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Update

One of the site moderators attempted the following experiment: to remove all previous answers and post the IDE-comparison table, and make that editable by the community. This was a good attempt, but it hasn't been panning out well so far.

Other than a few edits I made at the start, no one has updated the information in the table. That doesn't bode well for the chances of it being kept up to date over time. Plus, some people have posted that they preferred being able to see the answers, which gave them more information than the table.

My two cents at this point is that senderle's suggestion below is the best course of action.

That is, to restore the old answers and:

Add a banner at the top stating that the information in the question and answers is out of date.

This change in banner placement/content could even be made for all such locked questions, so it would have a positive impact on the many other questions on Stack Overflow that are stuck in limbo.

But other ideas are welcome.


Original post follows:

If you Google for "Python IDE", this question comes up as the #2 highest hit:

What IDE to use for Python?

But it's gotten outdated. Boa Constructor, for example, is very old and doesn't belong on there anymore. NetBeans is listed, but it's not mentioned that it doesn't support Python from version 7.0 on. DreamPie doesn't have Auto-code completion, it says, but that's not true anymore. And some newer options like Ninja-IDE are missing from the list (see this Wikipedia entry, for example, for more up to date entries).

The Stack Overflow question is locked as being off-topic, so people can't even edit it to keep it up to date.

I've noticed that people in other questions on Stack Overflow keep referencing it as well, perhaps because of the high vote count. If someone asks about an IDE, people often say to look at that question, because it's got so much information on it.

Plus, other questions like these are marked as duplicates and send even more people back to the main outdated question (they redirect): https://stackoverflow.com/questions/126753/is-there-a-good-free-python-ide-for-windows and https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4524846/which-is-the-best-ide-for-python-development.

It's only going to get more out of date over time.

I am just wondering what could be done about this.

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  • lol ... i came upon that page last week as well ... :)
    – Noctis
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 8:51
  • 4
    Note that there is now softwarerecs.stackexchange.com, where such questions are on-topic.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 12:40
  • 6
    @jonrsharpe This question would not be on-topic there either. It is way too broad a recommendation question.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 15:01
  • @animuson duly noted, thanks for the clarification
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 15:01
  • 44
    I suppose this is what happens with questions that really shouldn't be on the site anymore, but have a historical lock on them. It was going to be outdated from day 1, and since the site doesn't want to focus on questions that are as subjective as this, it's likely going to stay outdated. I'm more of the influence that, since the question can't be maintained, it should probably be deleted.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 19:41
  • 2
    @Makoto Comparisons can be maintained. Wikipedia proves that. The only problem is that the question is officially offtopic.
    – Athari
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 19:57
  • 2
    @Athari: Wikipedia isn't Stack Overflow. Both sites have different audiences and goals. Further, the official word is that comparison-like questions are off-topic here. We can't maintain the question since it's locked, and removing the lock would give a bad precedent; this sort of question just isn't allowed here anymore.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 20:01
  • 8
    It is unfortunate that these questions become so hard to maintain because a lot of them have some value. I've found a lot of useful items from similar questions on SO. I wish we could find a place to keep them where they would still show up in Google searches and we could still edit them to maintain them, but wouldn't actually be "Questions" on the site. Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 20:28
  • 4
    The top voted answer recommends vim - that's very up to date IMO and will probably not be outdated for the next few decates.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 9:14
  • 3
    @psubsee2003 slant.co?
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 9:19
  • 2
    The question is of historical significance, not of actual significance. Nobody should use it anymore. Maybe this can be emphasized more. Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 16:24
  • I agree that it's not panning out -- which is a shame, to me, but not a surprise. I use vim -- I don't even really know any of the other IDEs on the list, so I couldn't contribute to it. I imagine there are a lot of other people like me out there. I don't even think these kinds of lists are well-maintained on Wikipedia most of the time.
    – senderle
    Commented Nov 15, 2014 at 16:45
  • Other than one edit, nobody bothered into updating the information for more than a month, so this is definitively status-failed
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 29, 2014 at 12:03

7 Answers 7

106

There're hundreds (thousands?) of questions like this which are locked but not deleted, betraying the idea of providing useful information and ruining the experience of searching for up to date information. Considering Google and other search engines rank questions on Stack Overflow very high, it becomes very hard for relevant pages to be created and noticed. Who would care about them if there's a "detailed" answer on respected Stack Overflow?

Highly upvoted questions must either be unlocked or completely deleted. Locking is the worst solution. If it's offtopic, delete it. Let other websites provide information you don't consider suitable. Don't steal potential traffic from them. Let people see other options. Stop pretending that outdated information is better than no information.

