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This self-answered question was posted just before Christmas: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27587378/complex-bow-and-arrow-design-with-a-dart-board-and-quiver-css-only, which prompted John Saunders to post about it here on Meta thanks to a failed review audit: Disagree with Review Audit for New Posts.

Here is the question:

How do I go about designing an exact bow and arrow with the dart board and quiver like the one below using CSS only?

enter image description here

Suggestion(s) for improvement(s) are welcome and appreciated.

When I got to the question a couple of days ago it was closed and already had 1 delete vote. Upon reviewing it I also decided to vote to delete it. Afterwards I began writing a comment on the question explaining why I'd voted to deleted it as I felt it was more suitable as a blog post on an external website than a question here on StackOverflow, however before I could submit it someone else voted to delete it and it was subsequently removed.

Now, however, it appears to be back after having been undeleted yesterday. Furthermore, it now has 3 reopen votes.

I get that the answers posted to this question have received a lot of votes, but this question isn't at all helpful to any future reader. Nobody is ever going to think to themselves I need to draw a bow and arrow shooting at a dart board at a very specific angle - I know, let me search for one on Stack Overflow!

At best this question and answer combination gives an example of how it is possible to draw an image with CSS without actually using images. It's nothing more than a blog post, but a blog post done in a way to farm Stack Overflow reputation. This is why I feel it should be deleted as it simply doesn't belong here.

As it currently stands and ignoring daily limits, the user who posted the question and answer will have gained a total of 450+ reputation, despite the question having a current score of -24. Because the question has been down voted so many times, the user has also earned the Reversal gold badge - which only 195 people have currently obtained on SO.

At the very least, can it be locked?

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  • 14
    Totally agree - that question/answer should be a tutorial on someone's blog
    – Clive
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:04
  • 3
    meta.stackexchange.com/q/237263/165773 -- "a close war would count as a content dispute and therefore should be locked..."
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:11
  • 16
    The author of the question actually requested that it stay deleted. I think they've learned their lesson of not using the self-Q&A feature for extremely broad tutorial answers to toy questions. Personally I think these "how do I art in CSS?" questions need to just go away.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 11:38
  • 3
    I feel like I'm forcefully being played chicken over and over again. Please STOP for f sake! I'm done with this, I'm not interested in playing this game anymore. The post now has been deleted and reopened twice.
    – Weafs.py
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 12:15
  • @BoltClock - "Personally I think these "how do I art in CSS?" questions need to just go away." - I agree, but some people here on SO prefer CSS over svg no matter how lengthy the markup and CSS code could get. Sometimes, I get downvotes for posting svg answers on css-shapes tag posts even though it is way more easier and simpler than CSS solutions.
    – Weafs.py
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 12:23
  • 9
    @chipChocolate.py: As much as I sympathize with your predicament, I don't think this is about CSS vs SVG. This is about tutorials thinly veiled as self-answered questions.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 12:36
  • 15
    @chipChocolate.py considering you were one of the people who voted to undelete it just now, I don't think you can really complain about being annoyed at this getting deleted and undeleted. Unfortunately only moderators have the ability to completely lock posts (and thus preventing them from being deleted or undeleted - which is ultimately why I've posted this here today). Your answer is great, and I'd love to read something like that on a blog, but it's really not fitting for Stack Overflow. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 12:39
  • 8
    While this is being hashed out, I'm locking the question to prevent the back and forth delete, undelete.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 12:43
  • 2
    Would this kind of question be accetable on Code Golf?
    – Rachel
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:15
  • 2
    @Rachel Yes. It is technically a code-golfy question.
    – Compass
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:24
  • 2
    @Rachel No, not a good fit as it currently stands. There's not enough of a specification, no objective winning criterion, etc. It's maybe possible that it could be heavily edited and migrated over to us, but I doubt it.
    – tckmn
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:00
  • 4
    @chipChocolate.py Thank you for your contribution. I'm sorry it was so poorly welcomed. Since this content is a great addition to Stack Overflow, I have reposted it. You're welcome to either repost your answer as yourself (and earn reputation) or wash your hands of it. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:21

4 Answers 4

49

I deleted the question. I'll get into my specific reasons for doing so shortly, I first want to touch on what has always been a very sticky subject, which is self-answered questions. We do support asking and answering your own question when you hit that moment, that epiphany, that brief second in time when everything in the universe aligns and bends to your will that code finally compiled and your voodoo register hacking actually worked. But these things have to:

  • State and solve a very specific problem
  • Be open for other answers, too - because if you hit it, so did someone else
  • Be accepted by folks by indicating that they found it useful

These are just like any other question, even if the premise is to lead right into an answer. What lacked here was impetus that was distinguishable from showmanship. And that's really the key. We completely support posting something that you learned 'blog style' if you honestly feel that it will save your fellow programmers a few hours of precious time.

