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ADDED: I am at a loss to understand why this issue is not being reviewed by the site admins and moderators. Concerns here have been expressed in volume throughout the community. Please re-read my points and review my references for a clear interpretation.

UPDATED: Specifically, and I have noted below in the paragraph beginning with MY SUGGESTIONS. Some questions clearly are specific enough to be left open and not removed. Yet they are still being CLOSED and or REMOVED. Can the process for this be changed as suggested below? Perhaps a specific moderator classification so that questions can be thoroughly analyzed for acceptance.

I hope this is the correct place to post this concern. It was suggested in SO Help to use the Meta site for this purpose. I have noted a number of Closed posts in Stack Overflow applying the Off Topic rule.

To note, this one pending close.

I fully understand the need to push content out that is off topic of not specific. But I point out in my comment on the above post that the user specifically listed a single browser. Among other key points that reveals the value of the question.

I recently had a specific question of my own closed, and before I could fully address the issue it was removed. Mine specifically focused on ASP.net's file upload control, and applying an anti-virus scan to the inbound file. This surely seems specific to me and the many visitors.

Google cache reference to post.

I believe the question complied with section listed in SO help...

 **What topics can I ask about here?**

 3rd bullet

 **•software tools commonly used by programmers; and is**

So my concern was to ask if there was some recent push to apply this rule, and little did I suspect it was an overwhelming complaint from the community...

community echoing concerns of misuse of rule or applied

the feeling that I am not alone in this matter is of no relief at this point. I had hoped that there was some push to implement a clean up, and that bringing this observation to light might quell some of the push or bring a bit more scrutiny to the process, but it appears this is an ongoing concern. There are dozens of similar posts throughout the site.

My suggestion is that this rule be redefined and more discretely given to specific reviewers for a more discerning evaluation. Increase the vote count required. Remove the single moderator vote removal/closure. Allow lower reputation points to reopen a question.

The SO community has clearly spoken about this being an issue so Please Respond in Kind with some sort of fix.

Best Regards and Happy New Year.

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  • 7
    The question you point to was not closed using a custom off-topic reason. Use of rude or abusive off-topic reasons was the complaint in that linked Meta question, so that's not entirely related to what you're arguing about here.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Jan 8, 2015 at 16:36
  • 4
    What exactly do you want to fix? At most, this question just seems like a rant against closing questions that are about tools used by programmers. But the only example you provided is a tool request, which is very different. Jan 8, 2015 at 16:36
  • 7
    This question reads like a bunch of random thoughts compiled into a single post. Could you try organizing them better and constructing a question that identifies a clear problem that you're targeting?
    – animuson StaffMod
    Jan 8, 2015 at 16:38
  • 1
    So you're saying that it should be harder to close questions because a question of yours was closed; and as an example you've linked to a post that most certainly deserves to be closed as evidence of inappropriate closure?
    – Servy
    Jan 8, 2015 at 16:40
  • 2
    @htm11h what rule needs redefined? That is what is unclear to me. You talk about "software tools commonly used by programmers" as a problem. Is that what you want redefined? Redefined how? What types of questions were about tools wrongfully closed. Please note asking to recommend a tool is not a question about a tool, which is what your 1 example SO question was closed for. Jan 8, 2015 at 16:51
  • 3
    @htm11h because questions asking to recommend tools are off-topic. You must have stopped reading at the 3rd bullet in the help center. If you go to #4 under Some questions are still off-topic, even if they fit into one of the categories listed above:, you will see the following: "Questions asking us to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Overflow as they tend to attract opinionated answers and spam. Instead, describe the problem and what has been done so far to solve it." Jan 8, 2015 at 16:59
  • 1
    @htm11h but regardless of how vague or specific your request is, it is still a request and hence off-topic. There are sites in which tool recommendations are on-topic, but Stack Overflow is not one of them. They used to be on-topic, but aren't anymore. There is an entire site for software recommendations in which your question may be on-topic. But you should read the question quality guidelines first. Jan 8, 2015 at 17:11
  • 2
    "the question was asking for software tools to solve this if available." You already told us yourself that you were asking for software tools. Which is expressly off-topic. I'm sure you can re-word your question, if this is the case (I can't see deleted questions, but you can see your own.) so that it is no longer asking for a software tool and instead showing us what you have tried and how you can achieve your goal.
    – Kendra
    Jan 8, 2015 at 17:13
  • 4
    The effect of all the ALL CAPS, Bold, and BOLD CAPS in this question means that the plain-old text is really more emphasized, and the rest is very difficult to read. Jan 8, 2015 at 17:17
  • 5
    I see a couple people asking you to clarify what the goal of this question was. Bold text tends to make things less clear, unless used very judiciously. I would recommend that instead of trying to physically 'highlight' words/sentences, you reduce the text to what's important and relevant, and reword things to make the post more clear. Jan 8, 2015 at 17:23
  • 2
    Remove the single moderator vote removal/closure. How are moderators supposed to immediately close spam questions then? Allow lower reputation points to reopen a question. Lower-reputation users may not be familiar with the nuances of the site, why give them a privilege they may not understand or may misuse? Besides, questions can be flagged for moderator review to be opened, and editing them adds them to the Re-open queue. Jan 8, 2015 at 17:43
  • 2
    don't use bing, use google, use cached version. Voila webcache.googleusercontent.com/…
    – Patrice
    Jan 8, 2015 at 17:59
  • 4
    and.... reading the actual question, you are indeed asking for us to recommend you a tool. No matter how specific that actual question is (limited to asp.net, whatever), it IS a software/tool recommendation, something Stack doesn't allow. I don't know what more there is to say
    – Patrice
    Jan 8, 2015 at 18:01
  • 4
    To expand upon what @Patrice said: In your "Not software-rec" question, you do not specifically ask for a software. I will give you that. However, when you expanded your question, instead of showing us code you had tried to make work, you listed different software tools that had not worked for you which implied you were looking for another free software. Greatly implied, I should say. That is why your question was closed and deleted as "asking for a recommendation": It read as though all you were interested in was a software that would work, making it a bad example for your case.
    – Kendra
    Jan 8, 2015 at 18:09
  • 6
    'Thousands'? I suspect that the X site users who have made similar comments are outnumbered by Y users who just want to be left alone to downvote the bad questions and spend time answering good questions. Jan 8, 2015 at 18:35

1 Answer 1

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First, as I stated in my comment above, you're complaining about two different things. The two Stack Overflow questions you point to were closed because they were deemed software recommendation questions. The Meta.SO post you're pointing to was about inappropriate custom off-topic close reasons. Contrary to your assertion, I did indeed read that Meta post (I refer you to the highest-voted answer there).

The standard for what is considered a tool recommendation question has tightened in recent years. Sometimes I do feel that close reason is applied too liberally, but it is there by the decision of the community. Community members decided that these questions were more trouble than they were worth, based on the amount of arguments, spam, and other troubling content they encouraged.

Stack Exchange is taking a stab at finding a home for more targeted versions of these questions over at Software Recommendations. I hope that experiment works out, because it would be nice to see a place where these could exist if presented correctly.

I looked at the first question you link to and took a stab at rewriting it to be less about a recommendation and more about a process. I've reopened it as a result. Take a look at that to see if that makes sense.

To your specific suggestions:

My suggestion is that this rule be redefined and more discretely given to specific reviewers for a more discerning evaluation.

What rule? The only rule is the wording provided in the close reason. People who have the ability to vote to close must decide if that wording fits problems they see with a question.

As far as the guidance on what is on topic, note that the wording is not just "software tools commonly used by programmers", but is actually "software tools commonly used by programmers; and is a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development". Also, allowing questions about things like development tools does not mean that open-ended questions asking about which tool to use are a good fit for the site.

Increase the vote count required.

As it is, many people feel it's too hard for the community to close bad questions. The community can't keep up with the flood of bad material hitting the site. The five votes currently required strikes a bit of a balance between making it practical to close bad questions and avoiding one or two bad decisions from condemning an otherwise good post.

Remove the single moderator vote removal/closure.

This is effectively rendered useless by our capability to delete any post with a single vote. If you removed that as well, there is no point to even having elected moderators since we won't be able to do our job. Have fun with all the spam, trolling, and nonsense that we won't be able to close or delete on sight.

We were elected by the community with the understanding that they trust us with these responsibilities. Any moderator's vote can be called out and questioned at any point. As I did above, any moderator can override any other moderator's vote and the community can override certain votes of ours.

Yes, we do make mistakes, but I can tell you from experience the community is not afraid to challenge us about those.

