 20, 2015 at 1:27
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    @Radiodef I've changed the language from "negative commenter" to "opposing commenter" to say more of what I meant, which is a dissenting opinion. And good for you for being willing to say something. I think we benefit from free discussion.
    – Jesuisme
    Apr 20, 2015 at 1:30
  • @satyrwilder I think we could do the mining approach if we start with screen names that "sound" female and apply the analysis to those posts. There has to be some sort of trigger. Or we use the self identified population to start and look for patterns.
    – Jesuisme
    Apr 20, 2015 at 1:39
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    @Radiodef I would not have described you as neutral (I wouldn't describe anyone, myself included, as actually neutral about this), although I would describe you as making a valid effort to address. Apr 20, 2015 at 1:58
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    @Jesuisme I have to point out that the perception of a self-identified woman as being in opposition (or negative, or whatever) contrasts with the actual thoughts that self-identified woman expresses. Regarding your further remarks, please refer to the answer I posted as it contains a suggestion for how to collect that data with any hope of accuracy. :) Apr 20, 2015 at 2:03
  • @satyrwilder "I would not have described you as neutral" I said I was not aware there was a problem beyond a statistical one (which, to be fair to all viewpoints, some believe is not a problem, but a natural result) and presented evidence as my basis. Non-neutral would be "you are making it up" or "SO is a men's club".
    – Radiodef
    Apr 20, 2015 at 2:13
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    @Radiodef If you're neutral for lack of awareness, I suppose I am too despite awareness. However, I'm asserting that neutrality isn't possible because this question's premise is based in subconscious bias - so either a person is unaware of the bias and its effect, or aware of the bias and tries consciously to offset it. Either way isn't neutral. We may be splitting hairs, now ;) Apr 20, 2015 at 2:21
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    SO does collect age information.
    – Octopus
    Jun 2, 2015 at 19:06

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