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I see a user removing the tag from questions in which it is used to indicate the less UNIX command.

He uses the comment:

Removed less tag. This question is related to less unix command but less tag is about CSS preprocessor (completely different thing)

And some have been accepted so far:

The description of the tag just mentions the CSS info and the excerpt also does:

Less is an open-source stylesheet preprocessor that extends CSS with dynamic behavior such as variables, mixins, operations and functions.

However, to my impression, this is decreasing the utility of the "affected" UNIX questions that used to have this tag.

What should be done? Should we create a less-unix tag? Could this tag also contain information about the UNIX command? (Yes, I know I can simply add it into the excerpt, but I don't know if this is something good to do)

And more generally: what can we do in such circumstances other than leaving it to a single user decision?

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  • There is one retag request addressing the same issue on mse without an answer though...
    – rene
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:27
  • @rene good point. I just did it in stackoverflow.com/q/18028789. Also, I see [lesscss] was merged with [less]: stackoverflow.com/tags/less/synonyms
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:29
  • @rene We have head, tail, ls, cat and many others. I don't think it is convenient (or easy to remember) to just put them together in a higher level. It may be used by us "common" users, but new users would be quite unlikely to know and use this convention.
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:32
  • 1
    the head and tail tag have a common description of the concept and mentions the unix tool.
    – rene
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:36
  • 5
    less should be for the UNIX program. less-css should be for the esoteric CSS preprocessor.
    – mrr
    Commented Apr 1, 2015 at 6:20

6 Answers 6

8

Creating the less-unix tag certainly seems sensible

We then need to do one of two things

  1. Leave the less tag as-is (since it has ~3800 questions already tagged). Assuming that all those tags are for the css version

  2. Also create a less-css tag and migrate the current questions (where applicable). We would then create a generic less tag which references both and requests users choose one

#1 would be less immediately disruptive, but #2 would seem the neater, most consistent solution going forward. I guess it depends how much importance we give to the number of questions currently using that tag.


And to include my comment from below this post, which I think is relevant enough to include in the answer:

We need to be careful not to use the current situation, to justify the current situation. The related tags are mostly [css], but as can be seen in the original question, users are actively de-tagging unix-related questions precisely because the tag currently refers to CSS.

We have no idea what the mix would be if the tag included both, or had been originally 'claimed' by the unix utility rather than the CSS preprocessor.

In my opinion we should act as though both tags are empty and set them up how we feel they should be setup, which is likely to involve a generic less tag, with specific less-css and less-bash tags.

