127

Inspired by recent events, I'm more than a little distraught at what happened, and I'd like to see some provision to be made to allow an SO user to disassociate themselves from a post. Quoting the legalese:

7. Termination
7.b Subject to the above terms and conditions, the license granted here is perpetual (for the duration of the applicable copyright in the Work). Notwithstanding the above, Licensor reserves the right to release the Work under different license terms or to stop distributing the Work at any time; provided, however that any such election will not serve to withdraw this License (or any other license that has been, or is required to be, granted under the terms of this License), and this License will continue in full force and effect unless terminated as stated above.

What is without a doubt is that SE always retains the right to keep a user's contribution visible and can do anything they want to ensure it stays visible, including un-deleting posts that were deleted by the poster. Notwithstanding, I believe the verbiage does give the poster (Licensor in the text) some rights to be involved with what happens to his contribution afterwards. With the "stop distributing" right explicitly granted in the text.

Trouble is, SO users have very little control over the distribution aspect. And simply deleting the post violates the license so is not in any way a solution.

I posit that this can be interpreted, indirectly, as a right to no longer have the user's name associated with the post. SE can continue to distribute the content, keeping the spirit of the license intact. This is something that's already possible, I understand that a custom moderator flag can be used to ask a mod to disassociate. I've used it a few times but did not have a lot of luck with it so stopped using it. Mods seemed particularly reluctant to do so when the post is marked as the answer.

I would personally feel much less inclined to delete posts, and assume the same would apply to many other SO contributors like Bauke, if the option was readily accessible to me without having to ask explicit permission. Say, a [disassociate] button right next to the [delete] button. With already existing code in the engine in place to implement it, I don't see any need to alter what it does. Whether the option should only be available to users with "sufficient rep" is open for debate, I personally don't mind.

7
  • 5
  • 4
    We have a "disassociate" function; it is currently a dev-only operation, but if you want to ping me with the post id... Mar 18, 2015 at 12:07
  • 18
    Disassociation is an employee-only function, only community managers and developers can do it. You can flag for it, and mods faithfully escalate those flags to us, and we just oblige. What makes this tricky is during the process of obliging if we notice that we're erasing a pattern of very low quality contributions, or abusive behavior, we have to make sure any system-imposed restrictions and history remain in tact. The headache is in the moderation aspect.
    – Tim Post
    Mar 18, 2015 at 12:27
  • 1
    You also have the option of changing a post to "Community Wiki", although that leaves you in the history. My concern about this proposition is that users would feel free to post garbage or even hateful messages.
    – Brian
    Mar 18, 2015 at 19:50
  • 1
    @Brian We actually just fixed some bugs related to purging names out of CW history post-disassociation, which still isn't working quite .. right 100% of the time. And yes, the garbage / hateful stuff would be an issue, which is why (to moderators) there should be very little visible change as far as their ability to know who wrote a post. Most people would use this honestly. Some would try to use it to evade question restrictions, a select group of trolls would probably try to get away with murder - but we still have to account for 'em.
    – Tim Post
    Mar 19, 2015 at 9:18
  • 3
    FYI, I'm starting on this at the end of next week, once we've completed a whole bunch of tests on the helper queue & triage.
    – Tim Post
    Jun 6, 2015 at 1:05
  • 1
    You say 'With the "stop distributing" right explicitly granted in the text. Trouble is, SO users have very little control over the distribution aspect.' IMO, this appears to indicate a flaw in understanding what section 7(b) does. As I understand it, section 7(b) reserves the right to the author to stop their distribution of the content (which isn't SO's distribution), and reiterates that the author stopping their distribution does not affect the previously granted licenses, including distribution rights, which were already granted (to SO, and through SO to others).
    – Makyen Mod
    Jan 31 at 3:17

2 Answers 2

76

We're working on a few things surrounding this.

Self-disassociation

Yes - users should definitely be able to disassociate themselves from their contributions without involving us. It's the right thing to do, and makes life easier for everyone.

