64

There is a common situation on SO where people don't have the ability to ask a good question because they don't understand the concepts at hand well enough. If they were able to ask the question eloquently, they probably wouldn't need to ask it. But instead of meeting the person halfway and pointing them in the right direction, people just enjoy downvoting these questions. I think the SO community needs to decide if it wants to be friendly to beginners or continue being elitist.

Example:

"How do I automatically break up my content into multiple pages and then put the little links at the bottom that change automatically depending on how much content there is?"

This is an obscure question that would instantly get downvoted on SO for whatever reason, when It's not the askers fault he's never heard the word "pagination" before. All we as a community need to do is meet him/her halfway and give him that info, but instead we just downvote it into the dirt.

Or another question I saw recently was someone describing all sorts of strange output behavior from a PHP echo because he didn't understand the concept of escape quotes. Again, downvotes.

Do you think this type of downvoting is ok? If not, what should be done to change the culture?

11
  • 71
    Why do people who ask elementary question not bother doing basic research? Why don't they look to see if the answer already exists on the site?
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:51
  • 12
    Also see: blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/06/optimizing-for-pearls-not-sand
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 20:52
  • 14
    Why is research important?
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:22
  • 3
    Downvoting is a subjective decision. You can make the choice to add a comment telling the user, "this is called pagination", and stop there. You can downvote the question because you feel that the they should have [fill in arbitrary reason]. Or, you can do both. Why do they downvote? Sometimes it's easier than adding valuable comments. Sometimes the user already asked a string of bad questions. Sometimes.. the downvoter has just had a long day, and is tired. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:42
  • 2
    Pagination!!! Wow, I'm really not good at this guessing game. I would have guessed PDF Viewer, or some other equally incorrect answer. Commented Dec 2, 2014 at 4:59
  • 13
    'people just enjoy downvoting these questions' assumption born of malice//jealosy/whatever. Just another rude/abusive slur on curators. Same old, same old.... Commented Aug 16, 2021 at 3:12
  • 6
    'friendly to beginners or continue being elitist' 'have you stopped beating your wife' insult. Commented Aug 16, 2021 at 3:14
  • 2
    'Do you think this type of downvoting is ok?' no, assuming it exists, which you have not shown. Commented Aug 16, 2021 at 3:16
  • 5
    'If not, what should be done to change the culture?' What 'culture'? Inappropriate and insulting use of wording to imply that a substantial and growing demographic is maliciously downvoting. No evidence or numbers given. Commented Aug 16, 2021 at 3:20
  • 4
    'meeting the person halfway' is often not possible because the OP, downloaded the code or took money to provide homework answers. If the OP it not comptent to understand questions, never mind answers, there is no point in trying. Commented Aug 16, 2021 at 3:24
  • 1
    "> Asking a question on Stack Overflow should be the last step in your process for finding an answer" - pure gold meta.stackoverflow.com/a/261593/555121
    – user555121
    Commented Dec 15, 2021 at 10:45

4 Answers 4

54

Yes, I think this type of downvoting is ok.

There's a big difference between not understanding something and asking a poorly researched and effortless question.

If you don't understand something, the first step is to Google it: that will probably lead you to SO anyway.

By "Google it," I don't mean search the first few words of your issue and click on the first result. Your question has to be well-researched to be received positively by the community, so you might as well start here by putting some effort in to find the answer yourself, even if it's not word-for-word what you're looking for.

Everything about Stack Overflow is designed to discourage you from asking a question. By the time you have done all of the steps to make your question as good as it should be, your question should either be answered or of extremely high quality.

After you've researched and researched enough that you're absolutely certain that your question doesn't have a sufficient answer anywhere else and you've gone through the trouble of writing a question with proper spelling/grammar, formatting, and examples and you've spelled out your problem completely and clearly, you will either have answered it yourself or provided a question worth answering.

The problem is not with "easy questions". The problem is questions that are low quality, not researched, and effortless. There is a difference.

The "unavoidable" (as you call it) overlap that Servy mentions is unavoidable because people who are new to a language are inevitably going to have "elementary" questions, but if they went to the trouble of researching and spelling out their questions properly, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

The best thing to do here is to reference the actual site: as per the downvote tooltip,

This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful.

In many cases, that's exactly what these "elementary" questions are.

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  • 5
    stackoverflow.com/questions/24440375/… This poor kid could research arrays till he's blue in the face, because he doesn't know he's looking at an object. Classic example. But point taken.
    – bennett_an
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:30
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    @bennett_an As zerkms stated: "We have no idea what this is, it's your code. It's you who put it there. So it must be you who knows what it is." Only, it wasn't the OP's code because it was from ask.fm, so there was no research at all. SO was effectively the method of choice for "here's some code: explain it to me."
    – AstroCB
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:34
  • 2
    Do you really mean "effortless", instead of "badly written" or "hastily scrawled"? Because we are only concerned with the result, not the amount of sweat which lead to it (though too little of the latter invariably leads to the former being bad). Commented Feb 18, 2015 at 15:33
  • how is this supposed to square with meta.stackexchange.com/q/8724/997587 and meta.stackexchange.com/q/5280/997587 ?
    – starball
    Commented Oct 15, 2023 at 6:58
  • smart people will never understand the issue not-so-smart people is facing, we did research, but because of lack of knowledge in the area, we're not able to provide the accurate information about the question, that's when a good teacher comes in: take in a very dumb question, and from the question they can see what pieces this student is missing. before you blame someone didn't google, try to think of another possibility: they did lots of research, but still couldnt figure it out Commented Feb 23 at 18:53
43

You're incorrectly conflating question quality with question difficulty. The two are very different concepts, even if they do often overlap.

Questions are not downvoted because they are easy to solve, just like questions are not upvoted just because they're hard to solve.