Well, if I were running Stack Overflow, I would have let questions like this survive as community wikis and ignored everyone who said that questions like this just attract spam. But I don't run Stack Overflow. So the obvious answer is:

Delete it.

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  • 6
    I wouldn't mark this answer accepted until the question is actually deleted...
    – Athari
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 19:48
  • 18
    I would argue that if these questions are voted up so well, and are as useful as to become the #1 ranked link from Google search results, that maybe the question should be considered on-topic after all. But, I don't run StackOverflow either.
    – Brad
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 20:01
  • 2
    Deletion vs locking was the subject of a long and not particularly friendly argument on MSO (now renamed to MSE) a few years back. I happen to agree that, in this case, if it's massively out-of-date then it needs to be either deleted or unlocked and maintained (all bar one answer deleted etc). However, you I'd read a bit of the history on historical locks on MSE before suggesting a change to this process.
    – Ben
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 20:02
  • 5
    @Ben Would be helpful of you to provide links to discussions and blog posts about "historical locks". From my experience, locking vs. deleting of highly upvoted offtopic questions is completely random.
    – Athari
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 20:13
  • 2
    Just search on MSE, it'll be one tagged faq. I've tried to find something representative of the arguments, but it's just a sprawling mess and quite a bit has been deleted. The actual posts are almost immaterial - my point is it's easy for you to say "delete them", but getting everyone to agree is a lot harder.
    – Ben
    Commented Nov 8, 2014 at 21:10
  • 6
    Exactly. Delete, or wikify, and let voting work its magic.
    – Marcin
    Commented Nov 9, 2014 at 15:43
  • 10
    Note there is also a collaborative lock which allows it to be locked and edited. See Where can I find programming puzzles and challenges? on Programmers.SE which allow edits to answers but no additional answers (I'll also note the 26 deleted answers in that post).
    – user289086
    Commented Nov 9, 2014 at 20:34
  • @MichaelT Funny feature. What's the difference between that and just closing the question?
    – Athari
    Commented Nov 9, 2014 at 21:05
  • 3
    @Athari closed questions can get votes to delete, or the roomba can delete it, or can get reopened. This question is locked - it is off topic, it is not a good question for the site - however it has substantial material in it that would do more harm deleting it than letting it remain... but letting it remain means that the material decays over time which does some harm to the quality of the site. This allows for the material to be maintained without allowing other processes to act on it. Note also that historically locked questions can't be edited (while collaborative locks can).
    – user289086
    Commented Nov 9, 2014 at 21:11
  • 3
    If the lock could be switched so that it could be edited by users (but disallow new answers) then there is an active Python community (chat room, website) who would be interested in updating it and keeping it up to date as time goes by. Indeed, on our internal wiki we already have a post on IDEs for when people come into chat asking.
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 9:08
  • 2
    To add to this answer, there are sites that already provide this kind of service (with voting, updating, evaluating, listing pro/cons, etc.) without the risk of being obsolete (ie. Slant), so why people should be so strong in that "all recommendations" should be on SO or SE for what matters? The QA format as it's doesn't work very well with this kind of content, why not let others that can cope with it provide it?
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 9:22
  • 2
    @Braiam I can't seriously consider a website if it doesn't understand the difference between "C++" and "C#". >_> Looks pretty though.
    – Athari
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 10:23
28

Don't delete it. Everyone's linking to it? What happens to those links?

Make it a wiki.

  • The wiki should have three sections, free and open-source, free, and commercial.
  • Otherwise it should be updated in place.

Otherwise, what's the point of wikis?

Precedence?: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

Do this in combination with Senderle's suggestion of a banner suggesting the information is out of date.

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  • What happens to the precedent set against questions like this, if we have one that everyone can freely edit?
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 9, 2014 at 20:19
  • 1
    @Makoto Sometimes questions remain closed, but not locked, so they're kept up to date by users having the "edit everything" privilege (2K). Well, until mods notice that and delete or lock the question.
    – Athari
    Commented Nov 9, 2014 at 21:02
  • 12
    Like stackoverflow.com/q/388242/458741 @makato? The precedent is already set. If the question exists a group of people need to properly maintain it, that's all.
    – Ben
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 7:11
  • What happens to those links?- StackOverflow doesn't care about linkrot... when it's directed inward, only when it's directed outward. Rather hypocritical, as many have pointed out. Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 13:43
  • Keeping bad and misleading content around just because someone, somewhere is linking to it is the polar opposite of responsible. Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 19:40
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit thanks for commenting on my answer! I'm honored! Was there a particular entry you think is incomplete or incorrect? I just review it for two IDE's I have experience with and they're still accurate as far as I can tell.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Nov 1, 2015 at 22:17
  • No nothing specific; I was speaking more generally, regarding policy on outdated posts. Commented Nov 2, 2015 at 0:21
19

I've gone ahead and made it a Wiki-Lock; no new answers can be added, but the existing top answer can be edited with more information.