If you're thinking:

I want other people to learn this experience I just had

Then go ahead and write a self-answered post

If you're thinking:

I want to show this to other people because it's cool and interesting

... then you're probably better off writing something on your personal blog and sharing it on Reddit. Heck, share it in chat if you want instant feedback (and the folks you're chatting with are receptive to you posting a link).

As the person that is vested the most in this particular example would rather it be gone and done with, I've gone ahead and deleted it. If that makes you mad because you think there's something of value that has been lost, find another way to post it, one that states a smaller, realistic problem and goes on to solve it.

That said ...

Please don't beat on folks just for self-answering, if we didn't want them doing that, we wouldn't have the feature right there in the UI for asking a question. If they post an inappropriate question, then deal with it as an inappropriate / off-topic question, leave the fact that they also took time to answer it out of the equation. If you can't shut something down based on the merits of the question alone, then it probably doesn't need shutting.

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    I liked this - one that states a smaller, realistic problem and goes on to solve it very much. I think the dart board from that question for example as a stand alone part might better help people (not saying that whole question wasn't helpful or otherwise) because developing patterns is probably something people would encounter on a regular basis.
    – Harry
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 13:24
  • 5
    @Harry Yeah, there seems to be quite a bit of useful stuff there, it's just unfortunately compiled in a way that doesn't work well for Stack Overflow. That doesn't make it less awesome, just less of a good fit, as written. I'd love to see the clever bits there disseminate into more lasting (practical) artifacts.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 13:42
  • 2
    @TimPost I agree with not beating the folks just for self-answering. At the same time, I can't count the times when the OP posted a question that was plausibly answerable, only to post a terse answer later showing that the problem was not expressed in the question, even though it appears so. Readers give the benefit of the doubt and assume that even if they cannot spot an actual problem there is in fact one to be solved. That the problem was not in the question is confirmed only once the OP posts the answer indicating that there was no problem in the question.
    – Louis
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 13:46
  • @Louis I know it's difficult, but try to look at each question individually, this allows you to save room for the times where people actually get things right without bias :) But I do hear what you're saying.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 13:47
  • 1
    "These are just like any other question..." -- worth noting that there were plenty prior discussions here and at MSE emphasizing this point and covering it in depth, starting with Tried to add a self-answered wiki-post, but just got downvotes
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 14:13
  • 3
    My vote is to migrate it to Code Golf. There's plenty of gold there; it would be nice if we could figure out a way to preserve it.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:35
  • 2
    @RobertHarvey Currently not a good fit for us though, see my comment on the question.
    – tckmn
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:01
  • 3
    This is absurd. If the original author had deleted their question or answer before this meta controversy, we'd have undeleted it immediately and reprimanded the author for self-vandalism. This thread should not have been deleted. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:19
  • 2
    @Gilles I don't think deletion has ever been called out as self-vandalism. Destroying a post by replacing it with gibberish is vandalism. To help prevent rage-delete, there are rules about what can be self-deleted by a normal user. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:25
  • 3
    @Gilles removing something that the community seems to overwhelmingly object to is not vandalism of your posts, in fact we even have a badge for that.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 2:30
  • 1
    @TimPost If someone deletes their answers scoring +41 and +24 which are not redundant with other answers or jokes gone viral, I'll be very tempted to undelete it, Disciplined badge or not. Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 2:33
  • @Gilles I deleted my selfanswered post which had several views because it was getting on the way of people having a similar yet not the same problem. The issue described in the post isn't fit in the scope of SO (since it's not reproducible) and was actively harmful, so I decided to just delete it (which was a chore, since I had to unaccept my answer, delete the answer, so I can delete the question)
    – Braiam
    Commented May 3, 2015 at 22:32
15

Huh. I completely missed this discussion earlier. And now the question is gone. What a bummer.

Anyway, I don't like the other answers here because they don't directly answer your question, which is a good one: why did this question achieve the rare distinction of being not only undeleted - twice - but nearly reopened?

Simple: folks were voting to reopen the question because they liked the answers it attracted. That's their prerogative, the essence of what it means to have a community-moderated site: folks get to determine what they collectively want by exercising the privileges they've earned to do so. Usually, that disallows questions like this; occasionally though, they pass a nebulous bar that allows them to remain. Years ago, Joel Coehoorn described this as "winning the lottery":

What's allowed or not allowed is community enforced, in such a way that the community might decide a given question is good enough to leave alone, even if it breaks a rule or two.