Holding it up:

  • We have to implement this in a way that doesn't let a user get around system-imposed restrictions such as rate limits or question blocks. This is tricky, we're going to work on it.
  • Similar, but not identical to the first, we have to do this in a manner that would allow moderators to easily follow a trail of disassociated posts, because in outright 'troll' cases, we'd be making their jobs a lot harder if we didn't.

I do not have a definite timeline other than I plan to dive into it as soon as we wrap up the major parts of the long-term quality initiative we've been doing, which (gasp) should be soon!

We adjusted the threshold for the system that caused this

Going through and occasionally pruning posts that you see no point in keeping should not trigger this (unless you're doing a heck of a lot of pruning). At the same time we're going to increase awareness of how to investigate this when it surfaces for our network moderators.

We're re-examining parts of our policy when it comes to deletions

You sometimes have to ask yourself what you're actually trying to prevent when policies sometimes get in the way of people using your software as intended. On the one hand, the system will let you delete a certain number of posts in any given time period, and it doesn't really tell you that doing so might not be the best thing to do if at least one other person found them valuable.

On the other hand, rage-quits are an unfortunate reality, and we need to have nets in place to catch those.

I brought this discussion up last week due to events that transpired on some of our religious sites, and I can't go into much more detail at the moment, but we do see people often hitting benign heads against this and are talking about it.

tl;dr

While I do plan to pursue self-disassociation, I don't think it's quite enough, because this keeps coming up in different forms - both here and in our support system.

I do not have a definite timeline, I am putting on this, and if you haven't heard anything from me about this in a month you should definitely get after me in comments. Right now I'm still in the feasibility stage.

I wish I could give more concrete answers, I can't yet, but I wanted to be as open and transparent about what were doing as I could, even if .. it's not yet as much as I'd like.

