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I had two comments deleted from this question https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29421292/why-second-fclose-has-earlier-timestamp-than-first-fclose sometime since yesterday evening.

Since I'm not a moderator, I can't see exactly what I wrote yesterday. I don't believe I was snarky, rude or unhelpful -- I certainly did not intend to be. I did later downvote the question due to the OP's refusal to clarify his question in any helpful way (my downvote is not the only one btw). I would guess that the OP flagged my comments in "retaliation" -- though how would I know? The comment moderation process is completely opaque.

The real issue to me though is that a moderator obviously looked at my (I believe relatively innocuous) comments that were intended to be helpful, and removed them while leaving the OP's next two comments which were (1) complaining about his question being downvoted, and (2) complaining about my comments directly ("you don't make any sense").

I'm just trying to figure out what comments are really for. The hover tip says they are "to ask for more information or suggest improvements" and that's what mine were doing.

I don't really care about this particular instance, but the moderation process just seems flawed and arbitrary. First, that comments simply disappear without the poster even being informed that it was done, let alone why.

And second, some moderator looked at the post, deleted my (at worst innocuous and maybe even helpful comments) but left the OP's complaints? Really?

So, yes, I am a bit annoyed. I've seen people here on meta (somewhat condescendingly IMO) explain that comments are ephemeral, unimportant, second-class content and so forth. But it's irksome to have somebody delete my "work product" so thoughtlessly. I took the time to download the OP's code, get it to compile and run, and report back my results, pointing out the need for clarification of the question and now that's just disappeared. But the OP's comment about how I "don't make any sense" is still there.

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    unfortunately Gil, the answer you'll get is, lemme quote you : "comments are ephemeral, unimportant, second-class content and so forth". It's not FUN by any means, but it's how it is
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 20:12
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    This isn't really an answer, but there really should be a log where you can see your own deleted content (questions, answers, and comments) similar to your own flags, and so that you can see the reason why they were deleted (at least with comments). Performing moderation actions on content and not informing the user is Bad Practice 101.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 3:23
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    @TylerH you have been informed, but chose to ignore it stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/comment
    – Brad Werth
    Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 13:29
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    @BradWerth Not sure how that's relevant to my comment. For clarification, I'm talking about an action log like the Flag Summary page that we can view of moderator actions on our comments. tl;dr we need to know when our comments were deleted and why.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 19:16

3 Answers 3

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These kind of questions are a plague at SO, especially so in the last year. The universe has run out of new users, everybody knows how SO works. And they have learned that posting a snippet is important to increase the odds to get an answer. Which matters, the number of questions that don't get any answer at all have been steadily rising.

They however haven't learned that the snippet ought to at least compile or have a realistic shot at reproducing the problem. You can waste a good deal of your free time trying to bang it into shape and poke around trying to get a repro. With nothing to show for it as a common outcome.

What happens next is rarely pretty. Of course you are annoyed at the waste of your time. And yes, the OP will be double-annoyed when you point out that his snippet sucks.

He already knows.

Moderators enforce company policy, questioners are entitled to be annoyed about anything you say that doesn't solve their problem. A policy that's aimed at reducing the number of complaints that stream into their email inbox. So if you say "It is not complete" and that gets flagged as "rude" by the questioner then your comment is history, it doesn't matter that it doesn't sound or looks rude. Any utterance is rude if it generates a complaint.

The only real defense you have against this is knowing that this pattern exists and is common. Take a gander at the snippet, note pretty major flaws with it early. A void function returning a bool? Stop right there, you know the snippet is fake. DV right away so nobody else wastes their time on it.

You can vote to close, and pain yourself to choose between the weasel-worded reasons (selected to not generate complaints) to send back a half-baked message. But it is quite pointless:

He already knows.

