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In this question:

TextBoxFor displaying initial value, not the value updated from code

I left the following comment:

@AdrienTancrez Stop being a cargo cult programmer. Read the documentation and fully understand what you are doing. The issue you are running into here is because you don't understand at a fundamental level how Asp.Net MVC works. Find a decent book on the subject on Amazon or something and take a few days to read and learn.

Is this sort of response ok and or within the community guidelines or was a bit too harsh?

It seems it was removed, so I supposed that's my answer. I'll try to refrain from this sort of comment in the future.

Really a deep thanks for everyone's feed back on this. Communication on this level is something I struggle with at times and this has really helped me.

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    It's okay convey that information to a user in a comment, but you didn't do so constructively (particularly that first sentence). Simply re-phrasing that comment and softening its tone, without actually changing the content, would make it appropriate.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 14:46
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    @asawyer Rewritten to not be confrontational: This could be considered poor coding convention. Read the documentation and fully understand what you are doing. The issue you are running into here is because you may be misunderstanding the concept of how Asp.Net MVC works. You might benefit from finding a decent book on the subject on Amazon or something and take a few days to read learn. It's not what you say that causes a problem, it's how you say it.
    – Compass
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 15:58
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    Well, I learned what a Cargo Cult is (never heard that used before), so there was at least some positive benefit from your post.
    – BReal14
    Commented Oct 31, 2014 at 19:44
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    OP of the question is clearly a help vampire, responding to answers by asking for more spoon-feeding and won't try to figure our things for himself ("I never use Fiddler"). I don't think it really matters what you say to him. I've been sucked into dialog with this type of user a few times before I discovered I should just downvote and move on.
    – James King
    Commented Nov 2, 2014 at 4:28
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    I upvoted this because you are willing to improve on this level and open yourself up to feedback and I think the site needs more of that kind of reflection from all of us. Thanks for being a good example.
    – toddmo
    Commented Mar 28, 2015 at 22:55
  • I find this comment abrupt and quite frankly rude. It sets a tone that leads the listening to think you're giving the OP a kick in the proverbial. Now having said that, I will not sit in judgement of you, as we all have our moments and frustration, bad days when there is that questions that breaks the camels back and we snap. Besides, I've asked my fair share of bad questions.. meh, not sure if this brings any thing more to this discussion.
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 5, 2015 at 11:51
  • @JamesKing your comment here is actually fair more offensive than the one the OP posts in his question. .. the irony
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 5, 2015 at 11:51

9 Answers 9

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I deleted your comment.

It was a borderline comment. While there were bits of useful information in it, it was not constructive on the whole.

A few helpful tips to keep comments around:

  • Focus on the question. What specific issues does that question have? Don't make it about the OP. Make it about the question.
  • Giving advice to the OP: Give them actionable advice. Not just 'read a book', or 'understand at a fundamental level': Give them something to read. A specific book name (with which chapters cover that material), or a blog post that covers the specific issue they don't understand.
  • Read the comment as if your Mom was standing over your shoulder. It feels good to zing people (I'm really bad about zinging people), but it makes your comment less useful; and certainly exposes it to being deleted.

I see a lot of bad comments every day. Your comment wasn't bad; but I do have a high threshold for keeping comments around. In this case, the comment's utility did not outweigh its... pointedness.

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    Thanks, I'll keep that in mind in the future. I do appreciate the feedback.
    – asawyer
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 14:56
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    I'd also say that "Don't be a cargo cult" programmer is un-necessary. It's not all that offensive, but it doesn't answer the question nor add anything useful.
    – Jon Story
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 17:27
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    I like the "Read the comment as if your Mom was standing over your shoulder", +1 for that :). Another advice would be to think of the comment as if you'd have to say it to the person in real life. That also always sheds a different light on your words and might make you want to rephrase 1 or 2 things.
    – Wilt
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 17:35
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    Another option is to read it in Mr. Rogers' voice. If it sounds unlike something you'd expect him to say to you, then you should rework it.
    – Compass
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 17:38
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    I read your comment and I can't help but ask the following: is the bigger problem that newbies like the OP on that MVC question are treated too roughly, or is the bigger problem that we have too many newbies like the OP on that MVC question asking horrible questions with zero research. I think a little rougher treatment on questions like that might just help the signal to noise ratio around here. Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 18:19
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    @AdamRackis Everyone is an SO newbie at some point. Discouraging people from asking questions because their first one is bad and they get flakked to death really doesn't improve their performance down the line.
    – Compass
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 18:53
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    @Compass - I was inarticulate. Being a newbie developer is fine. But being a lazy you-know-what who wants someone to spoon feed them answers because software development is hard and I want to leave work on time today....yeah, I think the site would be better if those individuals didn't ask so many questions. Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 19:25
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    @AdamRackis Be careful how you define "lazy". Even experienced developers picking up new technologies can lack appropriate vocabulary to find what they need via search engines. My thought is that if we can capture a bunch of questions as a newbie would ask them, and point them towards the right things (increasing both their vocabulary and their knowledge), future newbies will be able to ask super-basic questions using natural language and find relevant, useful answers. Knowing less than what you know right now does not make them inherently lazy. :-)
    – kmort
    Commented Nov 1, 2014 at 21:38
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    @AdamRackis, If they've been around for a while and are still asking lazy questions, then I can see your point of being somewhat stern, but if there is a newbie and their first question is ill-formed, we can't expect them to think about the question AND think about the form. Rank newbies I think should be treated more gently than that. Some commenters don't seem to make that distinction, and I think that IS a problem, although that may have not been the case here.
    – toddmo
    Commented Mar 28, 2015 at 23:05
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A good rule of thumb is that if after looking at your comment yourself, you feel like you ought to get outside advice on whether you're being rude, that's probably a good sign that you ought to dial things back.

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    Can't say that this didn't occur to me.
    – asawyer
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 18:04
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    This is good advice, and the added bonus is that you get to sleep well at night. In my job, I have to regularly tell people "that's not good enough" and send then back to the drawing board. It's much better in the long run to learn how to communicate that sentiment effectively. It makes you a better communicator, which we IT professionals desperately need.
    – Chris
    Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 18:17
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    Why comment if you have no help to offer and nothing nice to say ? Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 21:44
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    @Emm: The first step is recognizing that there is a problem. How is pointing out that there is a problem and what the problem is not helpful? Granted, depending strongly on the delivery, it might not be helpful enough. (See that George Stocker called that comment borderline, and admits to being biased against retaining comments.) Commented Oct 30, 2014 at 22:01
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I never use Fiddler , can u give me an explanation ?

Well, I sympathize, the comment you posted does tend to be the last possible constructive thing you can say. Done it myself a few times, typically in a long comment trail under an answer I posted. When nothing you explain is actually having any positive outcome but just generates an endless trail of more questions, very basic ones that can easily be googled, then that really can wear you out.

The only real way to avoid it is to know when to give up. One or two comments should suffice, posting more is really only ever a good idea if you get the impression that the OP is truly getting ahead. That comment about Fiddler could have been your cue :)

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    Thank you for the feed back, and for the help when I am asking dumb questions.
    – asawyer
    Commented Oct 31, 2014 at 1:46
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    +1, there is a point after which I just give up myself, at least for that day, and let the OP actually think about the issue a bit. Commented Oct 31, 2014 at 16:36
  • I think this is good advice. If a person if keen to learn and you can see the progress within a short discourse, I am happy to go into a chat discussion with them. Other times, I have saved links on my profile to post when the comments or question morphing gets out of hand. My stock comment at that point is, ask another question we can't solve all of this here in the comments.
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 5, 2015 at 11:55
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I have never found "Go read a book and fully understand what you are doing" to be a useful or appropriate piece of advice.

It can be applied to literally every question on SO, and is a non-answer, conveying literally no information. Of course it would be nice for the person asking the question to fully understand the issue at hand - but if they did, they would be unlikely to ask a question.

If there is a specific book that really helps clear things up for a specific subject, it can be useful to recommend such a thing in tandem with an answer. Something like "Here is a high level view of the issue, for a more detailed look, I highly recommend Awesome Coding by Bob Loblaw"

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    What if the OP's level of understanding is so low he probably could not understand the answer? Then "first go find a book" would be useful and appropriate.
    – Jongware
    Commented Oct 31, 2014 at 0:02
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    In a case where the OP doesn't understand very basic concepts, there is almost always a good online tutorial you can point him to. Or, again, a specific book. "go find a book" is never useful or appropriate, because it conveys no information. "Go read basics of C memory management by Matt Damon" conveys a tailored, specific suggestion, and is thus useful to some degree. Commented Oct 31, 2014 at 14:44
  • Plus one for blah blah blah. Haha.
    – toddmo
    Commented Mar 28, 2015 at 23:10
  • @Jongware there are ways of delivering this information, wouldn't you agree?
    – user3956566
    Commented Nov 5, 2015 at 11:57
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    Most programming books are BS, bloated, massively inferior to a decent tutorial, and by definition a year or four out of date. Google up five tutorials, figure out which one is the best, clearest and most concise, then read it.
    – smci
    Commented Nov 5, 2015 at 20:47
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Yes, it wasn't constructive, it certainly wasn't specific, and almost all of us would experience it as extremely rude. Don't let your frustration at assumed laziness by the OP provoke you into a rant. (For a 1-point newbie poster, it was a decent post and showed effort)

  • Your comment contains three "yous", five imperative verbs and at least four insulting phrases. As an exercise, why not rewrite it with zero insults, zero/minimal "yous", and verbs relating to what the code should do, not the person. Why not avoid totally avoid the word "you", or "your code". Say "this code".
  • Keep your comment specific: "You don't understand at a fundamental level how X works and you need to go read a book" is still not constructive.
  • Pinpoint the specific concept OP does not understand, e.g. "This code is not MVC because a) b) c). It needs to do d) e) f). Example g), tutorial h) or book i) should be helpful."
  • Criticize the code, not the person. "This code is bad", not "You don't understand and need to go away and read a book".
  • Just don't throw in phrases like "You don't understand at a fundamental level...". Rewrite, making the specific concept the subject. Not the person. Don't say "Stop being a cargo cult programmer", say "For correct MVC decomposition you must do x) y) z) [or give a link]". Your frustration with the person is spilling over, and your language is amplifying that. I don't think you meant to write everything ad-hominem, but you did. But I think you have good intent. This is another daily reminder that each of us has to self-monitor our frustration at user behavior on SO and not let that spill over into our behavior, check if you are coming across as constructive, else take time off or otherwise be mindful of avoiding burnout.
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  • <nitpick>I'd rephrase a bit to make it even less you-targeted: "For correct MVC decomposition one must do..." In friendly comments I probably wouldn't bother but sending a negative message I try to stick with Brit style politeness.</nitpick> (other than that, a pretty impressive analysis)
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 31, 2014 at 19:06
  • @gnat... not into the British 'one' myself...
    – smci
    Commented Oct 31, 2014 at 23:18
  • @Yvette: there's nothing ironic whatsoever about that :) I suggested how to engage with a newbie, in a gentle oblique way. I'm perfectly capable of rewriting everything I say in an indirect or passive-voice with zero yous, and it makes things longer and diluted ("Criticism should address the code, not the person... Phrases like X,Y,Z aren't helpful..."). The OP asked for advice. So I gave him/her the advice s/he asked for. Since the OP's original conduct was seriously rude and unhelpful (which at least they seem to be somewhat aware of), my level of prescriptiveness was entirely appropriate.
    – smci
    Commented Nov 5, 2015 at 20:40
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You may be perfectly right about your opponent to be a cargo cult programmer. And you may even have (next to the rudeness) a positive intention to make someone actually make a step back and start thinking.

But the problem is, that the cargo cult programmer is probably just not in a position to recognize that he or she is a cargo cult programmer.

This is called the Dunning-Kruger effect. I loved the following quote from the recent article.

Logic itself almost demands this lack of self-insight: For poor performers to recognize their ineptitude would require them to possess the very expertise they lack. To know how skilled or unskilled you are at using the rules of grammar, for instance, you must have a good working knowledge of those rules, an impossibility among the incompetent. Poor performers—and we are all poor performers at some things—fail to see the flaws in their thinking or the answers they lack.

This, by Vulcanian logic, makes your comment not constructive and therefore effectively reduces it to emotions.

But I am with you, as I am also not flawless. I have met cargo culters and could not hold me back recalling cargo cult. And I see this as my weakness as I'm just not in a possession of enough wisdom to help these people - or to avoid the situation.

I see many people on SO who master such situations way better. There's a lot to learn.

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I think it's slightly inappropriate, as a minor edit shows:

Don't be a cargo cult programmer. Read the documentation to fully understand what you are doing. The issue you ran into here is because you didn't understand at a fundamental level how Asp.Net MVC works. You can avoid this by finding a decent book on the subject; Asp.Net MVC does not lend itself to trial and error.

It's still a pretty strong advice, but it emphasizes actions over people.

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The issue I have with this comment is that as programmers, we often are faced with doing some task that we are not well informed how to perform. The analogy I've heard and find useful is that even the best programmers are "T" shaped: there is one area of deep expertise and then a lot of areas of mere familiarity. Certainly, if one's job is to do ASP programming, spending a couple days understanding the core concepts is useful, but not everyone who will come to that particular question will be an "ASP programmer."

Even toned down, if someone asks "how do I fix my ASP problem?" answering "Learn ASP" is not helpful.

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Spare the rod and spoil the child, they say. I don't know enough about this specific subject to tell whether this comment was justified, but in general I feel that lots of questions on SO almost deserve a comment like this, and I don't have a problem with people being a bit harsh on people who refuse to read the documentation and ask silly questions to which the answer is readily available.

That said, you don't have to be harsh or rude, and if you yourself have doubts about your comment, you should certainly remove it or reword it.

Problem is that in this written communication we lack much of the nuance that a one to one spoken conversation might provide, so even comments that may seem harmless to you can appear offensive to the reader. So it pays to choose your words carefully, even when you want your remark to have an intentional sneer about the lack of research.

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    Its more than possible to be firm without being harsh. You are talking to another human being. Calling them an idiot, which that comment basically did, is not a very nice thing to do. Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 16:57
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    firm, harsh. Maybe I picked the wrong word. I'm not a native English speaker. I think this comment just said that they had too little basic knowledge of the subject to be helped in a good way. But that's what I meant with my last paragraph: comments can easily be interpreted in a wrong, often hurtful way, so you must pick your words carefully. And that is a two way street: you shouldn't be easily offended by comments. Quite often you interpret a comment much harsher than they were intended, so try to read past that and just extract the core information of the message.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 18:27
  • No question, you need a thick skin to interact on the internet. My point was that the comment posted was blatantly offensive/harsh to me, I feel that I do have that skin. Your advice is good in general, I just feel it isn't applicable to this comment. Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 18:56

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