115

When handling close votes, I find myself spending more time mapping the question to a proper close reason than the OP spent energy writing the question. I'd like for there to be an option "no comment" for these kind of questions.

Case in point:

How Do i find how many section headers in PE file - C

What is an Section Header in PE file ? And how with c code can i count them ? I already tried to search in the web but didnt fount somthing that halped me .

    asked Apr 21 at 11:21

See also the very illustrative comments:

"Too broad" isn't an appropriate reason, the only appropriate reason is that the OP doesn't know how to use a search engine. Why can't we be explicit or totally generic and avoid reviewers wasting time on this?

The point of this question is to be able to make a clear distinction between questions that cannot be salvaged because the asker is clearly not capable or willing to do so.

It's about weighing the risk of wasting the reviewers' time against the risk of applying this reason to the wrong group of newbies. This question got closed as 'Too broad', and that prompts me to edit it. Sometimes prompting an OP to come back and edit is a waste of everyone's time.

Stack Overflow is quite good at protecting the system from spam, it's also great at improving itself, but it's not so good at protecting it from carelessness.

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  • 35
    If OP didn't use the search engine, you can close it as a duplicate. No comment needed. If closing it requires a comment, and you are sick and tired of it, take a break.
    – Sumurai8
    Commented Jun 28, 2014 at 18:50
  • 23
    Downvote (+ probably "unclear what you're asking": we don't know what the poster doesn't understand). You will doubtless be interested in Can we please have the "lacks minimal understanding" close reason back?
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 28, 2014 at 18:51
  • 81
    I am also seeing a large number of "Im a newbie in XXX, please explain what this does..." -- they are not programming issues, but rather lack of reading a tutorial, book or doing minimal research -- the users are able to tag the questions correctly, but they never read the tag-wiki -- as an example, the C-tag-wiki is rich in references on tutorial, but the wiki is not obvious to find -- why not prompt new users with the tag wiki of their question before they are allowed to finally post them? I can open this as a new question, you you believe being off topic for this discussion.
    – Soren
    Commented Jun 28, 2014 at 19:11
  • 52
    You can't honestly expect a "No comment" or a "You are a moron" close reason to be implemented, do you? The 1st one is useless because it doesn't clearly describe what was wrong, and the 2nd one targets the user, rather than the user's content.
    – user456814
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 1:08
  • 3
    Impossible for low rep users to see the question now that it's deleted, but I have no problem imagining what it looked like...
    – ivarni
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 10:11
  • 6
    It's not even that they don't know how to google for it, but that they refuse to do so. A comment from OP in the deleted question: "[hits on Google] dont helps me , i prefer that someone explains to me in his own words."
    – JJJ
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 10:46
  • 8
    Search engines only work if you know exactly what to search for. Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 12:32
  • 3
    In jest, no. In all seriousness, no. In fact, I didn't really ask. I just wanted to point out that I actually haven't come across them in all the time I have spent here. The point being: They are not exactly jumping on folks, lest of all those who would need them most..
    – TaW
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 18:18
  • 2
    Some SE sites have greater tolerance than others, a question like this would be closed within minutes on SO. Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 1:36
  • 8
    Calling someone a moron publicly, using a worldwide platform that reaches over 6.3 million people per day, is not professional. It's low rent. It's what people who live in low places do. It's what you'd do if you were the guy in the Garth Brooks "I Got Friends in Low Places" song. youtube.com/watch?v=7fVMlB9iif4 Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 6:21
  • 21
    Seems like commenters/close voters are placing too much emphasis on a title that was clearly written in jest. Obviously the close reason would not say "closed because you are a moron". Weasel-worded close reasons are something we're good at writing around here.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 6:39
  • 2
    @ThorbjørnRavnAndersen "And if the OP did not know that Google would be usable for that?" - Well, then OP is a moron </sarcasm>. No, but seriously, it's not StackOverflows goal or job to teach people out there how to use a search engine, or the fact that search engines exists in the first place. We should not bother trying to cater to the lowest common denominator, SO is not yahoo answers. If someone doesn't even know about google, then it's one more reason to close their question as quickly as possible...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 9:53
  • 3
    @l4mpi The original question does not mention anything else than the asker did not do an internet search and therefore is a moron. I disagree with that assessment - even Google brings up bad tutorials - as new users may not be able to search for the right words, and unable to evaluate the quality of the resources found by their searches. This does not implicitly make them morons (which I do not buy was said in jest). Also, who exactly are the "we" you are talking about? Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 15:44
  • 21
    Off topic because OP is a moron (testing)
    – user1228
    Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 16:15
  • 10
    How ironic. This question is not only moronic but it has been asked before. On many sites, in many contexts. This question should be closed. Reason? "OP is grumpy." Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 19:10

4 Answers 4

199

The real issue that I see is: why did you see a 2 month old crap question???