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    "A void function returning a bool? Stop right there, you know the snippet is fake. DV right away so nobody else wastes their time on it." That's some great advice.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 22:08
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    "Moderators enforce company policy" - No, we don't. We are volunteers, and we choose to act on things of our own volition. I delete rude comments because they are rude, not because that reduces complaints to SE. I believe that all people deserve to be treated with respect, even if you feel they have not earned it. I can tell you right now that my actions have generated a large number of complaints to SE by those I've caught cheating the voting system or suspended for abusing others. Reduction of complaints to SE is not how anyone here judges a moderator..
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 23:43
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    Brad, if you honestly think that "It is not complete" is rude then you need to tune you rude-detector. I understand you need to act on it, you are expected to. This came up in previous moderator elections that featured troll entries for example. Where SE employees made it crystal-clear that moderators are expected to follow the company's guidelines and had to formally agree to them before they could be a moderator. Understand I only posted this answer to show what other SO users might think that are not beholden that what SE investors like to see happen. Another point of view. Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 0:09
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    @BradLarson one of the biggest challenges facing the perceptions of how mods act is that the actions are arbitrary and highly dependent on which mod is acting on them. This makes it very difficult for people. We are asking for consistency of flag handling, preferably a consistency that matches the policies spelled out in the help center. If this was deleted under the policies in be nice, please point out how the comment "it is not complete" conflicts with any of the points in be nice, or how "it is not complete" could be said with a polite tone.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 1:47
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    @MichaelT - As long as a group of humans are processing flags (moderators or the community), there will always be differences in the ways specific cases are handled. For example, note that I said that the "it is not complete" comment was flagged as rude, and that I can see why George removed it. Do I personally think it was rude or offensive? Probably not. However, it wasn't clear in what it was stating, and I didn't think it added something to the question asked, so I said I understood why George removed it. Decline that flag, and other people will complain about uneven enforcement.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 13:47
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    @Brad - I personally find a "rude" accusation a very, very serious one. Only hate-speech can top that one. If you get a rude flag and you delete a comment that is not rude but merely unhelpful then you are letting the user abuse the system. Surely preventing abuse is a top moderator duty? You probably don't have the time to look at every single one of them in detail to make the proper call. Perhaps you are getting too many because you let users abuse the flag. Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 14:41
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    Meh. I guarantee you, no one at the company cares much about comments like this. We get complaints when folks get personal - when comment go in for name-calling and so on. The folks asking these sorts of questions don't even bother to read the comments - I have to point them out when they ask why they're banned from asking. My advice to moderators for handling comment flags is pretty consistently, "don't think too much about it" - if the comment doesn't look useful, then delete it and move on. In this case, the comment was noise and it got deleted.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 23:21
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    Hmm, so do you dismiss the flag because it is a gross misrepresentation of the user's character and intentions. And then delete the comment anyway? Or is it, meh, who cares because they won't find out? Fairly sure it is the latter, that's a pretty fekkedup way to get users to communicate constructively. Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 23:48
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    This is one of the best treatises I have seen on what is wrong with SO. Nearly all of the discussion on this question seems to me bizarre in light of the fact that SO is awash in crud. It is just absolutely comical that while Rome burns, we are discussing the finer points of whether "It's not complete" is or is not rude, and what to do about it. Talk about missing the forest for the trees... Commented Apr 10, 2015 at 21:04
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Your first comment consisted solely of

it's not complete

and was flagged as being rude. I can see why that was removed, because it didn't really add anything clear to the question.

I've undeleted your other comment of

When I add a couple of hacks to make it a complete program, it works fine.

because that does provide some clues to help the asker. It was flagged as not being constructive, and I can see how that could be worded better, but it does provide additional information.

While I was at it, I cleaned up the other comments that referred to those. When we see comments in the moderator interface, we only see the flagged comments, not all of those around them. Sometimes we miss ones that refer to the ones we're about to remove, and that leaves dangling conversations. You're welcome to flag the dangling parts if you see them, and we'll clean them up.

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    Again without all the comments in sequence, the context remains less than clear, but now I remember more. The first commenter had asked for the OP to provide a "minimal, complete and verifiable" example. The OP then edited and posted a comment saying (or implying?) that he had made it so. My comment was simply saying "no. it's still not complete." So I agree it could have been better worded but it was not intended as argumentative or rude, simply a statement of fact. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 20:37
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    So I'm actually more interested in your last bit: "When we see comments in the moderator interface, we only see the flagged comments, not all of those around them." Really? How can you possibly judge the comment outside its context? Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 20:41
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    @GilHamilton - For many classes of comments, like "+1 good answer", "Discount Prada handbags here: [url]", or "shut up, you asswipe", it's pretty easy to judge outside of context. For others, I will expand the comment list, but it's not always obvious that there are other parts of a conversation that need to be dealt with as well, particularly as threads go 10+ comments long. We get hundreds of these flags a day, and comments aren't considered as important as other forms of content. Sometimes we leave loose ends.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 20:50
  • I'm guessing that spam and obscene flags are higher on the priority list. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 21:07
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Brad Larson's answer is spot on. Since I'm the moderator that handled those comment flags, I'll expand on why they were deleted.

Both comments were flagged (as Brad points out). While neither seemed "Rude", neither comment really added anything to the conversation. "It's not complete" is vague -- what's not complete? What about it is not complete? What is it missing that would make it complete?

The second comment:

When I add a couple of hacks to make it a complete program, it works fine.

is not useful as a comment in of itself. "When I change your program, it works". Ok... What changes are you referring to? What changes did you make?

If someone from Google comes in and sees your comments, would they consider them:

  1. Helpful and useful.
  2. Neither helpful or unhelpful.
  3. Not useful.

Comments that fall under #2 and #3 are really subject to deletion at any time. All it takes is a flag. #1 should normally be edited into the answer, question, or become its own answer (depending), but they get to stick around as a comment (subject to obsoleteness, of course).

In your case, while the flags weren't 100% spot on, the comments did fall into categories #2 and #3, and that lead to them being deleted.

If you provide useful and actionable information "We're missing x, y, and z, from your code; without that we can't help you", or "when I add the following lines, your code works", then your comment won't likely be deleted.

We're actively trying to keep comments from being like this:

enter image description here

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    Not sure I should comment here because it distracts from the "meta" discussion but perhaps this is part of it... "It's not complete" is not at all vague; to me, it's crystal clear. (And I believe the antecedent is also clear in context.) While I would have liked to post my own code as an example and shown that it worked, that is really not possible in a comment given size limitations. I made what I consider obvious hacks to it ("to make it a complete program" - main, headers, etc). I think my 2nd comment did provide the essential info: your code doesn't produce the effect you say it does. Commented Apr 4, 2015 at 4:23

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