Allow lower reputation points to reopen a question.

We do this already. The Reopen Votes queue allows for a broader range of community members to review posts for reopening.

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  • thanks for an appropriate response. I certainly take some blame for trying to get my point across without spending due diligence in writing a well scripted statement. Often the case with a day job. I feel that a moderator’s ability to see through this in many posts is probably the most important part or a review. The SPAM is easy to detect as are other post types. But the granular critique of a valid focused type question, despite the issues debated here, are again my point. Perhaps a request to REWORD QUESTION, rather than a direct threat to CLOSE, would resolve this issue.
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 19:34
  • (con't) I truly do appreciate all that I have learned from this site, and appreciate the efforts to preserve its value, but I must again point out that many have issues with the CLOSE process of non SPAM type, or Off Topic type questions. And perhaps a new forum will more easily direct the questions your position stands on.
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 19:35
  • 4
    @htm11h Just a word here: When your questions are put "On hold", that is a call to action to the author of the question to edit their question and help it fall in line with the site rules. In other words, close votes and "On Hold" status are your "Reword question" requests. The only issue is, instead of doing this, a lot of users complain or explain in the comments, and they don't spend the time to edit the question. Once you edit the question, it pops it into the reopen queue (If the edit is significant enough), and people can vote to reopen your now on-topic question. :)
    – Kendra
    Jan 8, 2015 at 19:38
  • @Kendra understood, a point I did not make was that did not fully happen to my question. And when I found other with the same issue I decided to post. As is probably very common, this vote to close occurred while I was away from the project. A minimal edit should have placed in the reopen queue, yet I had not yet returned to the project to get back up to speed. At any rate, it was removed before any final actions on my part, today after opening this discussion.
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 19:41
  • 1
    @htm11h As I've said before, deletion of the question is not the end! You found the link to it through a search engine and posted it in a comment above- Use that link to get back to it, edit it into shape, and (Brad, please correct me if I am wrong on this point.) when you feel it meets the site guidelines, you can flag your question as "Other" and explain that you have edited your question to meet site standards and would like it to be reviewed for undeletion. It may be a tough battle, but I'm sure if you put the time and effort into it, you can fix it. Most people don't care too.
    – Kendra
    Jan 8, 2015 at 19:45
  • @Kendra I cannot edit the question, it tells me that it has been removed by a moderator. No functionality is available. Specifically a message appears across the top of the page "This post has been deleted - no more edits are allowed"
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 20:28
  • @Kendra all I can see is that it was ...deleted by Bill the Lizard, who also happens to be an educator....of .... Java, C++, and SQL - Perl, Python, and JavaScript as necessary) currently living in Charlotte, NC. I also tutor Java, Python, and JavaScript part-time at Franklin University. per his profile. You'd think his position might be "There are no bad questions". Funny he does not list .NET or ASP, yet was able to delete my question.
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 20:46
  • @Kendra I keep getting the message that the post was deleted, but my efforts to edit appear to have been preserved. I added a request in the opening for reconsideration. I agree with you that it will likely be a daunting hurdle.
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 20:52
  • @Kendra "comments disabled on deleted / locked posts / reviews " appears below my last comment on the OP. That is all. Though the message I reported previously appears in a banner after about 20 or 30 seconds on the page while attempting to edit.
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 20:55
  • @Kendra I have made edits as I stated, they appear to be saved at the same link. Though I have no way of telling if that is happening. I will try to open new thread to report the possibility of a bug. Note also that the top of page banner reads....This is Google's cache of stackoverflow.com/questions/15121740/…. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 7 Jan 2015 17:33:29 GMT.
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 21:08
  • In order to not fill my inbox, could I please ask the two of you to take this to chat? That would be a better environment for this discussion.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Jan 8, 2015 at 21:15
  • For the Software Recommendations experiment to work out would mean accepting recommendation questions on SO/SU/… and applying the lessons learned in moderation on SR. I think that SR is good at keeping the bad stuff out — relying on a bunch of users and not just a trio of mods — but not good at attracting useful answers (worst % answered on the network). The experts are on the technology-specific sites, not on SR. (I'm a mod on SR.) Jan 8, 2015 at 21:17
  • No Problem closing or purging from here, thanks for the feed back.
    – htm11h
    Jan 8, 2015 at 21:19

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