24
  • If disassociation becomes easier and thus more common, might it then be a good idea to show a count (only count though) of recent (1 week) disassociations in the profile? Just so users have a chance to guess there is a patttern a mod should maybe investigate? Mar 18, 2015 at 12:53
  • 2
    That wouldn't be a lot of signal. We have two things that we have to be able to do, 1 - make sure we count disassociated posts when determining your average score (so that algorithms that slow you down if you get off on the wrong foot still work) and 2 - make sure mods can see disassociated posts belonging to a user, but log it like we'd log any other kind of access to non-public information. If that can be done, then there's no real impact to speak of in implementing it, beyond a (yet unknown) amount of technical debt, which is why it's under review.
    – Tim Post
    Mar 18, 2015 at 13:03
  • 29
    "We have to implement this in a way that doesn't let a user get around system-imposed restrictions such as rate limits or question blocks. This is tricky" - what would be the problem with simply adding a "disassociated" flag to all posts which, when set, results in the post being rendered without the user details, not taken into account for rep, and of course hidden on the users profile? Just because you do no longer visibly associate the post with a user does not mean that the system itself has to forget who posted it, you can keep accountability while removing publicly visible association.
    – l4mpi
    Mar 18, 2015 at 13:03
  • 7
    @l4mpi Just considering Data.SE that could make the dump much more complex (dump this field, unless its has been disassociated) which makes it a bit more challenging. Having another undumped table to track real ownership of a post (that would be accessable via diamond mod tools) might be another solution (and it might drastically reduce the workload when there is a undelete of a user involving reassociation of posts).. but then again, I'm guessing about the backend code as much as you are there too.
    – user289086
    Mar 18, 2015 at 13:12
  • 11
    @l4mpi The point is that if you add that flag you now need to go through almost every single section of code that deals with questions and alter it to treat the question as being anonymous and not owned by the user that the system says owns it. It's super easy to add that field, but if you do that it's very easy to forget to check against it in some place somewhere and end up exposing the user's name with the content.
    – Servy
    Mar 18, 2015 at 14:10
  • 6
    @l4mpi If, instead, you add a new table that maps questions to owners for anonymous content and then blank out the user data in the actual posts table the vast majority of code dealing with questions can remain the same, but the true owner of an anonymous post can still be looked up when explicitly attempting to do so. That approach isn't without it's problems, but the point is that a change like this is far more time consuming than just adding a new column to a single table.
    – Servy
    Mar 18, 2015 at 14:11
  • 2
    @l4mpi It could conceivably work that way. It would be a vote, not a flag, as there would inevitably be a need for a counter vote to re associate something when someone made a mistake. You've also got to factor in migrations into this, which makes it .. interesting :) It's not particularly hard as problems go, just complicated, especially at our scale.
    – Tim Post
    Mar 18, 2015 at 14:13
  • 4
    @l4mpi You've got the question list (and all of the various tabs on it) the actual question view, review queues, search, the data.SE dump, profiles, 10k tools, rep calculation, rate limiting, post bans, user rankings, the external user cards, tag rankings, tag synonymizing, who knows how many badge calculations, and those are just the items off of the top of my head. I'm sure I've forgotten some.
    – Servy
    Mar 18, 2015 at 14:28
  • 5
    Why not add dissociation-as-button to the privileges list? 8k, 10k, something like that, you can dissociate your own posts. Below that you still have to kick it upstairs; I'd imagine that should make malicious dissociation (runarounds of rate limits) exceptional.
    – jscs
    Mar 18, 2015 at 18:46
  • 11
    @JoshCaswell That gets, tricky. What that could be interpreted as doing is taking something folks should have under the terms of the license in which they grant us perpetual use of their content, and saying "but you can't really have it until you give us loads more of it that people like". Even though anyone can contact us at any time to request disassociation, the perception there is, quite possibly, not good.
    – Tim Post
    Mar 19, 2015 at 9:08
  • 4
    @TimPost You said to ping you a month later, and it's pretty much 1 month later ;-) Is there any progress on this behind the scenes? (Sorry for adding another Tim to comments).
    – Tim
    Apr 17, 2015 at 20:51
  • 5
    @TimPost What happened to this? What's the current state of affairs? Is this still being looked at?
    – ArtOfCode
    Jul 15, 2015 at 11:50
  • 9
    Any update on this ? Is it still being looked at ? It's almost 1 year later now.. May 3, 2016 at 11:55
  • 2
    @TimPost Update?
    – Tim
    Mar 14, 2017 at 15:48
  • 1
    What happened to self-disassociations? At the moment the only option is account suicide.
    – user1522973
    Sep 8, 2017 at 14:22
28

IANAL I am far from being a lawyer, but I don't think that's what the legalese means.

I believe the verbiage does give the poster (Licensor in the text) some rights to be involved with what happens to his contribution afterwards. With the "stop distributing" right explicitly granted in the text.

No. "stop distributing" refers to the licensor no more sharing his work with others, such as posting it to platforms like SO. If he had published his work in his blog, he might discontinue hosting that at any time. He may stop distributing his work himself.

However, having granted SE the right to share his work (that is licensed CC-BY-SA) once, this right is not revokable. The summary of the licence states basically

You [StackExchange] are free to share (copy and redistribute) the material in any medium or format. The licensor cannot revoke this freedom as long as you follow the license terms.

This of course obliges them to attribute the post correctly to the author.

SO users have very little control over the distribution aspect.

Yes. In fact, by licensing their work under CC-BY-SA they have explicitly given away any control over the distribution. Everyone may or may not distribute it as long as the license terms are followed.

I posit that this can be interpreted, indirectly, as a right to no longer have the user's name associated with the post.

No. Once you published your work under the CC-BY license, everyone (including SE) is allowed to distribute the post, as long as the name is associated with it.

SE can continue to distribute the content, keeping the spirit of the license intact.

No. You must not distribute the content without attributing the author, except he has given you the explicit permission to do so. This is not in the spirit of the CC license.