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  • 1
    Checking stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/less , in the "Related tags" I see mostly [css], maybe less could be kept for CSS
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:34
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    @fedorqui - we need to be careful not to use the current situation, to justify the current situation. The related tags are mostly [css], but as can be seen in the original question, users are actively de-tagging unix-related questions because the tag currently refers to CSS. We have no idea what the mix would be if the tag included both, or had been originally 'claimed' by the unix utility rather than the CSS preprocessor.
    – Jon Story
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:37
  • You are absolutely right
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:38
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    Tags are expected to refer to exactly one thing. Having a valid tag refer to more than one is a bad idea because users subscribed to that tag will have to filter out questions that aren't actually about their specialty.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 26, 2015 at 15:46
  • @BoltClock then, what should be done?
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jan 26, 2015 at 15:57
  • @fedorqui: Tagging with [less-unix] of course Commented Mar 28, 2015 at 0:47
  • @MooingDuck this "of course" does not sound that obvious to me. I've gone through multiple posts talking about this and I cannot find a standard pattern. Could you post an answer with proper references of what to do? I would be glad to do what you think but if it is what the community decided.
    – fedorqui
    Commented Mar 30, 2015 at 15:02
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    less should be for the UNIX program. less-css for the CSS preprocessor. Why should something that's been around for more than 35 years bow down to a CSS preprocessor that's barely been around for 6 years?
    – mrr
    Commented Apr 1, 2015 at 6:20
  • You may be right that justifying the status quo by appeal to the status quo is not a good idea. But deciding what to do at any given point by ignoring the current state of affairs is an even worse idea: part of any sound decision about what to do about something now, given the existence of a status quo, is weighing the relative costs of different paths. And those costs almost always vary with the status quo. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 14:25
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    @MilesRout: It is not a question of bowing down to another. If less should be for UNIX program and not CSS preprocessor, it is fine but that should be done with proper re-tagging or migration of all existing questions. Otherwise the new tag for less-css will not show up in the suggested tags list and will only lead to more confusion for those creating questions.
    – Harry
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 17:08
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    This is just unacceptable. You can't just steal a tag from a subject that has absolutely dominated amount of Q&As posted under that tag. Commented May 7, 2015 at 17:21
  • @Harry why it wouldn't show in the suggested tags list? You just need to type "less" in the tag section and it will appear everything that has the string "less" in order of popularity.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:19
  • @Braiam: I wasn't referring to the ones that appear after typing something but rather the default suggested list given while creating question. That, if I am not mistaken is done based on keywords from description and the popularity of identified matches. Once less appears ther, very few will bother trying something else.
    – Harry
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:36
  • I remember seeing a default suggestion earlier but have to check because I haven't created any question on SO recently.
    – Harry
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:38
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    @Harry oh, those, yeah, I know from where you are coming from. My suggestion would be, in that case, synonym less to lesscss (backwards of how it's now). On the other hand, the tag suggestion can fail too, as shown on the linked question..
    – Braiam
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 20:48
0

I personally untagged some of these questions and @fedorqui asked me to explain my point here.

As of now, the less tag description is only about css now:

Less is an open-source stylesheet preprocessor that extends CSS with dynamic behavior such as variables, mixins, operations and functions.

Also, you say

this is decreasing the utility of the "affected" UNIX questions that used to have this tag.

But look at the questions that are tagged with less. They are all about the css preprocessor. Just compare:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/css+less (2126 question tagged css and less)

with this:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/unix+less (8 questions tagged unix and less)

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    Thanks for posting here your point of view about the topic. As Jon Story points, "we need to be careful not to use the current situation, to justify the current situation". [less] is indeed more broadly in CSS than, also because css is a tag with 10 times more questions. The thing here is that removing [less] from the [unix] questions without adding any different one is making them less findable. I would currently advocate for adding a UNIX description in the [less] tag so that they can also be there.
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 13:04
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    @fedorqui: Tags should only be for one thing. They should be split, the Unix should go into [less-unix]. There's an argument that since [less] is ambiguous, the CSS should go into [less-CSS] and [less] itself burninated. Commented Mar 28, 2015 at 0:48
  • There are also 26 questions tagged linux+less and 18 questions tagged bash+less. I wonder if such questions should be migrated to SU. Commented Jul 3, 2015 at 7:57
  • I see this is coming again. Maybe it is worth retagging to less-unix instead of just removing the tag. Otherwise, some content is lost without any benefit.
    – fedorqui
    Commented May 3, 2017 at 9:12
-1

I read this for the first time. And yes, indeed i removed the less tag from unix / linux related questions. My motivation was the currently wiki text (without the addition less is a unix command too).

When thinking about, i wonder why commands (as less for unix is) should have a tag in the first place. When allowing commands as an tag you should get many ambiguous tags.

All languages, operation systems and so on, will have commands, keywords and so on.

Who should claim print, run, compile, execute, color?

Personally i think that when you find a reason to tag a single command for a language, operation system, program, system or shell you should tag it with main subject together, like bash-less, less-compile, php-print, windows-run and so on.

-4

I believe it is worth keeping it logical and consistent with what was discussed here.

So I just introduced the UNIX command description into the excerpt and the wiki information:

I will try to add the tag again in all those questions in which it was previously removed.

