12

I know that a lot has been said about the banned to ask questions status but I can't find anything related to the contradiction that implies being able to review, moderate and edit questions from other users (a recognition from Stack Overflow to your experience if you like) and yet not being able to ask your own questions.

How can someone be trustworthy to review their peers, but not to apply the same criteria on personal questions?

Again, I searched but couldn't find anything related to this topic. If you think that this has been covered somewhere else, please let me know.

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    Is this a situation you are facing right now? I'd like to think that usually, a user with enough reputation to moderate others' content won't run into the question ban.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 10:57
  • @Pekka웃 Yep that's right
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 10:57
  • Do you have specific moderation abilities in mind?
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:18
  • @Pekka웃 post edition, flags, review late answers, review first posts.
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:24
  • 6
    It is rare that someone with 500+ rep is question banned, I'd say. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:37
  • 4
    Personally, those don't strike me as abilities that need to be restricted, seeing as they are all peer reviewed. It may be different beyond 2000 points, where you can edit, vote to close, etc. but I'd be really surprised if question bans for 2k+ users occurred frequently
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:37
  • 1
    And your edits are still subject to peer review (you suggest edits, not make them directly). Flagging is available from 15 points upwards, so that's given to almost everyone. The real issue here is the access to First Posts and Late Answers review queues. I think the number of people that are question banned and have 500+ rep can be counted on one hand, even on Stack Overflow. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:39
  • 1
    @MartijnPieters It's fairly common, as one can gain upto 1K by suggesting edits Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:41
  • 1
    @Pekka웃 and yet it's possible to someone that it's not suited to make questions review them. I even get a SO message when they enabled the reviews queues saying: "We trust you..."
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:41
  • 9
    Sounds to me you've got it just reversed. Asking a good question that elicits useful answers and is worth keeping around forever is a wholeheckofalot more difficult than all the other fleeting activities you mentioned. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:42
  • 1
    @InfiniteRecursion: In my experience people that have been question banned don't make great edit suggestion either. But I did discount that possibility, I guess we'll need a few hands more to count these. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:43
  • @HansPassant either way the contradiction exists.
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:44
  • That contradiction is taken care of by review bans...every task has a seperate ban e.g. flag ban, question ban, answer ban, review ban. They are not interconnected. If you do anything badly, you get banned in that particular task. So it's taken care of @boolean Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:51
  • @InfiniteRecursion ok that's an answer. Could you post it?
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:52
  • 1
    Nope, formulating answers is a big task. I prefer comments. Glad that you understood the working of SO. Mission accomplished :-) Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 11:54

2 Answers 2

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There are several possible reasons that I can think of:

  • Most people who get banned from asking questions are never going to try /review anyway.

  • There is a separate system in place for banning bad reviewers. There's no reason to assume someone is bad at /review when there's a system in place to detect it.

  • By reviewing other people's questions and answers, you might get a better idea of the kinds of things we do and don't find acceptable on Stack Overflow.

  • Any positive contribution is welcome.

18
  • 1. If they aren't going to try it, then they wouldn't have a problem not be able to review posts. 2. The audits are there to deal with people not paying any attention at all, not for people who just don't understand what good content is or what the site does/doesn't want. 3. It also does the reverse, it teaches new posters to value what the same things that this question banned user values, since the whole point of those queues is to teach new users how to act. They've proven that they're not capable of doing so themselves. 4. They're not likely to make positive contributions.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 13:47
  • 3
    @Servy 1. Just because most people won't contribute, that doesn't mean we should block everyone. 2. The audits (and moderators) can block bad reviewers too. They're not just for robo-reviewers. 3. The review queues tell you why a post was flagged. There's no basis for thinking the review queues themselves are reinforcing bad habits. You're grasping at straws with this one. 4. "Not likely" does not mean "not capable." If we let people try and they fail, we lose less than if we don't let them try when they might have succeeded. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 14:03
  • 1. It's neither a reason for or against, that was my point. 2. They can but they aren't designed to do this. They're designed to be trivially easy to pass even without knowing how to review effectively so long as you're trying. Moderators banning is simply not reliable enough and doesn't scale to the size of review on SO (works fine on other sites I'd imagine). 3. For first/last post it's in the queue just for being a user's first post, that's all. It's not like this is LQP queue. The queue doesn't teach the reviewer bad habits, it's a platform for them to teach others bad habits.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 14:09
  • 4. I disagree entirely. They have a huge potential to cause harm, a strong likelihood of causing harm, a rather low potential of causing benefit, and a low likelihood of causing benefit. We absolutely have more to lose than we have to gain. If the capacity to find and stop reviewers acting inappropriately was reliable and effective, then this argument could have some merit, as their potential for harm would be rather low, but that's simply not the case with the existing review queues.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 14:10
  • @Servy I think you're putting your thumb on the scale when weighing the bad. You're also ignoring the very small likelihood that someone who's question banned will be in /review to begin with. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 14:17
  • Sure, I can accept the fact that while post banned users who do review are almost certainly causing a net harm, the fact that so few do means that we have bigger fish to fry. If that was your argument, that these users would be better off banned but it's just too much of a bother to put that in place given how rare of a situation it is, I could accept such an argument. Your claim that it probably wouldn't cause problems, that they wouldn't be significant, or that having post banned users reviewing is likely going to be a good thing, is simply something I can't get behind at all.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 14:21
  • @Servy Just one small hair to split. I don't think it's likely that having question banned users reviewing will be a good thing, I just don't think it's impossible. I think the vast majority of q-banned users won't bother trying, so the potential harm is minimized. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 14:32
  • @Servy if I may, I've only had positive votes on my reviews. I don't think I've cause any harm. But I think you get what I'm saying about been a contradiction. Managed yes, but still..
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:28
  • @boolean What do you mean by positive votes on your reviews? You mean that you're only upvoting content when you review it? If so, that can be super harmful if the content is actually problematic. Probably one of the most harmful activities that can be done is to indicate to uneducated users that a harmful, incorrect, or problematic post is in fact a quality, correct answer to the question.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:30
  • @Servy No, what I meant was that when I made an edition on a review, later on I get "points" by making it better. I've never upvoted a question just because I edited.
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 18:32
  • @boolean Then you weren't reviewing an item, you were suggesting an edit. Suggesting an edit isn't part of the review system. Reviewers are the people that determined whether or not the edit you suggested should be actually applied or not.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 20:33
  • @Servy reviewing a late answer or a first post is part of the review system
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 20:35
  • @boolean Then you edited a post from review. That doesn't mean you properly reviewed that item (of course it doesn't mean you didn't either), even if you made a valid edit. There may well been a whole host of things that you should have done for that post, ranging from voting on it, flagging it, commenting on it, including additional content in your edit, etc.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 20:37
  • @Servy no one is perfect, there's no perfect review, not even a perfect human being. I can tell you, I made a positive contribution.
    – Typo
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 20:42
  • @boolean And what's your basis for asserting that you've reviewed properly and that your contributions were positive and not negative? Looking through your review history I see a number of problematic reviews (out of the very few that there are). For example, on this review you fixed a few minor grammar issues, but one of the changes you made isn't even grammatically correct, you didn't edit a whole bunch of things that should have been edited, and you didn't flag the post for closure when it should have been.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 20:46
3