I've also deleted all the other answers since the core of their information (It is a list, after all) is in the most upvoted answer. I've also merged the other two duplicates you list into that question and deleted their answers. This should keep the merge path clean and free of noise.

This is an experiment. The C++ folks take care to keep their list pruned and updated. That's really the only way this can work.

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  • 2
    @GrantWinney It was originally in the question; and since it doesn't belong there (and the Wiki-lock wouldn't allow the question to be edited by mere mortals), I edited it out of the question into the top-rated answer.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Nov 11, 2014 at 2:16
  • Does this mean I win?
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Nov 11, 2014 at 5:32
  • Is the "experiment" you refer to one to determine if editors will go try to improve the table that is present in the top rated answer? Commented Nov 14, 2014 at 5:11
  • This solution, assuming I understand it, requires potentially a lot of effort to update a rigidly formatted table by users who already have the answers and edit privilege. A generous soul with insights may be more inclined to lend a hand if it was easier to do so, by adding a response :) Commented Nov 14, 2014 at 5:30
  • 1
    @RichardLogwood Nuke the table; change the format to something that works for you. In this case, I'm just the guy enabling you to do that where you couldn't do it previously; I'm not the person who will do it for you. Especially since anyone can now suggest an edit on that answer. It's Community Wiki.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Nov 18, 2014 at 18:20
  • 1
    I think the current format is pointless to me (I don't think a wiki can evolve into a useful comparison chart for IDEs), in stackoverflow.com/questions/388242/… the answers are kept and updated, which seems a reasonable format -- and the second most voted (apart from delete which seems most voted here). Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 1:06
  • 1
    @fabio so edit the answer into that format. It's community wiki. It's made to be edited.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 1:18
  • @GeorgeStocker I think that the best format for this is: one entry for each IDE and in each IDE a proper description of facts (as it was, although more updated) and each user being able to upvote/downvote things they shared their opinions with... a community wiki has no way of giving that aspect and capturing what people do use or not... if that's not what SO wants, just point to wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… instead of creating another wiki (for which this is a bad format). Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 9:48
  • 1
    @fabio that's not what our format is good at. It's ok that not every question on the Internet is viable for Stack Overflow. The best our format can do is the wiki-lock. Others have made their questions work in that format.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2014 at 13:52
  • I really hate what you've done with this question. As someone who is currently looking for an IDE, the deleted answers provide me with way more help than the one all-encompassing answer. Your actions here have made Stack Overflow less useful. Furthermore, because you are a mod, I cannot flag your actions to be undone. I'm not happy with this. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 19:21
  • @ErickRobertson Stack Overflow isn't a good place for recommendations. The fact that this question is still around is because people have decided to be interested in maintaining it. If you'd like to edit the accepted answer with information from the other answers; that's something you can do (just click "edit" on the answer. Ultimately, the answer is going to look however you want to take the time to make it look. If you put the effort in, that's how it will look. However, leaving it open and all the answers undeleted is not acceptable; it doesn't work for our format.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 19:24
  • 1
    @GeorgeStocker Then we should delete the question. Maybe there's a better place to discuss this, because there are more questions that fall into this category than just this one. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 20:25
14

Add a banner at the top stating that the information in the question and answers is out of date.

There is a subset of locked questions like these that remain useful because they illustrate the kinds of content we don't want on Stack Overflow. Suppose this answer were deleted; someone might search for a question about Python IDEs, find nothing, and think "oh, I'll ask this question!"

This is clearly not what we want.

These questions should not be deleted and forgotten. They should be mounted on spikes at the city gate as a warning. But at the same time, it's irresponsible (and somewhat embarrassing) to leave an unmaintainable and out-of-date question so prominently displayed.

A good compromise would be to put a banner at the top of the question explicitly stating that it is out of date. Then the standard "locked" message. I don't really understand why the "locked" message appears at the bottom of the question anyway -- duplicate questions are prominently marked as such at the very top. (Indeed, I don't see why all closure and lock notices wouldn't appear at the top of the question -- but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.)

2
  • It's true: the question has a lot of content comparing the IDEs, and currently the locked notice is well below that (unless you scroll down a lot you won't see it, so it's easy to miss), and barely references the fact that the information is out of date. Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 18:29
  • One benefit of this change is that it would have a positive impact on the many questions on Stack Overflow that are in this limbo status. Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 18:49
2

Why not move it to SoftwareRecs? This question would clearly be on-topic for that SE, so it could be unlocked and kept up to date. New questions are frequently moved between sites by user flags or moderator action.

If this were done with a 301 Moved Permanently:

  1. All incoming links still work and access the content.
  2. Search engines prefer 301s for content moving, so long as it's not abused.

In effect, this would make the question into good, up to date content (assuming some of our lovely SO citizens update it, which seems a safe assumption by the number of upvotes here) and ensure the content is still accessible on search engines. SO wins, Pythons win, search engines win, everybody wins! [Oprah.gif]

1
-1

Coming across locked questions on stackoverflow.com, is always frustrating and leaves me wanting to know what else would have been said if the question had remained open.

I understand the rational that leads to these questions being locked as stated under the guidelines and discussed on the blog article "Good Subjective, Bad Subjective"

That said, I think it would be a great help to the community to automatically relocate topics that moderators deem too subjective to another "stack" site created for that purpose.* A site that shares the same high standards and moderation protocols of stackoverflow.com, with solid guidelines on subjective discourse, where the discussions can continue!

In the fast changing technology world, the line between expert and opinion can be blurry. There are times when the best expert on a matter may be the sum total of subjective experience from a few respected developers (who may or may not be considered experts). The voting up/down mechanisms already in place allow for unhelpful comments to categorized appropriately. I believe we need a place in the stackoverflow.com community where voices of experience can be heard without being silenced by the "too subjective" moniker.

When a popular discussion is locked without justification beyond citing the guidelines, one wonders if the moderator understood the nature of the discussion taking place. Given that we are a community based family of sites that grades itself, each comment and vote has a degree of subjectability to it. IMO, the moderators need to also have some accountability as to their reasons for shutting down useful discussions, as they too are making a subjective judgment.

See these quotes from the blog post "Good Subjective, Bad Subjective":

"… eventually the experts (i.e. people who are teaching you stuff) get drowned out and you are left with an experience that looks more like the magazine rack at a grocery store than a book shelf at Harvard. — Robert Scoble"

"Because we believe so deeply in learning, we are willing to go to great lengths to suppress the discussion, debate, and opinions that — while plenty entertaining — cause most forums to inevitably break down."

"We never claimed that subjective questions were horrible abominations that should never be asked. We simply choose to forego those subjective discussions, as there were dozens upon dozens of forums which already catered to them."

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  • 3
    I would strongly suggest you give How can I encourage Stack Overflow to rein in the 'subjective' vigilantes? a read. We tried that once. It didn't work out.
    – user289086
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 7:27
  • 2
    I will also point out that the nature of discussions conflicts with the way that Stack Exchange works to be a good Q&A site (and it was designed to make discussions hard). Trying to have discussions on a Q&A site would marginalize the value that it has as a Q&A site (just like how places where discussions are had it is hard to find specific answers).
    – user289086
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 7:35
  • 2
    We tried that. After a week or so, the site was slowly repurposed to do something useful (I think there are posts on Software Engineering Meta that explain the history). Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 16:41
  • Hm. We tried that and failed - is that really all? No the usual sprit around here, imo..
    – TaW
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 18:51
  • @MichaelIT, I'm a more half-full glass guy. IMO there are more SO users who can add value to questions that require some degree of subjective judgment and experiential input than those who cannot. In spite of the objections cited, I continue to believe it is possible to create a (possibly tweaked) SO model to successfully share informative and respectful discourse on these issues. Further, I believe there is a very large audience seeking information of this kind. Let's form a working group to figure out how to do it :) Any takers? Commented Nov 14, 2014 at 5:22
-11

I suggest sending a "right to be forgotten" request to Google, asking to remove that question from it's index. Since most people gets to SO from Google, this will improve user experience ;P

4
  • 5
    This is an intriguing answer. Would a downvoter care to comment why? Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 16:00
  • 7
    Getting Google to unlist this question could be good, but it wouldn't work this way. SE can do it on their end by deleting the question or adding a crawler control directive, they don't need to send any special request to Google. But there are many mirrors of SO around and some would still have the question. For the mirrors, “right to be forgotten” would be needed, but it doesn't apply here: the right to be forgotten is about individuals, not about any kind of content. Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 16:40
  • 1
    It's not applicable. The "right to be forgotten", broadly speaking, only applies to information about people. You can't use it on just any page you don't like.
    – user149341
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 17:48
  • 1
    This would only work for Google Europe. Google.com does not have RTBF requests
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Nov 10, 2014 at 18:32

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