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This answer promoting a meteor package was deleted by animuson, the moderator. I don't see any explanation, so I can only suspect the reason was that the answerer declared the solution was an open-source package he wrote.

screenshot of deleted answer by mitar

I'm not familiar with animuson's experience with , and judging by their tags, they don't seem to be familiar with Meteor either.

The state of the matter is that Mitar's answer is indeed the only practical solution to the problem; notice how even my answer (I'm #7 in the top meteor users, FWIW) originally claimed that there was no solution.

Mitar Milutinovic spoke at a conference on the educational application he developed using that package, and he's a well-respected package author in the Meteor community with a lot of open-source contributions under his belt.

I would like to request a review of this deletion.

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  • 9
    That answer reads fairly spammy - it's not but that could easily be the reason. Also not sure why it deserves answer status, "use my package, it does what you want" could be improved upon fairly drastically.
    – Ben
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:12
  • 1
    @Ben Mitar is a big contributor in the Meteor community. I think someone who used the components more would know this. The package solves the problem. From what you're saying, if someone else posted the link as opposed to the author this makes it 'undelete' worthy?
    – Tarang
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:13
  • 1
    FWIW Dan is the top #7th answerer on the Meteor tag, and im the top #1 we're not making any of this up, the answer is a good one.
    – Tarang
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:14
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    No @Akshst, I'm saying it was probably flagged and at first and second glance this looks like spam - the person who posted it is irrelevant. Someone's experience doesn't preclude them from having to produce decent answers, and this ones on the knife-edge.
    – Ben
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:17
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    @Ben what you said is its spammy because the author posted a link to his own package. Now you say who posted it doesn't matter. All this is irrelevant with a bit of editing or a comment such as 'could you add an example snippet' it would help the community more than deleting the entire answer.
    – Tarang
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:18
  • That's not what I wrote (there's an "also" in the first comment), and anyone can spam. Maybe, not sure why it's a mods job to do that though, how is animuson meant to expand upon "you can stack them one on another"? Or check that everyone's done that if commenting? Why haven't you or Dan edited it @Akshat?
    – Ben
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:23
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    If it can't be undeleted what is the point of my edit. I would love to fix it. Usually I do post up comments that allow the answer to be fixed. In this case what can I do? I think what would be most helpful here is sample code, if the author had a chance to do this it would be most helpful. We could ask him to in a comment if the answer was undeleted
    – Tarang
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:25
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    @Ben: I didn't have a chance to edit Mitar's answer because Animuson was quick on the "delete" trigger. Why didn't he warn Mitar that the answer looks spammy? Why didn't he flag it for the attention of someone who actually knows a thing or two about meteor? Why can moderators abuse power so easily in areas they know nothing about? Feb 8, 2015 at 9:27
  • Of course it can be undeleted, just not by us mere mortals. A better answer is more likely to be undeleted than one worse than it.
    – Ben
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:28
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    I agree the answer should be undeleted and perhaps improved, but this was not an "abuse" of moderator power. And with probably tens of thousands of contributions to moderate every day, moderators can't spend a lot of time on a flag, hang about and request clarification and such. That's our job. Raising it on Meta was the perfect thing to do and I hope it will be undeleted (or at least enough learned so an answer can be posted that isn't in as much danger of deletion.)
    – Pekka
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:52
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    @Pekka웃: what worries me is the systemic problem of excessive power in areas where the moderator completely lacks knowledge. Someone should at least know what they're talking about before deleting an answer, no? Similar to the Mjölnir hammer, unilateral deletion should require at least X points in at least one of the tags of the question. Feb 8, 2015 at 10:02
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    Coming from Meteor community, I confirm that Mitar's answer provides value to the person who asked the question. Isn't that the point of Stack Overflow? Feb 8, 2015 at 10:09
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    How can using a package be the only possible solution to the problem? Is it written in some magic language that defies the laws of physics in some unique way that makes it impossible to solve in normal code? It may be the best solution as it's generally not a good idea to invent more gunpowder but it can't be the only one.
    – ivarni
    Feb 8, 2015 at 10:26
  • @ivarni One of the core ideas behind Meteor is that most things you would want to do should just be a one command drop in solution, leaving your specific app development up to the user. Sure you could do what the guy was asking without a package but it would be messy and hacky, compared to dropping in a single package. SO YES. In Meteor suggesting a package IS often the best answer. Feb 21, 2015 at 0:55
  • @ChristianStewart My comment should be read in the context of what the post looked like when I posted it: meta.stackoverflow.com/revisions/285614/2 I am not disputing that it might be the best solution but originally it was stated that it was the only solution.
    – ivarni
    Feb 21, 2015 at 8:19

5 Answers 5

-2

Transforming on excluded field in meteor Mongo Collection

I updated the answer.

How to publish a view/transform of a collection in Meteor?

I updated the answer.

How to 'transform' data returned via a Meteor.publish?

There was nothing to be added. Question is asking for no particular details, so answer cannot have them either.