However, such exceptions are rare. Having one slip by is akin to winning the lottery — there are even "prizes", in the sense that these questions often earn you a badge or two. And just like the lottery, there's no point complaining about it when you don't win. Also like the lottery, I hope most people here are smarter than to try to play.

We can trade rationales for why a given question should or shouldn't belong here. We can point to rules or guidelines that back up our arguments. But ultimately, the judgement on what stays or goes is passed by the folks using the site - you, but not just you, me, but not just me - both of us and everyone else who cares enough to express their opinion.

While I respect the author's desire to withdraw his question, I wish he hadn't. I would've liked to have seen what the final verdict was...

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  • 1
    "Winning the lottery" is an... interesting way to describe getting voted down to -28.
    – nobody
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 2:34
  • 6
    +41 on the answer, badges for both... Ask any winner, the lotto ain't all roses either.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 3:00
-15

Is it a question? Yes.

Is it about programming? This one is debatable: it's somewhere at the border between graphical design and programming. If this was a pure arrangement of shapes, I'd call it not programming. But there are transformations and relative placement, and Stack Overflow tends to be pretty liberal with getting web pages to look a certain way even if that's reached through pure markup, and in the two meta threads about this question this point hasn't been raised yet. So programming it is.

Is it answerable? Yes.

Will the answer be useful to future readers? Of course. It's a fine example of what you can do with CSS3. It's far more useful than the thousands of debug-my-code questions that get asked and answered on Stack Overflow every day.

Therefore the question should remain open on Stack Overflow.

How much effort went into the question is irrelevant. Closure is about whether a question is answerable. If you feel the question is boring or lacks effort, downvote.

Since the original question has been deleted and locked by a moderator, in the interest of salvaging this useful, on-topic content, I have reposted the question and its answers. The original authors of the answers are welcome to repost their answers, I'll delete my copies. Of course, should sanity prevail and the original question be undeleted, my question can be deleted.

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  • 2
    There are many questions that meet your criteria that are still a poor fit for SO. This would seem to be one of them, as it is far too broad. The exceptionally long answer would seem to prove this opinion. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:22
  • 1
    @BradleyDotNET Close reasons are meant to figure out what questions are not answerable. Having a good answer refutes the judgement that the question might be too broad. If the question has an answer, it isn't unanswerable. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:24
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    I respectfully disagree. The close reasons guide as to what questions are not a good fit, or to put it in a less friendly way, are not allowed. True, some of that regards "answerableness". But almost every too broad question could be answered, given someone had enough time to write the answer. If you take issue with that close reason, that sounds like a different discussion. For example, I could ask "How do I write a program to simulate traffic flow". It however, is a terrible SO question, though I could write such a program and post an answer, thus meeting your criteria. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:27
  • 6
    @Gilles "Close reasons are meant to figure out what questions are not answerable." False. Unanswerable questions are just a subset of the questions that should be closed. The text for "too broad" is "There are either too many possible answers [...]". And the issue with opinion based questions is not that answers cannot be given but that the answers that can be given are not those that the SO community wants to curate.
    – Louis
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:31
  • 1
    @Louis No, really. Unanswerable questions are what the close reasons attempt to capture. Primarily opinion-based questions, for example, cannot be answered in a useful way, because the answers would reflect only the opinion of the answerer rather than generally applicable solutions. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:38
  • 3
    @Gilles "unanswerable" and "not answerable in a useful way" or two terribly different things. The question in consideration is the latter.
    – Seth
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:39
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    @Seth I fail to see how the answers weren't useful. They had a pretty high score, too — I know score isn't a very good indication and can mean “I like this” rather than “this is useful”, but it is supposed to reflect usefulness. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:47
  • 2
    @Gilles It looks to me like someone asking "How do I build my dream house?" and then posting a huge answer about how they did that. Will someone find it useful? I'm sure they will, but that does not make it a good fit for Stack Overflow. Even viagra ads must be useful to someone. (please be aware I am not comparing this question to spam, but rather the fact that just because it is useful does not make it good for our site)
    – Seth
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:52
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    @Seth If they actually manage to fit it all in 30000 characters, and they describe more precisely what their dream house entails, it could make a fine Q&A pair for Home Improvement. Not for SO, of course. Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 0:08
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    @Gilles I truly think that such a question would not be well received there. Its, well, too broad. There is so much that goes into that, that even if they could fit it all, it wouldn't be useful because you would have to sift through everything in order to find the tiny morsel you were interested in. Thats not what SE is about. These sites encourage focused questions and answers so that a user can quickly determine if it is applicable, and what the solution is. "Too Broad" doesn't mean "unanswerable" (though it can), it means "too broad to fit in this format" Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 0:12
-30

Question:

The CSS Bow and Arrow question is now on the verge of being reopened after having previously been deleted. Why?