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    Wait, what? That question refers to [less] as the stylesheet tool, not the UNIX command.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 26, 2015 at 15:53
  • OMG this was a big appreciation mistake I did :S But however the idea is the same: since it's been commented here, I kind of see logical to proceed with the change of the tag info.
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jan 26, 2015 at 15:56
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    The changes pointed to here seem more likely to sow confusion that to do anyone any good. What possible good is gained by making a tag refer not to one topic but two quite different topics? The two programs named 'less' have nothing whatever to do with each other; making the same tag refer to both of them does nothing but reduce the value of the site. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 14:30
-4

Yes, removing irrelevant and misused tags is a good thing to do; the user in question should be thanked for helping make the site a better place.

If there is currently no tag that can be used (as opposed to misused) to identify questions about the Unix 'less' program, and if that is considered a problem, then it would be better to solve the problem by making a new tag for the Unix 'less' program than to introduce a new problem by making the existing 'less' tag systematically ambiguous.

Once there are two tags for the two programs called 'less' (ignoring for the moment the indefinitely many other programs that may share the name), it's possible for users to find the questions they want by finding the correct tag. The question of how the two tags should be spelled is not without interest, but it has much less importance than the principle that a given tag should identify a given thing, not a random collection of things united by having been given the same or similar names.

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  • 2
    Prior to that user changes, you could say [less] + [unix] to look for UNIX less questions. Now you cannot. So yes, it is interesting to look for an improvement and we have to thank people willing to do so, but this specific change did decrease the searchability of those questions. I guess the desirable thing would be to create less-unix or something related, but I am still looking for a canonical way to handle this (and unfortunately I cannot start a bounty to do so).
    – fedorqui
    Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 15:51
  • Making an existing tag less useful by making it designate two entirely different things will almost never be a good way forward. And if, as you and others have observed, people who monitor the CSS less tag have been actively removing the erroneous tags, what are the chances that the search you describe will actually pull up all the questions about Unix 'less'? No one here has said or is saying that what you saw as a problem was not a problem. Some people including me are saying that making a new problem does not count as a good solution. Commented Apr 3, 2015 at 17:33
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    The crux of the matter is that some guy knowing CSS took over the tag-wiki, and others used it as justification to untag all questions about the pager, and now there's a poisonous synonym. Instead, a proper disambiguation should have been done. Commented May 7, 2015 at 17:42
  • @fedorqui that's not entirely true. Some of the questions are tagged linux+less and some even bash+less, so the search quality is arguable. Commented Jul 3, 2015 at 8:03
  • @DmitryGrigoryev so what? It is still better than not having the tag.
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jul 3, 2015 at 8:04
  • All I'm saying the tag as it is today is of limited use. Creating someting like less-css and less-posix seems like solution. The less tag as it is calls for misuse (i.e. if we keep less and less-posix, people will still use less for both). Commented Jul 3, 2015 at 8:11
  • @DmitryGrigoryev (note I didn't get a warning of your message, use @ to refer someone) well, this is one of the points of view I've seen in this question, but others suggest others approaches. It is still unclear what is best to do, I even flagged for moderation attention to know what is best but nothing was said. So I guess it will still be a bit of a jungle in the [less] tag.
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jul 3, 2015 at 9:37
-5

So let's be fair. Most of people here that say "that's OK, let's kick Less language out of " are those UNIX guys who had never heard of Less before. That's actually fine and expected. Now the problem is that none of these "voters" did not perform any activity under [less] in context of the less-command. But those who were actually sitting at [less] recently (Harry, Bass Jobsen, me) were not even aware of this discussion... Now to be honest, I don't care how Less-language tag will be called, but it's really funny to see the random way such things go.

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  • I don't see anybody here pretending to kick css's less out of [less]. The debate here is about including UNIX's less or not in such tag.
    – fedorqui
    Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:32
  • 1
    @fedorqui But now they try to do it there using this thread as the carte blanche. Commented May 7, 2015 at 19:45
  • I see you noticed I created less-unix. Thanks for using it now!
    – fedorqui
    Commented May 5, 2017 at 9:25

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