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I have a gold badge for the tag on Stack Overflow. This allows me to instantly close questions tagged with this.

I just voted to close this question: How to get img dimensions from file object and it instantly closed because the original question was tagged with CSS. This tag, however, had been edited out before I voted to close it. Is this behaviour desired?

Question Revision History


Update

Just thought I'd mention that at the time I posted this question I only had the CSS Gold Tag Badge. I do now have the jQuery Gold Tag Badge as well, but that wasn't in play here at the time.

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  • 44
    It would be nice to have a hammer warning/icon when I am voting to close it. I prefer to know what a button does when I click it :)
    – Emond
    Oct 13, 2014 at 17:42
  • 16
    @ErnodeWeerd: you mean you are not actually taking care of how you use your close votes when you can hide among 4 other voters? Tut tut!
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 13, 2014 at 21:27
  • 25
    @martijnpieters - of course I take care but sometimes having a group to decide is better. Having a gold badge doesn't make me all-knowing and, yes I do admit, I make mistakes. Other than that, a button should tell you the result not hide a surprise :)
    – Emond
    Oct 14, 2014 at 4:01
  • 11
    @ErnodeWeerd: the point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't matter how you vote. You can always retract your close vote or vote to reopen if you were wrong, by the way. You do want to lose that group mentality, never close a post just because others voted to do so.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 14, 2014 at 7:17
  • @ErnodeWeerd your request is at meta.stackexchange.com/q/231625/147247 Oct 15, 2014 at 7:05
  • 8
    @MartijnPieters sometimes it's useful to say "I know this needs to be closed", other times it's useful to say "I think this should be closed what do you think?"... being a subject matter expert doesn't mean you should never feel the need to include others potentially differing opinions.
    – Jason
    Oct 15, 2014 at 15:34
  • 3
    @Jason: then make a comment, and not a vote! Don't assume the other voters won't act like lemmings and blindly follow the leader over the cliff.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 15, 2014 at 15:35
  • 2
    @Jason: and be flexible. You also have one insta-reopen vote. If there are people that disagree with the closure, you can discuss and easily reopen again too.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 15, 2014 at 15:37
  • 1
    @MartijnPieters Fair enough and I don't have a problem with that, but it seems like it might be desirable to increase the nuance with which you can respond. A comment could easily be drowned or ignored, a close vote much less so... the fact that someone else might blindly follow is a concern, but regardless could feel like the appropriate level of response, more so than a comment and less so than a unilateral close. Note, I don't own a gold badge in any tags, so I don't have to worry about this myself.
    – Jason
    Oct 15, 2014 at 15:41
  • 1
    @Jason: I hold 8, and like moderators I learned the value of standing behind my votes, and at the same time being flexible and be quick to reopen if I was wrong. So far I have not found a need for anything else.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 15, 2014 at 15:44
  • @MartijnPieters: Would a flag perhaps be better than a comment? If the badge-holder thinks a post should probably be closed, but doesn't have the expertise to know for certain, a comment would be unlikely to draw moderators' attention to the issue.
    – supercat
    Oct 15, 2014 at 16:39
  • @supercat: no, because once you have earned the privilege to vote to close, you can no longer flag to close.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 15, 2014 at 17:02
  • 2
    @MartijnPieters: Perhaps that's the fundamental problem; the fact that someone has the authority to close-hammer a post directly doesn't imply that the person will know whether every post that seems like it should probably be closed, actually should be closed.
    – supercat
    Oct 15, 2014 at 17:57

4 Answers 4

105

That's correct and by design. Only the tags in the initial revision count for the dupe hammer.

Normally that is meant to prevent you from adding tags just to be able to use your hammer. Here it worked the other way; the OP made a mistake in adding the CSS tag, but because the initial revision had that tag your dupe hammer counts.

I think that's fine; no one should be able to prevent a dupe hammer from applying by quickly removing tags, either.

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  • 11
    I see, that makes sense - I hadn't considered a possible abuse situation. Oct 13, 2014 at 10:53
  • So if the first edit to a post adds/removes a tag, it's okay and your gold badge works, but subsequent edits have it "turned off"?
    – TylerH
    Oct 13, 2014 at 14:24
  • 5
    Sometimes I've noticed a problem with this behaviour. When somebody instead of putting a (for example) python tag uses the specific version tag (e.g. python-2.x) without putting also the main tag. In this case the number of possible dupe hammers suddenly becomes much smaller. And most of the time the question is actually version agnostic and it's only the OP that is using a specific version, but both the contents of the question and answer don't depend on the specific version used.
    – Bakuriu
    Oct 13, 2014 at 18:06
  • 2
    @TylerH: I may have misunderstood your comment; the initial revision is what the OP posted (plus grace period edits), so no edits can add or remove a tag.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 13, 2014 at 18:07
  • 1
    @Bakuriu: yes, in which case the normal closing procedures apply. It doesn't actually happen all that often, and the dupe hammer is a great convenience but it is not like we cannot get a dupe closed anyway without it.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 13, 2014 at 18:07
  • @MartijnPieters From my personal experience it happens much more often than tags edited out afterwards. You may not notice because you do have some version-specific gold tags and so, you are able to use the hammer even in those situations.
    – Bakuriu
    Oct 13, 2014 at 18:12
  • @MartijnPieters Okay, thanks for the clarification!
    – TylerH
    Oct 13, 2014 at 18:18
  • @Bakuriu: python-2.7 has less than 7% the volume of the python tag, python-3.x about 4%, after which the numbers are minute, so really, this isn't that big a problem. That's the thing with dupe hammers; they are pretty much handed out in response to actual tag traffic. The 2.7 tag will have a second gold badge holder in a month or so, at the current rate. 3.x already has 2 gold badge holders.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 13, 2014 at 20:12
  • @Bakuriu: then there are the 'type' gold badges; I have list, dictionary and string hammers, perhaps those are helping me close stuff more often than the python-2.7 and python-3.x hammers.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 13, 2014 at 20:13
  • 3
    Does this "prevention" need to exist at all? Do we really have users with gold C# badges who we imagine would say "aha, this Java question is a duplicate of that other Java question, but I can't wield my hammer unless I re-tag it as C# first"? That doesn't sound like something I would worry about. Surely it'd be more common to correctly re-tag something, and then incidentally hammer it closed.
    – amalloy
    Oct 14, 2014 at 19:02
  • 1
    @amalloy: I do think so; we don't want controversial posts being retagged 6 months after just so someone can dupe-hammer or reopen it again.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 15, 2014 at 8:35
  • 1
    If people earn enough trust to close questions with a single vote, shouldn't we also be able to trust them to not abuse the tagging system to apply those powers in evil ways? Oct 15, 2014 at 17:18
  • 1
    @RetoKoradi: we trust them in their field of expertise. That's quite narrow. Allowing for arbitrary tag edits would suddenly allow that trust to be expanded to every single post.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Oct 15, 2014 at 17:20
  • 1
    I understand the reasoning. Similar to @amalloy above, I'm just not sure if it's likely to happen. Most gold tag badge holders probably have 20k+ rep, which comes along with various privileges that put a lot of trust in them. If we expect them to deliberately make lame moves like this, I would have concerns about them having a lot of their other privileges. Oct 16, 2014 at 4:29
  • 1
    The cool thing about using gold badges for this, @Reto, is that it's not a fixed trust level. When you hit 3K, the system trusts you to vote to close - no amount of participation earns you more trust in that area. But there are currently 300+ different gold tag badges folks have earned on SO, and many more that could potentially be earned - and each one adds to the trust the system grants you.
    – Shog9
    Oct 17, 2014 at 15:34
24

The ability for gold tag badge holders to close as a duplicate with a single vote is based on the original tags the question had.

This is to prevent you adding a tag and then closing the question.

It does result in anomalies like this one though.

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  • 16
    The more direct way might be to just check if the tag was added by the close voter himself and if so, disregard the dupe hammer if existing. Oct 14, 2014 at 18:47
  • 2
    Such a restriction would be trivial to work around, @Trilarion. If we were to go that route, we might as well save a little bit of database load and just pop up a message box asking folks nicely to not abuse it.
    – Shog9
    Oct 15, 2014 at 18:02
4

Martijn Pieters's answer makes sense, but I think that in this particular case, a warning saying

The question was edited since you entered the page, this is the new version, do you still want to vote that way?

could improve the voting relevance (while still allowing you to use your badge color according to the original version).

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  • 2
    Actually, that would seem like a good idea any time someone clicks "close" or "downvote" next to a displayed post which doesn't match the current version. One is supposed to be able to retract votes if a post is edited after the votes are given, but if the vote is posted after the post was edited (but before the edit was displayed) the user should still be able to retract the vote whether or not they notice it immediately [and they may not notice it immediately if the screen seems to refresh simply in response to the vote click].
    – supercat
    Oct 15, 2014 at 16:37
  • 3
    Most folks already get notified if an edit is made while they're viewing the page (assuming websockets work). In all cases, you should be voting based on whether you think the post needs to be closed, not whether or not you think your vote will be binding - for all you know, by the time that vote is cast there are 4 others...
    – Shog9
    Oct 15, 2014 at 18:01
3

As a suggestion, could the rule be changed from:

if ( match(orig_tags,'css') ) { /*...*/ }

to:

if ( match(orig_tags,'css') && match(current_tags,'css') { /*...*/ }

So that the abuse case is handled, but also this case and if a gold member wished to re-add a tag in order to close the question, they could and thus have the original functionality?

Don have a great day

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  • 1
    That would make it so any gold member of any tag can close any question they wanted.
    – Dave Chen
    Oct 16, 2014 at 3:10
  • 4
    Only if the tag was in the original question defined. Oct 16, 2014 at 10:07

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