This was a systemic failure, many things went wrong in a house-of-cards tumble-down mode that got you to look at this junk. Roughly like this:

  • The question was ignored back in April; the mangled title was probably enough to keep SO users from looking at it. Systemic failure: the SO engine accepted a question and never noticed simple capitalization mistakes like the lower-case 'i'** and a question body that was too short and filled with spelling errors.

  • The question got a crap answer from a low-rep user. Just a link to a MSDN article. Systemic failure: the answer was accepted even though 50% of it was a just link soup and exactly matched a comment posted to the question. The user that posted the answer has a large number of downvotes. No sign that it was ever reviewed by anybody.

  • The answer got an upvote, even though it was worthless. Systemic failure: users from Southern Asia regularly get upvotes for no conceivable reason. The user's rep history has standard evidence of getting serial upvotes (3/25/11). They did not get detected, a very common mishap these days.

  • The question went dormant for two months, well on its way into the belly-lint of SO and being forgotten like it should be. Systemic failure: the SO engine today thought it was Really Important for you to have a look at it. There were about 90 questions tagged [c] today, yet it thought you should focus your energy and attention to this one. Not just you, everybody that visited today and has either [c] in their favored tags or had previous answered many C questions. Me too.

  • The question was re-activated today because of a small edit by a user with sufficient rep to make edits that don't get reviewed. Systemic failure: it pushed the question ahead of all other C questions and on to your front page just because of the removal of a [tag]. Removing a tag is of course not a reason for anybody to have to look at the question again.

  • The user that made the edit completely missed other edits that would have been appropriate. Rather obvious ones: words like "halped" cannot possibly be missed by anybody. Systemic failure: this user was robo-editing, a pattern that is trivially detectable from the rapid pace of edits but is not stopped. I see thirty pages worth of edits in the user's activity tab -- he wasn't slowed down at all. Almost any activity at SE is rate limited, but not this one for some reason.

  • The user that made the edit decided to burninate the [header] tag all by himself. Systemic failure: burnination was something that was done by a hyper-privileged user. Jeff Atwood used to take care of it in the olden days. It is now supposed to be done by his successors, like Shog9 and Tim Post, paid employees of SE. They are not doing that job and largely ignore burnination requests. Vigilante user actions like this are the result.

  • The user that made the edit re-activated a large number of questions. All utter crap, an inevitable side effect of a questioner having no clue how to tag a question properly with the equally inevitable quality problems with the question. He got my personalized front page filled with crap. I poked at it for a while and decided I had better things to do and posted no real answers today. Systematic failure: users that edit should not be able to launch a DOS attack on other users' front pages.

  • The question was destroyed by the system today, surely because of the attention it got. Systematic failure: the user of course has no idea why, got no feedback is very likely to get this wrong all over again.

This is how systems fail, a chain of little problems that all combine to make a Big Problem. Something that any software engineer should be aware of :) Going back to the core problems, I hope that the editor loses his privilege but nobody can do anything to ensure that happens. This question should have been deleted two months ago to stop the first card from falling down. That cannot happen until everybody at SO just ignores the need to pick an accurate close reason from a dialog filled with weasel words written by SE employees that are worn out from the complaining. Pick anything, it does not matter on crap like this.