Questions are evaluated based on quality metrics such as doing sufficient research, being clear, being answerable, containing sufficient information, being appropriately scoped, etc.

When first learning a particular concept (programming or not) there tend to be a lot of frequently asked questions, and as a result, a lot of quality, discoverable information answering those questions. Because of this, questions asked by users new to a particular topic are usually poorly researched (when the author does do their research, they find the answer and don't need to ask the question). When the answer to a question isn't discoverable then the questions do tend to be well received, regardless of difficulty.

Questions from such users also have a higher probability of being unclear, inappropriately scoped, lacking important information, etc. because the user lacks sufficient knowledge of the topic to properly form a question. While this may or may not have "inexperience" as a root cause, the fact remains that the site's feedback is purely on the quality of the question, not on its difficulty.

When beginners do ask quality questions that meet the site's guidelines then they tend to be well received. When experienced programmers ask hard questions that don't meet the site's quality standards they generally aren't well received.

So while there is a correlation between beginner questions and downvotes, there is no causation.

Questions aren't downvoted just for spiteful pleasure. Low quality questions are downvoted because it's the best way to help maintain the health of the site. It provides a useful signal to other potential readers that the question has problems, it tells the author that the question is currently not up to the site's standards and should be improved, and it helps inform the system's evaluation of the user, so that if they fail to learn from their mistakes and repeatedly post problematic content the system can help deal with that problem.

At the end of the day it is the user's responsibility to ask a question that meets the site's standards. We provide tons of resources to help people ask good questions, in the help center, on meta, as comments on questions that have problems, through close reason text, through editing, and so on. While we do try to do a lot to enable users to ask good questions, we can't do everything, and many of the things we can do (editing, comments, etc.) are very time consuming and draining on the community.

While it would be nice for every single question to get personalized and detailed feedback on it's quality from multiple different users, there simply aren't enough people willing/able to tutor every single new user in how to ask a good question (because after all asking good questions is hard). While users are encouraged to help out when they can, to the degree that they want, they are not obligated to hold the hand of every single user through the question asking process. At some point responsibility falls to the author to learn how to ask a proper question.

4
  • It's when they do overlap (unavoidably often) that I think people should be given the benefit of the doubt. That is my whole point.
    – bennett_an
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:04
  • 8
    @bennett_an The whole point is that the skill of the person asking the question is not relevant at all. Either the question is a good question, or it's not. Whether it's easy or hard is irrelevant, and has no bearing on whether or not it should be answered. If it's a bad question, then the proper action is to downvote it and vote to close it. It doesn't matter whether it's a bad question due to an inability to ask a good question or just laziness, it's still a bad question either way.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:07
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    @bennett_an you don't have to be an expert at a subject to ask a good question about it. It requires that you think hard about exactly what you want, and try to compose your question so that It's clear to the reader. If you're writing a question, and you haven't spent at least 10 minutes researching and 10 minutes composing the question, then you haven't put forward enough effort. Commented Jun 26, 2014 at 21:08
  • Bump. you think hard about exactly what you want, and try to compose your question so that It's clear to the reader. I would argue that this, unfortunately, is also a skill. And so, in a sense, downvotes go to questioners who show little effort or skill at critical thinking.
    – xdhmoore
    Commented Sep 5, 2015 at 23:57
5

On balance, I don't mind that honest but naive people sometimes get scared off. If I have any doubt about the nature of the poster, I usually try to give a pointer to something useful along with my downvote and close vote; an honest but naive asker will learn something and hopefully get what they wanted out of the comment. If they don't get what they wanted, they can probably fix the question up so that it's closer to acceptable.

Too often, though, the asker comes back shortly afterward with a worse version of essentially the same question demonstrating no added knowledge or comprehension. These people suck, and they seem to ask the vast majority of bad questions. They suck up lots of people's time and energy on SO. The downvote-and-close is meant to discourage these people from coming back because they make everything worse.

-11

It sure seems that some people just "drive by down vote".

Do a quick search of "wpf". Every morning all the new questions get downvoted regardless of the question quality.

In almost every thread on the site there is someone who feels the need to interject something negative, not providing any real contribution.

That's the culture here, it's been like that for over a decade. So no, it's not helpful.

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    Over that same time frame content quality has also gone down. Coincidence or causation?
    – charlietfl
    Commented Dec 12, 2021 at 19:51
  • 1
    Indeed. Good question.
    – DaveCS
    Commented Dec 12, 2021 at 19:54
  • 9
    I see this phrase "drive-by downvote" used a lot. What the heck does it mean? Am I supposed to, like, camp out on a post that I rate as low quality? Why in the world would I stick around to interact with a post that I obviously think is low quality and/or uninteresting (it is obvious that I think so, for I just downvoted it). All downvotes are "drive-by" in this sense, which makes the phrase meaningless. If you're trying to imply that someone should post a comment when downvoting… no, absolutely not. In fact, we strongly discourage users from doing so, and definitely don't expect it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 14, 2021 at 11:19
  • 12
    People “drive-by downvote” for a reason. I downvoted an answer yesterday, explaining in a comment that it was redundant (same answer was already posted 5 times.) This morning I wake up to 5 downvotes on my questions and spurious close votes on them. People are very protective of their imaginary internet points and it’s tiring to deal with this kind of nonsense
    – miken32
    Commented Dec 14, 2021 at 14:05
  • @miken32 revenge/"serial" downvoting is an entirely separate problem, and it's one that the system attempts to correct for automatically. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:36
  • 3
    @KarlKnechtel Downvoting on the user is only one of the ways unreasonable people take "justice" by their own hands (other forms include persistent insults through comments and off-site harassment), so the original point that downvoting without leaving a comment, as described by Cody Gray, is admitted as the de facto and recommended modus operandi, pretty much stands.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 15:52

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