So what does deletion mean in terms of the license? Not much, except that StackExchange chooses (based on community vote / author intent[1] / moderator decision) to no longer distribute the content on the StackOverflow site (to <10k users, at least). Everyone else still may do that. The license is not revokable.

Similar things can be seen at Wikipedia, when an article is deleted it will sometimes pop up at some other wiki - properly attributed to the original author. See Deletionpedia for an example.

[1]: And we know what happens when the community decision conflicts with author intent.


I don't like the idea of a disassociate button.
It would basically mean that the author releases his work under a different license (one that does not require attribution), possibly only licensed to StackExchange. This would need to be stated explicitly. A make public domain button could do that. Another option would be CC-SA. Whatever we do about this, it should be made clear both to the author what will happen, and to the audience what the legal status of a "disassociated" post is.

But honestly, I don't think we even need that button.


Edit: As noted in the comments, there are in fact licence terms that allow you to prevent attribution of your work to you. However, it's not clause 7b, but 4a that states:

If You create a Collection, upon notice from any Licensor You must, to the extent practicable, remove from the Collection any credit as required by Section 4(c), as requested.

However, StackExchange has already implemented this, see the meta faq How do I remove my name from a post, in accordance with CC:WIKI?.

8
  • 6
    Disagree with "This is not in the spirit of the CC license" - CC is all about giving control to the creator and freeing everybody else from overly restrictive licensing terms. If the creator wishes to no longer have their name associated with the content, this seems like a fair request. And no longer associating the original username does not seem harmful for any usage of the content by SE. Thus it's kind of a special case - the author would practically sub-license the content under CC-SA (no BY), under the condition that SE remove the association.
    – l4mpi
    Mar 19, 2015 at 14:45
  • 4
    @l4mpi: Yeah, freeing them from restrictive licensing things like needing to disassociate names on request. While it might be a fair request, and should be handled with best intentions, there is nothing in the license that requires such action.
    – Bergi
    Mar 19, 2015 at 14:56
  • 2
    And while I don't exactly like a "disassociate" button either, I don't get your reasoning. What's the problem if some content on SE actually has a slightly more permissive license? This is already the case for posts by deleted users; you can't attribute someone who doesn't exist. My problems are rather that I can't figure out a sensible reason why disassociation is needed at all, except for a handful of very special cases. This question seems to stem from BalusCs suspension, but that's not a valid case for disassociation, he just deleted content because his upvoted answers didn't get accepted.
    – l4mpi
    Mar 19, 2015 at 14:56
  • 1
    Ok, seems like we're more or less on the same page then. But while there's nothing forcing a licensee to implement disassociation on request, there is also nothing that stops them from doing so, thus saying it's against the spirit of the license feels wrong to me. And the answer by Tim seems to imply that SE actually wants to offer this as a feature.
    – l4mpi
    Mar 19, 2015 at 14:59
  • 13
    You're correct in that the quoted section of the license does not relate to disassociation at all, and that the title of this question is incorrect, so +1 for that. However, I believe that right to disassociate yourself from the content is part of the "moral rights" you have in many jurisdictions, and is preserved under most Creative Commons licensing. (This is mentioned in their FAQ, but I'd have to dig further for information about US law in particular -- I'm not 100% sure.)
    – Jeremy
    Mar 19, 2015 at 16:49
  • @l4mpi: I didn't mean to say that disassociation on request is against the spirit, only that distribution without attribution (and without permission) is. I guess I'll have to reword that.
    – Bergi
    Mar 19, 2015 at 18:27
  • 3
    @JeremyBanks: Oh, I didn't know about that, that's important material. However, it looks like it's necessary only with v4.0, while SE uses 3.0. But I'm really not a lawyer now :-)
    – Bergi
    Mar 19, 2015 at 18:31
  • Also +1 on the para-legal interpretation but with the important proviso that legal and moral rights are not the same, and that to me the latter is as important as the former. Jun 6, 2015 at 11:16

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .