91

Not a question, just an observation I made during my first year here on SE, especially Stack Overflow:

When I run into a programming problem, I usually try to research a solution first, especially on basic things like "removing duplicate values" or "parsing an XML in Perl" or stuff like that. Practically, I will solve all of those problems before I have to ask a question about them here. These are also very often the questions that a lot of other programmers will run into sooner or later, so they attract a lot of attention from people searching in Google or directly on SO, and consequently will be upvoted like crazy. So, a simple problem that you probably could fix yourself in a couple of hours, by reading the appropriate docs and samples on the net, and by browsing related questions on SO, will give you hundreds of upvotes and the reputation that comes with it.

In contrast, questions to specific, well researched problems that usually only few people will share, only get 1, 2 or even no upvotes, simply because no one else is looking for/at them.

As a result: if you are lazy and ask the simple questions without doing any real work, the reputation system (combined with people that are just as lazy and were looking for the same answers) will give you high rewards. But if you put in some hours of work first, and then only ask the stuff you are still are stuck with, you will get few upvotes/reputation.

I can't really think of a quick solution for this problem. On the one hand, basic questions do need to be asked and are of course of interest to more people than specific ones. On the other hand, those questions should not be awarded with 10x or 100x more reputation than "deeper" questions that are the result of better research. Basically, to make this more fair there should be a factor involved that rates the difficulty or amount of research that went into a question, that, multiplied with the upvotes should determine the reputation for a question (and answer). So there could be two scoring tools for a question: the one that is the only one now which is saying "I think that question is relevant", and a second one that says "I think the difficulty of this question is X out of 10". I also understand that SE wants to keep the UI simple and not confuse users too much. Still, that kind of bugs me.

One solution might be to only show the second rating instrument to users with high or very high reputation and then take the median or average score of those scores as the "question difficulty factor". Firstly, because accurately recognizing the difficulty and/or amount of research behind a question needs some experience and knowledge. And secondly, that way users that could be confused by such a rating element never see it and therefore are not put off.

The other, similar but a bit simpler solution would be to classify questions (and answers) into "total noob", "beginner", "intermediate", "pro" and "expert" questions, or something like that. And then rate each class differently for the rep score.

20
  • 10
    There's equal opportunity laziness rewards available, lazy answers can get a lot of votes too. A simple side-effect of such posts just staying active for much longer so a lot more SO users see them. They are trying to do something about it, give it 6 to 8 weeks. Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 15:49
  • 2
    That's just the homepage, it doesn't fix the voting issue, people are still attracted to the questions with many upvotes. The no research issue gets so many complaints, why isn't anything been done about it.
    – simonzack
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 15:52
  • 10
    Life isn't fair
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 15:56
  • 14
    Life isn't fair, but we can make it fairer.
    – simonzack
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 16:14
  • 1
    I think the best thing might be .. not to change the system , but to add in more features like "bounties" whereby quality answers might get rewarded more. Else, it seems too controversial Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 16:52
  • 3
    @Coffee: SO has had bounties for years. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 0:03
  • 2
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit - I understand, I meant to further go down that route. Hmm, perhaps we can devise special badges or such. Customized badges? Well, I'll think on it :-) Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 0:04
  • 1
    The problem with the bounty system, at least as I understand it, is that newer users with low rep can't entice veterans (or really anybody) to answer with sufficient motivation. Thankfully the veteran community doesn't seem to need much motivation and are generally very responsive in my experience.
    – Marty
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 0:36
  • "Laziness" is subjective. People that are new usually do not know where to search or how to verify if the source of information is reliable. Time adds up with "easy" questions when you are new to something.
    – JGallardo
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:18
  • 4
    Laziness is also rewarded bigtime in the programming profession. Are you really surprised?
    – Wug
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:47
  • 6
    and .... ? Laziness is one of the three virtues after all
    – mcalex
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:57
  • 1
    The points aren't supposed to be a reward for "virtuous" actions, begging the question that laziness is somehow bad, but to ensure the content on SO is good. Content people are looking for is good content. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 6:06
  • 1
    Wouldn't it have been great if you saved a couple of working hours if you asked a question and got a reply by someone who already solved that problem before? For me this is exactly what SO is about. It raises my productivity by asking people about a problem they might have already solved. And in return I try to help them solve their problems. That way we all are more effective in what we do. Oh and yes, there is that repuation thingy that has nothing to do with the quality and complexity of my answers. Why care...
    – Calon
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 6:52
  • 2
    +1 for the idea "life isn't fair", true enough. One might also wonder: why care about SO reputation to the extent that it affects your outlook on the fairness of life? Someone else got points for a cheesy question, and my question got me no points? I'll file that right next to "orange peel feels bumpy" -- a truth about the universe that doesn't actually affect anything. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 14:47
  • 1
    Just a thought... how about decreasing the reputation points after a certain amount of votes? E.g. let the first 20 votes give 5 points, the next 20 votes 4 points and so on. From what I read so far everybody agrees that after like 100 votes the actual information they contain is just that the question is useful but nothing more, so imho it shouldn't give infinitely many points.
    – swenzel
    Commented Aug 21, 2015 at 9:53