Answer:

That's the way things ought to be in a healthy community.

Reasoning:

We should all step back and be horrified at the progress of this discussion. It documents the tragedy that is happening on Stack Overflow. It signifies that the downfall of Stack Overflow is already happening, in the same way it happened to countless other Internet communities since the 1990s.

  • New users are not respected. They can't possibly be smarter or cooler than us. If they threaten our status or begin obtaining popularity quicker than we did, it is obviously just showmanship.

  • If question X is too interesting, or doesn't fit with what we think of as a question, then it belongs on someone's personal blog, not Stack Overflow. Never mind that amazing things are rare, and that we should be refreshed when they show up. We still don't want them if they don't fit inside of our box, and it's more important that people lesser than us "learn their lesson."

  • People are persecuted, intimidated, and harassed into thinking that they should actually delete their own fantastic work.

The result is that everyone has forgotten the most important point: Don't we all believe that someone should be able to read and respond to a diverse population of questions and answers, including those both useful and interesting?

Or do we believe that no one else but a privileged few should be able to read the CSS Bow and Arrow question, and everyone else in the world should be prohibited from doing so because we have decided to delete it?

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    You're arguing several straw men here. The person who posted the question is not a new user, "too interesting" is not the problem, and your use of the word "harassment" is misguided: nobody is forced to endure any kind of treatment here.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:28
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey I haven't even been able to see the question and answer. We as a community have decided I (and everyone else) should not be able to see it. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:40
  • 3
    How can you comment about something you don't even have access to?
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:42
  • 1
    That's the choice of the community, not mine. I even searched Google for a cached copy before answering. But the Stack Overflow community has censored this material from the internet. That seems like a problem to me. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:42
  • 1
    I've added the original question to the post here, so that you and other sub-10K members have access to it. Now there's just the issue of your straw men.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:43
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    Ah, censorship. That didn't take long. There's no expectation of free speech at Stack Exchange. Stack Exchange is a private website, and has the right to remove any material at its discretion. So do the community members, using the tools Stack Exchange has provided them. If you want to make a reasonable argument, argue for the preservation of the material instead of throwing around terms like "censorship" and "harassment."
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:45
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    Sorry. I was interrupted by a phone call and the real world. I'll look the question over and adjust as needed. You're right about censorship, though. I'll give you that one already. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:55
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    This is such an inflammatory answer (seriously, "persecuted"?) that I honestly feel you should just delete it and write a much calmer response to the question. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 22:12
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    Let's see: New users aren't... the poster has 12k rep so clearly this is in no way applicable to the problem at hand at all. Second one: huh? So basically "if something doesn't qualify as a question according to SO rules it's closed" is a problem now? Last one: now you've just lost me, there was not a single thing that would qualify as harassment in any answer or comment on the original post afais. Three points of two are absolutely not applicable and one which is a prime example in circular reasoning.
    – Voo
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 22:17
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    @JosephMyers You've essentially just made up your own definition of a "good question". Stack Overflow has very specific definitions about what makes a question good - you can find them scattered around Meta and the Help Center. It doesn't match your definition very much at all. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 22:24
  • 9
    @JosephMyers And in five months amassed 12k reputation. They clearly understand how the site works and what is expected of them.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 22:36
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    I have to congratulate you. I've very rarely seen anyone post something that was so far off the mark here; you missed very badly on all three of your bullet points. Good for you!
    – Ken White
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:03
  • 6
    There are a lot of us here that care about SO. Posting an inflammatory, totally incorrect and inaccurate answer here at Meta doesn't make any points other than that you've managed to be 100% incorrect in everything you've written in regards to this question and SO in general. 1) The user isn't new (5 months/12K+ rep is not new by any standard), 2) The user's question was inappropriate here as judged by the community guidelines. 3) No, that's not persecution, and it would indeed be a great deal of effort for the user's own blog post; that doesn't affect whether or not it's appropriate here.
    – Ken White
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:26
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    And 4) You admittedly wrote your answer without having even a modicum of information about the post, and having not even seen it, which means you posted it lacking any information at all; you made up your points out of thin air, and managed to miss the mark on every single one of them..
    – Ken White
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:29
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    Which means, as I said previously, that you posted it based on no factual information. If you're going to accuse us of being so unfair, cruel and unreasonable, at least base it on actual information you can prove rather than bits and pieces of randomly-selected comments and innuendo. You chose to judge the majority of the members of this community based on information you did not personally observe, and as I've previously said, you failed in accuracy in all regards.
    – Ken White
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 0:08

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