Meteor Collection Transform: is it done on the server or on the client? or it depends

Same. He is asking about general ways to do it, so one general way is my package.

5
  • The first two are much improved; at least, the first one would be an example of self-promotion that I'm comfortable with. The last two are simply unacceptable as they offer no further rationale besides it being a library that they could use.
    – Makoto
    Feb 11, 2015 at 23:42
  • But the question also do not provide anything to talk more about?
    – Mitar
    Feb 12, 2015 at 3:21
  • I'm still not satisfied with your justification on the last two answers, though. There are other solutions that don't just include using your library; it would be better if you provided an example as to why your library actually solves their problem.
    – Makoto
    Feb 13, 2015 at 20:44
  • Maybe they are just bad questions. They ask abstract questions without providing concrete example what they are trying to do. Maybe you should first delete the question, ask the author to improve the question, and then I can work on improving the answer? Or just close them as duplicates of any of other 3 questions? We have 4 questions which are asking practically the same. Instead of me having to come up with examples (and you have my examples in other two questions), that should be just duplicates.
    – Mitar
    Feb 14, 2015 at 0:33
  • The questions look fine to me at first blush; they're related but all subtly different. I wouldn't say that a dupe closure is validated for any of them. Again, my point goes back to providing examples as to why your library solves the specific problem. I'm really not trying to badger you as I have no skin in this, but I only suggest these things as a fellow SO user.
    – Makoto
    Feb 14, 2015 at 0:35
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The answer and several others were deleted because the user copy and pasted the exact same answer on multiple questions. This generates an auto-flag for moderators to review. While, I wasn't the moderator who reviewed the flag, I would have removed all of the answers as well.

An answer should be specific to each question. If you can copy and paste the exact same verbiage on multiple questions, then it should be closed as a duplicate question.

If the user edits the answers to make them specific, without the copy and paste, then the answers could potentially be undeleted.

Also, the answer appears to only be promoting their library. While they mention that they developed it, links do tend to fail on github. It would be preferable if the user included, a bit of code as to how to utilize the library etc. Should that link fail, the answer is basically useless.

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    Ah-ha! Now that's new information. The answers' author definitely needs to take this to heart.
    – Pekka
    Feb 8, 2015 at 13:51
  • This is new information indeed. Did Animuson also mark the questions as duplicate? Feb 8, 2015 at 20:05
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    @DanDascalescu of course not (which should be obvious) and he wouldn't have unless he knew it was a dup. You;'ve already mentioned in your question that his experience does not appear to involve meteor, so he wouldn't be qualified to close duplicates. All he knew was someone posted copy-n-paste answers on multiple posts, which is a problem. Feb 8, 2015 at 22:40
  • So how does one gets answers undeleted now that the issues are addressed? (See my answer in this thread.)
    – Mitar
    Feb 11, 2015 at 5:25
  • @Mitar Typically, you will flag the answer using a custom moderator flag requesting review for undeletion.
    – Taryn
    Feb 11, 2015 at 11:16
  • Wauhahu. This is even more complicated than contributing to Wikipedia. And people complain how bureaucratic that is. Have you even attended Wikimania, their yearly conference? It is amazing how much they work on improving how to work with novice editors to not scare them away from contributing. That reverting changes is not necessary the best way to do that. Useful things to learn for every community-content based project.
    – Mitar
    Feb 11, 2015 at 11:25
  • (I just flagged all of them, linking to this thread as well. Hopefully somebody will have more than few seconds to process my flag.)
    – Mitar
    Feb 11, 2015 at 11:25
  • @Mitar If you don't flag them, then how will we know to review them? We need some sort of indication that you want them un-deleted. A moderator will take a look at the flags in a little bit.
    – Taryn
    Feb 11, 2015 at 11:45
20

Coming from a guy that knows next to peanuts about Meteor, and quite a bit about Stack Overflow, I find myself agreeing with the actions taken on that answer.

Look at it from another angle. If this person hadn't developed it, it'd read a lot like a link-only answer or product promotion answer to me, and I'd downvote/vote to delete without a second thought.

It's my humble opinion that this answer doesn't rise to the caliber of an "answer"; it's just a "use this product, it works!" sort of response.

There are limits for self-promotion in answers, and this doesn't feel like it's satisfied any of the criteria from the above limits. It could have been phrased in a way that actually addressed the issue at hand, some particularly attemptable solutions by someone who may not be in the position to use a third-party library for this particular problem, and then casually interjected the product into the discussion.

I feel the moderation choice on this was correct.

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  • It's a free open-source package, and the affiliation was disclosed, so the self-promotion guidelines are respected. With that behind, it means the answer was deleted because it was insufficiently detailed. To me, that seems a bit harsh, and certainly less conducive to improving SO than a comment requesting the answer to be expanded. Feb 8, 2015 at 9:35
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    First, "use a library I developed" isn't disclosing affiliation. If what you're telling me is true, then it should be made apparent that he's a contributor to the overall Meteor project in the answer. Second, if the answer wasn't sufficiently detailed, of course it's going to get deleted! If we want high caliber answers on this question and answer site, then the answers we feel don't rise to that caliber should be culled where and when possible. My opinion of it was that the actual deletion reason was more "spammy looking self disclosure" more than "terrible answer". Downvote those.
    – Makoto
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:37
  • "if the answer wasn't sufficiently detailed, of course it's going to get deleted!" - ever since I got 10k rep and could see deleted answer, the number of deleted answers that were just insufficiently detailed was perhaps less than 5% of the total deleted answers. Feb 8, 2015 at 9:39
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    Hence, my addendum: my belief is that it was that, on appearance, it was a link-only answer. Terrible answers (or answers that aren't detailed enough) should exclusively be downvoted; we'll let the roomba pick those up for us later.
    – Makoto
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:44
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    I don't see how the answer isn't sufficiently detailed. It's not just saying "lol try this [link]", it's providing context, too.
    – Pekka
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:48
  • When you say you feel the moderation choice was correct, are you also saying it should not be revised?
    – Pekka
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:49
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    @Pekka웃, to you first point, for a guy that doesn't know a lot about Meteor, all I'm getting out of the answer is a link and why they think it's awesome, not how it could be applied to actually solve the problem. There's no samples, no [deep] rationale, not much - hence why I feel like it's not sufficiently detailed. Second, I don't feel that the moderation should be revised. It's fine as-is. If I saw this answer in review, I would likely be taking the same action.
    – Makoto
    Feb 8, 2015 at 9:51
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    But here you have two top users of that tag saying the answer actually solves the problem. So undelete it and give the folks who raised the complaint here (or Mitar himself) the chance to improve it. That's what Meta posts like this are there for, no?
    – Pekka
    Feb 8, 2015 at 10:00
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    Personally I feel the better solution would be to post a completely different answer; one that incorporates the library in question in a way that comes across without seeming that it's only about the advertising aspect of it. It very may well be a solution to the OP's problem as stated, but providing some more meat to it would make it a much more capable answer.
    – Makoto
    Feb 8, 2015 at 10:01
  • ok, I suppose it doesn't really matter whether the original is undeleted and edited, or a new one posted
    – Pekka
    Feb 8, 2015 at 10:23
  • Also, if you don't want to feel like you're poaching rep from the person who posted the original answer, make a new answer as a community wiki. I guess the most important thing is that there is a good answer, not that it has to be that exact one that was deleted.
    – ivarni
    Feb 8, 2015 at 10:30
  • @ivarni: Just saying that he mentioned the library is more than enough, as you are adding everything which makes it an actual answer, instead of just a link. Feb 8, 2015 at 11:31
8
  1. The deletion was probably a reasonable moderation choice. SO is a big site and if something looks like a link-only answer it is in danger of deletion. There are tens of thousands of new posts every day. There is no time to weigh the merits of every individual case. Moderators aren't expected to have domain knowledge.

  2. however, we have two top users of the tag in question saying that this is the best answer and actually solves the problem. That has to count for something, as it's why this site exists. The answer should be undeleted, and edited into a shape that conforms with our rules. Or a new answer could be posted, I suppose.

The lesson should be taken away that when linking to a library, it is good to add as much detail as humanly possible, even if a domain expert would immediately recognize the value of the answer from the start.

5
  • "Moderators aren't expected to have domain knowledge." - maybe moderators should have some domain knowledge. To someone sufficiently experienced with Meteor, Mitar's answer looks good. To someone who knows nothing about Meteor, it looks like spam. There's a systemic failure here in not requiring mods to have any knowledge about what they delete. Feb 8, 2015 at 10:13
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    @Dan in an ideal world, yeah - but given the extreme amounts of traffic on SO, it's not realistic
    – Pekka
    Feb 8, 2015 at 10:15
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    @DanDascalescu It would take a very big squad of moderators to make sure that there's someone with domain knowledge about language/platform/package X for every possible value of X.
    – ivarni
    Feb 8, 2015 at 10:21
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    Editing into shape should be done before deciding to undelete, as it does not seem to currently meet standards. Feb 8, 2015 at 11:27
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    @DanDascalescu Except if the answer is recommending using Meteor, and it's not useful unless you know about Meteor, does it have any value? A good answer should explain about it and how to use it, preferably in the context of the question. Just linking to something is a hint, not an answer. Feb 8, 2015 at 11:40
-9

Not sure why @Animuson did this. I have voted to undelete the answer since it is logical and contextual to the question & foremost provides an answer.

The only reason I can conjure is the language in the answer makes it seem like its spammy. I would disagree with this since Mitar is very heavy on contributing to the Meteor project, the link he used is a package on atmosphere.

I think the answer would not have been deleted if someone else had provided the link as opposed to the author himself. Isn't it better the author has provided an answer with a link to the package?

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    If it ends up undeleted then make sure you rework the answer to turn it into a good one, otherwise it's still at risk of being reflagged or downvoted and deleted. Maybe include an example of what the API does or something.
    – slugster
    Feb 8, 2015 at 11:56

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