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  • 34
    Um... what? Don't you want people to improve their question? By picking a random close reason, you're saying, "Hey, improve your question, but my advice is aspiewpoarwlerk." Would that make you want to come back? No. Would that help you make it better? No.
    – hichris123
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 0:38
  • 19
    I did, in fact, read the whole thing. I'm talking about the bottom part, where you say "Pick anything" and "until everybody at SO just ignores the need to pick an accurate close reason".
    – hichris123
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 0:40
  • 45
    I addressed the OP's question and explain what went wrong and how he can help to do something about that. Advising him how to spend his free time to tell morons exactly in which way they are being stupid is not something I ever considered. And I certainly don't think that any SO user is going to be helped by his question getting closed with "Too broad". They are weasel words, the "click the mouse" example is obvious nonsense that got me to post this answer. Feel free to post your own answer please. Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 0:58
  • 13
    "Removing a tag is of course not a reason for anybody to have to look at the question again." Still though, it is useful to have knowledgeable experts review new edits to questions and answers, to make sure vandalism doesn't sneak in, or worse, incorrect information that's not so obvious and harder to detect. Maybe there should be a special tab just for reviews, so that people who are only interested in answering don't have to look at them.
    – user456814
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 1:15
  • 2
    Regarding burnination, I agree that the current system is a little flawed. For example, this user has recently doing a lot of inappropriate trivial edits, all in the name of burninating the [do] tag (this user also appears to have been involved in serial upvoting sockpuppeting, given his large serial upvote reversal). I think there may have been other Meta or MSE posts about the burnination process though, I'll have to go look for them later.
    – user456814
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 1:19
  • 5
    Here's one: Let's have a different burnination process.
    – user456814
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 1:26
  • 11
    @Cupcake That's the only snippet of this answer I can even slightly disagree with. But I don't think burying these edits in yet another tab is the right approach, either. Hans already hints at the way to solve the problem: fix the burnination process so it doesn't have to be by "vigilante user actions" that require community review. The community review should have happened here on Meta (like someone tried to do), and then once community consensus is reached, should be complete by an SE employee without bumping. Sam was in the wrong here.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 5:37
  • 16
    I can only offer my humblest apologies and the assurance that I will never allow this to occur again. I do just want to say that I'm not a rogue troll from the darkest depths of the Internet, bent on seeing the utter annihilation of SO; I thoroughly enjoy working with other users on SO and regard the site as an important resource for not only me, but for the millions of other users that each contribute their own part. I would also like to take this opportunity to state how I came to that appalling state...
    – Sam
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 13:20
  • 19
    ...Which is the problem when an "eager-to-help" user is not properly informed (as I didn't find any documentation saying burnination shouldn't be done by a single user). Once again, I am sorry for any inconvenience caused. I do however, now know the proper way to participate in a burninate request, and thus I'm now a reformed editor.
    – Sam
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 13:22
  • 3
    @Payeli Thanks : ) I thought the DV's were a result of me forgetting to fix all the problems with posts as I was burninating, not a disagreement with the burninating itself. I certainly will (request [status-completed]]), thank you for clarifying.
    – Sam
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 14:27
  • 2
    It's how aircraft accidents happen !!
    – Fattie
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 20:30
  • 6
    @Hans, don't get me wrong, this is a great answer. However, only a few of your points are actionable on their own (e.g. no, I'm afraid we cannot do much about Southern-Asian members getting spurious upvotes, and I suspect they're not alone). That said, the actionable points would warrant a feature request or two IMHO, are you planning on doing that (or would you mind others doing that with your answer as a base)? Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 21:14
  • 10
    I was that user who downvoted your answer, @Sam, when I first saw it. It is likely that downvote that Payeli referred to. It is probably my mistake for not leaving a comment explaining my objection(s), but I've grown weary of leaving comments along with my downvotes, there just isn't enough time in the day. And I don't mean to shame you personally here, you were just the one responsible for this problem. Lots of people have made the same mistake that you have, it's why Hans calls this a "systemic problem", not a "rogue user" problem. The system for burnination is fundamentally broken.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 6:42
  • 5
    "even though 50% of it was a just link soup and exactly matched a comment posted to the question".... that's because the answer was converted TO a comment by a moderator; at no time did both answer and comment exist, nor did the comment pre-exist the answer, which your analysis preassumes. C'mon Hans, you're smarter than this.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 12:11
  • 3
    One might argue that this is a case for "minor" edits not causing a bump. Hm.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 1, 2014 at 1:54
101

Too Broad is absolutely the correct close reason for "lacks a minimal understanding of the problem." Here's why:

ME: Click the right mouse button.
NOOB: What's a mouse?

How much text do you suppose it will take to explain things now?

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  • 46
    I'm tempted to try a pun about my (mac) mouse not having a right button… time for a break I guess.
    – iwein
    Commented Jun 28, 2014 at 18:56
  • 13
    @iwein: I have an ever newer Mac mouse: no buttons at all. Hmmm ...
    – Jongware
    Commented Jun 28, 2014 at 20:16
  • 29
    Wait, mice have buttons?? I thought it was an hamster only thing Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 7:47
  • 7
    Sometimes I'm even surprised that they managed to write stuff on SO..
    – Marco A.
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 10:26
  • 113
    "But which button is right and which is wrong?"
    – Boann
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 10:56
  • 4
    @iwein LOL. Chances are that is has one, but it is hidden and only works when you lift your fingers from the (bigger) left button.
    – TaW
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 11:01
  • 2
    @iwein - if your mouse only has one button, then that button will be both the left and the right button. Whether it behaves as a right button is a different case. :) -Anyway, hold down control, while clicking, and you'll get the same result as if you had a multi-button mouse.
    – user1985657
    Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 11:09
  • 4
    I still feel like having something like a "Covered in the documentation" close reason could be useful. Instead of pasting a URL to another question, it would require a link to the documentation. The link could then be prominently shown above the question, instead of being hidden in the comments. Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 19:05
  • @FelixKling Such a close reason has already been proposed and it has never been accepted.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 20:39
  • 2
    @Servy: I know, doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful :)' Commented Jun 30, 2014 at 22:07
  • 1
    The problem is, that arrogant people infer a "lack of minimal understanding" in everyone else, even if they are wrong about something. This kind of close reason could ultimately be applied to anything and is extremely subjective. Commented Jan 24, 2017 at 10:08
  • 6
    I've tried the right mouse button but it doesn't seem to do anything in the StackExchange app. Come to think of it, why have I even bought a mouse for my smartphone? Commented Aug 11, 2017 at 11:34
42