Editing isn't really worth trying to stop. The odds of a question banned user having the 2k reputation to edit posts without review is super unlikely. You'd really need to work hard to get to that point. If you're just talking about suggested edits, there still is an (admittedly somewhat dysfunctional) review process to get between bad edits actually being applied. But more importantly suggested edits can be done by even anonymous users, so if they really want to suggest an edit all they'd need to do is log out to make one.

As for first/last post reviews, while it's rather unlikely for a question banned user to have sufficient rep (most post banned users have almost no rep at all), it is a possibility that's not quite as absurd as editing. Personally I don't think that most users with only 500 rep have really started to understand the intricacies of proper posting on SO and would simply rather see the rep requirement higher in general, that's really an issue for another post.

A user that is post banned has demonstrated consistently that they lack the exact skills that they are expected to teach to other users using those review queues. If the user would make a quality reviewer I can't imagine how they could manage to get themselves post banned, as each activity is primarily based on the exact same skill set.

While we have an audit system in place for reviewers who aren't even trying at all, and who are not so much as reading the posts in question before rubber stamping them, these audits simply aren't designed to handle reviewers who are paying some slight amount of attention, but simply don't know what the proper action(s) are when reviewing a post. The existing review tools simply aren't designed to find reviewers that just don't know how to review posts. If you're lucky some user will just happen to come across a few reviews at some point and flag for moderator attention, but that simply doesn't scale to the size of the existing review queues, and isn't reliable at all.

What's worse, with the first/last posts queues in particular, there's really no particularly good ways for the reviewer to know whether or not they are reviewing effectively. Providing feedback to a new users to help them understand how to effectively use the site, determine in what ways their content can be improved to be in line with this communities values, and using moderation tools to fix or deal with inappropriate content is a very nebulous and abstract concept. If the user is "look's good"-ing all sorts of problematic posts they likely won't even recognize that they're doing something wrong and as such won't be able to learn how to act appropriately by using the queues.

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    "The existing review tools simply aren't capable of finding reviewers that just don't know how to review posts." This is false. It doesn't matter if you're hitting the wrong button because you're a robo-reviewer or because you don't know what you're doing. The wrong action is the wrong action. Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 14:08
  • @BilltheLizard You're right, it's possible for bad reviewers to fail audits, what I meant to say is that the design goal of audits is explicitly not to find or catch reviewers who are paying attention and reading the post but that just don't know what the right action(s) are. Someone simply smart enough to recognize that the post is an audit because the user card has a user with more than 10 rep, or that the post just has a ton of upvotes, or who takes the time to see if the post is deleted or one of half a dozen other checks can determine if a post is an audit without actually reviewing.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 16, 2014 at 14:15
  • So: what happens to users who try and make an effort to be in accordance? I'm banned to ask questions; no reason was given, support doesn't actually work or answer regarding this matter. I was given an answer to review my (old) questions. I was entirely "noobie" learning from scratch back then; and honestly struggled to be succinct and concise. I've reviewed all my posts. I could see that I was completely clueless before. Yet; after making all the posts better the ban is not lifted. Perhaps I should create a new account; not care at all and spit questions because anyone can.
    – user2225495
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 12:28
  • Would be effective to let users know what is wrong;and I agree with banning a user who has (for example) 5 bad questions. Ban should be kept until user reviews it.
    – user2225495
    Commented Jan 21, 2020 at 12:30
  • @Ricardo This is not the post for you to appeal your post ban.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 22, 2020 at 2:43

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