5 Answers 5

24

Just another point of view on this, not that I entirely disagree...

In contrast, questions to specific, well researched problems that usually only few people will share, only get 1, 2 or even no upvotes, simply because no one else is looking for/at them.

I think what you may be seeing, to some small extent, is the difference between general reference questions:

How do I foo the bar?

or even:

What's a foo?

and really very specific questions:

How do I foo the bar in baz while standing on one foot in Iceland on Friday afternoon?

The general reference questions are likely to see a lot more traffic, not because they're better questions, but because they're the sort of questions anyone working with a new language is going to ask and need an answer to.

On the other hand the really very specific question, while it may show more effort, is going to see a lot less traffic because it's only going to be useful to people standing on one foot in Iceland on Friday afternoon...

Do you see where I'm going here? It's not about the quality of the question per se, it's about how useful it is, and how many people it is useful to.

Once upon a time we had a close reason called "Too Localized", as in answers to this question are only likely to be useful to the person who asked the question and the person who answered it.

Too Localized was done away with because it was "the most misused close reason in our surveys"

While a really very specific question may be a great question that deserves an answer, it is also likely a question that's a little Too Localized to get a lot of attention.

7
  • 8
    There are also lazy voters, they just vote (up or down) because a question (or an answer) has some votes already – without even reading the post. Though this maybe is a problem of answers more than questions.
    – Teemu
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 6:14
  • @apaul: You basically quote what I was saying in my post. Specific questions -> more effort but less audience. I get it. It's just that SE has this reputation system, and I think it is flawed, because high reputation does not necessarily correlate with high competence. It could be just the opposite: lazy, incompetent people get high reputation because they ask dumb questions. Why have the rep system at all when it could be that flawed? That is the point I tried to raise. SE still works, but maybe it could work better. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 13:16
  • 1
    @jackthehipster reputation != competence. Reputation is a rough measurement of how much the community trusts you. That said it may be worth while to take a look at the source of a user's rep when handing out privileges. I want to say there was an old Meta discussion about whether users who earned all their rep from asking questions should get moderation privileges, but I can't find it now.
    – apaul
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 16:13
  • 1
    @jackthehipster Its also worth keeping in mind that the point of SO isn't to build a reputation as a skilled/competent programmer, but rather to "build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming".
    – apaul
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 16:19
  • @apaul: Not to stress that point unnecessarly, but there seems to be a question about the dimensionality of the reputation in the background of my question. In the social sciences you always have to be very clear about what exactly any construct reflects. Here, the reputation seems to be a mixture of trustworthiness and competence. Altough they probably correlate high, they are different things and (depending on what is done with the rep) should be kept separate. But if the system works well and the priv. are handed out to the right people, there is no need to fix anything. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 16:26
  • @apaul: ad competence != reputation: it doesn't really change the point when you substitute trust for competence. Still, the rep system might reward the wrong people and give them "trust points" when they really shouldn't get them... in view of the privileges they earn. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 16:29
  • 1
    @jackthehipster If it makes you feel any better about it, there is a whole world of difference between the sort of high rep one can achieve from providing great questions/answers, and the sort of rep one can achieve from asking lots of "questionable" questions
    – apaul
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 16:32
14

The real solution is to be able to identify those types of problems during or after your research, and then ask and answer your own question on SO. Then when everyone else runs into the same problem, they upvote your question and your answer.

Note: This is an instance of "do as I say, not as I do"; I have the same problem as you, where I tend not to ask a question until a fairly thorough scouring of the docs and Internet reveals nothing. I also have a hard time judging in advance which questions will become popular, and therefore are worth writing up. For what it's worth, while all of those highly voted lazy questions were written by lazy people, not all lazy questions written by lazy people get a lot of votes (from my observation, quite a number get down voted and/or closed).

4
  • 1
    Well said! Out of 1000 "lazy" questions, 999 get closed as duplicate. Ideally, the only ones that subsist are those that had never been asked before, and thus were in dire need of being asked. So no, being lazy is NOT rewarded by the points system, unless you are extremely lucky and your question is actually very useful. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:01
  • 5
    @NicolasRaoul: You appear to be under the mistaken impression that duplicates always get closed as duplicate. That only happens for the really popular duplicates.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:56
  • @NicolasRaoul Do you mean to say that when a question is marked as duplicate and/or closed any reputation / badges gained based on upvotes / number of views (popular question / famous question) is not counted at all? If it gets counted then just by asking duplicate questions someone might be gaining reputation and more importantly privileges. Isn't that a problem? Commented Jan 19, 2017 at 5:18
  • Self answered questions are complex, risky, and counter-intuitive to do well; it's also hard to figure out how relevant a topic would be before you post it. They tend to be rather poorly received. It's a good idea in theory but I don't think I can recommend that course of action.
    – jrh
    Commented Oct 6, 2017 at 23:17
10

It's an interesting phenomenon that made itself evident within the first few months of Stack Overflow. When more people can understand something, they're going to be much more likely to participate in all the ways that we make participation available. It's not just votes, look at the number of answers those questions tend to get.

Some of this is good. A system such as our system must have some amount of low-hanging fruit that's easy to harvest in order to continue sucking people in and making them addicts continue engaging new folks and expanding the community. That's fine, we expect that at least some of them are going to go on to asking (or answering) some harder stuff. Some folks ultimately find that participating mostly by editing and reviewing is their way of contributing - the harder questions that interest them have already been asked for the most part. We really need those users, and we need them to have the privileges needed in order to help out. The point is, they tried their luck at participating, we made them feel good about doing it, and they stuck around to continue doing very useful things for us.

This breaks rather badly on the other side of the scale, the people that have a real depth of knowledge to share on certain very complicated topics aren't only not as likely to see rep gains in huge chunks - let's forget about rep for a second - they aren't unlocking privileges that they'd be very likely to use if they had them. Very capable hands are kept sort of at bay, because not enough people see the answers that they write. Of those that do see them, not as many are going to understand them.

While at work on the quality initiative, we've been thinking a lot about visibility, and who we make sure sees what when they come to the site. That goes way beyond giving mediocre to poor questions less attention until we can determine that they've been improved, it's also a matter of showing you stuff that you might have been missing. The more we looked, the more we found that really 'rare' knowledge often shows up on questions that are, well, less than stellar, and it shows up in the form of answers.

We can't do a whole lot about human nature, folks are always going to participate more avidly when they're at or above their comfort level of understanding. We can, however, fix some of the problems that we have with visibility, in order to make sure that really amazing stuff gets seen more often and rewarded. I've got a few posts coming out on MSE this week that relate to this.

I know I'm not directly tackling this, and that's mostly because trying to do that would .. probably not be the most ideal direction to go. The thing we can do, and are doing, is make sure the other end gets better treatment.

5
  • speaking about visibility of stuff that's harder to answer and has no chance to gain no bikeshedding eyeballs and answer, In “network hot” questions formula, discard answers when voting evidence indicates that these are not good data points
    – gnat
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 8:32
  • 1
    @Tim: I think you made my point even clearer. It's not that I feel (very) bad for not getting the rep I think I deserve (and all the other geniuses who only jump in at the really difficult questions). It's rather that the rep score (+the privileges that come with it) does not necessarly correlate with the competence of people. It could actually correlate negatively. So you don't always get the good people on top. That's what I was trying to say. I think my suggestion for a second measurement - question difficulty - could help salvage that. I'm not sure it is worth the effort, though. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 13:23
  • 1
    @jackthehipster As we keep going farther and farther down the ML hole, it's not outrageous to say that 'difficulty' might be something we can actually measure one day, in a way that doesn't invite users to try and game the system even harder. Visibility is something in our hands we can probably deliver soon, so that's the current focus. I'm definitely not discounting something even cooler, as you suggest.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 15:07
  • 2
    Actually, since I did mention the early days, back then it was more "As a programmer, what color did you paint your bike shed?" Heck, we rarely talked about the mechanics of actually painting one. A lot of people thought the harder stuff would get more love if we did away with that, and they were right to a large extent, but .. not really the extent that was anticipated. I need to think about this a bit more, because I feel like I might be overlooking some possibilities in stuff we've got in the works. No promises, but I did have a bit of an epiphany.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 15:10
  • @Tim: As I suggested in my second edit, questions/answers could be classified roughly into noob, intermediate, pro etc classes and then scored accordingly. Experienced (high-rep) users should be able to do that in their respective fields quite easily. Take some average from those votes and you probably get a good rating. Not sure you were refering to this, but I thought I mention it anyway. And always glad to help with epiphanies ;) Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 15:26
4

Does it really matter?