We have a lot of work to do to ensure quality doesn't drop off, and Hans makes some good points about things we can take away from the post that triggered this; it's a shame they live under this particular question. Here's the answer to your question:

Because we're not interested in automating a way for someone strong at something to call someone who is weaker at it nasty names.

If you wanted serious answers to how to address a (quite legitimate) quality concern raised here, you should have asked a question that wasn't centered on an ad hominem attack. And the edit suggesting that the title was a joke doesn't change the fact that the question calls the specific user who made the post a "moron":

Case in point (for users under 10K). See also the very illustrative comments. "Too broad" isn't an appropriate reason, the only appropriate reason is that the OP doesn't know how to use a search engine and therefore is a moron.

That's simply not acceptable behavior here. This is supposed to be a place that's different . We don't allow any old question - and to be clear, I obviously agree 100% that that one's unwelcome.

But we also don't allow the kind of broken windows like spam, bigotry, and petty name-calling that litter up many other sites. We have real work to do to ensure we keep quality from falling, but we're not going to turn into someplace where it's okay to call some real human being a "moron" to do it.

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  • 1
    Just to clarify, "I'd just assume air out..."? Did you mean 'as soon' by any chance? Commented Jul 1, 2014 at 0:20
  • 4
    @DavidThomas, 1) Yes, that's exactly what I meant. 2) In the interest of full disclosure, it wasn't a typo - you've just taught me that I've been mangling that phrase, Archie-Bunker-style, my whole life. 3) The only silver lining was that the top hit was someone else just as confused asking on English.SE. Urp.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Jul 1, 2014 at 2:16
  • 3
    I vented and made my point. I'll delete it now. FWIW I'm perfectly fine being called a moron myself if that is appropriate, but that might be cultural.
    – iwein
    Commented Jul 1, 2014 at 8:09
  • Strike that, deleting now is vandalism too. I've created a bit of a problem I guess, how about "OP is a jerk" for this question :p. I hope you think my edit is appropriate.
    – iwein
    Commented Jul 1, 2014 at 8:17
  • 11
    This answer stumbles over a single word, completely missing the point of the post, which is whether a reviewer spending more time deciding how to choose a close reason than the asker spent composing eir question is a problem, and if so, how to deal with it. iwein also proposed "no comment" as a close reason, but you have skipped right past that. The inflammatory verbiage detracts from the point, yes, but that deserves a comment, not an answer denying the premise because of the form.
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 1, 2014 at 18:44
  • 2
    @JoshCaswell, I thought I acknowledged that - there's an issue in here worthy of discussion, but it's really hard to have that discussion without focusing on the fact that this question's original title and main suggestion involved calling users who don't know much names. And the post actually called a real user that name. Credit to iwein for being open minded in his edits, but the constructive discussion your looking for wants for a new post, I think, no?
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Jul 2, 2014 at 1:58
  • 4
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. You believe that this question was hopelessly derailed from the start by iwein's choice of words. I believe you're making too much of those few words. Let me put this to you: what if you had tried to switch tracks by either ignoring the unconstructive bits, as Hans and Robert did, or, better, editing them out to focus on the real idea?
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 2, 2014 at 3:20
  • 1
    @JoshCaswell fixed it?
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 2, 2014 at 16:12
  • 1
    Right on, @Cupcake. Nice edit.
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 2, 2014 at 16:47
12

A no-comment close reason wouldn't tell the user what they did wrong and why it's wrong.

The motivation behind most close-reasons is to explain to the user "You don't seem to understand how this website works. This is what your mistake was". The author will then hopefully either ask more constructive questions in the future, or at least they will understand that this is not the kind of website they are looking for and will stop pestering us.

A "Closed for obvious reasons" close-reason might be obvious to you, but it might not be obvious to the user. Incompetent people do not realize they are incompetent. The most likely reaction is that they will create a new question asking why their previous question was closed, which is even more annoying.

Does the user deserve your advise?

Maybe not.

But the community deserves that you do your best to get them to improve anyway so they don't have to deal with them anymore.

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    Don't forget motivating the user to salvage that closed question if possible. Commented Jul 2, 2014 at 17:22

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