If we all dug through the same noisy forums, ad cluttered websites by vendors, and verbose blogs how does that help us? yes we can eventually get the answer. How long would that take? Times adds up with "easy questions" when you are new. Especially if one does not know where to look, how to verify if the information is reliable, or has to sign up for stupid emails in order to access the website, etc.

But why not just let people ask, let others answer, and then it rank higher here on google so that the next person can just end up here where there is better peer review and more concise answers.

2
  • Read Tim Posts answer, he gives a good reason why. SE is working pretty well as it is, but maybe it could work better, that's all. If a rep score is there, why shouldn't we try to make the best of it? And it's idea clearly is to give some indication of the competence of people (and give them a pat on the back of course). So if the rep score may reward incompetence, something could be improved. That's all. But it doesn't have to. Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 13:27
  • @jackthehipster i don't care about his "answer" (opinion) as my own experience is more relevant to me.
    – JGallardo
    Commented Sep 26, 2016 at 4:27
-8

I just thought of a proposed solution.

We want to keep things simple, as much as reasonably so.

So here is the thought that I just had.

Usually excellent questions - they are something thorough , code and probing and maybe diagrams... a lot of stuff involved. The average user needs.. at least 10 minutes to sort through it.

If it is a quality question, it sits around unhindered for a while. It gathers upvotes... without gathering answers.

So this is the proposed idea: for every day that goes by without any answers to a question , add (#-of-days X upvotes) to the points rewarded to an upvoted answer.

For example, here's a question:

"10 Upvotes" : How to fix this JQuery?

Answer after 2 days: Like this - XYZ . ( Answer accrues 2 upvotes = 40 bonuses points. somewhat like a internal bounty-system )

13
  • 4
    This is irrelevant to the discussion. Questions like this tend to get closed and deleted, not upvoted hundreds of times.
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 16:56
  • 4
    Is this an answer? It looks like - 'you posted the question before me, so I will post my question as an answer.' Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 17:59
  • 5
    Maybe this question would be more relevant instead: "I want to achieve this same output below that I get with jQuery, but with pure JavaScript since jQuery isn't available on the page." Awful question, but valid by our question standards. awful questions like this tend to get upvotes on both the question and the answer.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 18:43
  • There are a lot of things to discuss in the post, admittedly I took a tangential route. Commented Sep 23, 2014 at 19:21
  • 2
    @KevinB "This question appears to be off-topic for this site because it is a work order" ;) Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 0:21
  • 3
    @BilltheLizard: When 99% of the questions are crap and we aren't even allowed to tell the askers they're crap, even the 1% that get through community moderation are enough to make the optimal answering strategy "post crap answers to crap questions and hope you get upvoted." Simply because it's less work.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 1:51
  • @BilltheLizard - Ok, I fixed it and focused on what OP asked Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:00
  • 1
    @tmyklebu Answering crap questions is only "optimal" if your only goal is to gain reputation.
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:24
  • 2
    I think the point trying to be made is that a large percentage of the answerers likely are simply trying to gain reputation. If we gameify correct behavior more than poor behavior, it may benefit the community more. Unfortunately the line between poor and correct is extremely subjective and near impossible to automate.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:31
  • 1
    @BilltheLizard: Yes. You think nobody has that mindset? Kevin, it doesn't even need to be a large percentage of answerers trying to game the system; a rather small percentage is enough.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:44
  • @KevinB - It's true that the line is blurry.. but perhaps something can be done anyway. Since everyone plays by the same rules, it shouldn't hurt too much to experimentally gamify correct behavior Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:45
  • 2
    I would prefer to go some what in the other direction too. lower the benefit of answering these poor questions. Otherwise, you aren't really doing anything to help solve the problem.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:46
  • @KevinB - Yeah that's true, I don't think it's too harsh to say something like 50% off for answering a post with less than 10 rep .. but if I recall correctly , the mods are against these types of constraints . One can argue sometimes boundary cases pop-up where a -10 post was wrongfully downvoted, or could have been fixed . etc :\ Commented Sep 24, 2014 at 2:48

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .