43

Take a look at this question:

Image to serve as reference for users with less than 10k rep

It is clearly off-topic, yet there will always be people who will answer it and not flag it. What should we do about these people:

  • Leave a comment on the answer to tell that person to flag these kind of question in the future and not answer them?
  • Downvote the answer?
  • Flag the answer?
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  • 51
    These users have a name; "Give meh teh repz"...
    – Sam
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 16:46
  • 7
    There ought to be a way to freeze questions linked to from meta. It has been deleted, and while I'm sure it should have been, it can no longer be viewed. That makes this question less relevant than if the original question had been saved. Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 20:47
  • 3
    @MatthewJohnson it can still be viewed for people with enough reputation, I can see it.
    – eis
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 20:52
  • 25
    @eis That leaves the rest of us newbies still in the dark though, and we can arguably be the ones that need to see to see it the most to learn from it. Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 20:55
  • 10
    Here too: stackoverflow.com/questions/24149462/… maybe since yours is deleted we can replace it with mine. Four 50k+ rep users answered it instead of closing it.
    – durron597
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 21:01
  • 2
    @durron597, that one is low quality and probably useless to others, but not "clearly offtopic".
    – otus
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 21:09
  • 1
    @BenjaminGruenbaum You have my vote, though sadly that just put it at +1 (out of 11 votes cast). Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 21:19
  • 2
    On an optimistic note as somebody who is new to StackOverflow and trying to gain rep/badges: I've considered trying to provide an answer to off-topic questions to earn the Reversal badge. Perhaps ridding of this badge could help. Also, how does your screenshot have the title of this post in the community section o.O
    – Sam Berry
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 22:24
  • 22
    Why does it matter if it's off-topic according to some lame rules. Truth be told I find the off-topic questions to be some of the most interesting. And ya'll can make fun of the rep-whores all you want truth be told most of the rep you guys have is simply because you could ask "off-topic" questions back in the day and they garnered a lot of rep cause they were interesting. I say leave the poor people alone.
    – Uncle Iroh
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 23:40
  • 7
    What you are unable to answer is not anyone's concern. You shouldn't impose your inadequacies on others. If someone can answer, he will. The purpose of this site is not to serve your own ideological purposes.
    – Jack M.
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 23:49
  • 2
    People would answer (1) off-topic, (2) obvious duplicates, (3) any other junk. There is no way that you can or you should care about anyone answering anything.
    – devnull
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 2:34
  • 11
    Don't punish the answerer. Maybe they're trying to help. Don't assume they're always out to get teh repz.
    – Keith
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 17:09
  • 5
    "Don't punish the answerer. Maybe they're trying to help. Don't assume they're always out to get teh repz." +1
    – BrunoLM
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 0:07
  • 6
    Agreed with Bruno and Keith. Now don't get mad at me, but I have no particular affection to StackOverflow, I don't care about helping it. (No malice either.) If someone asks a question they need help with that I know the answer to, I'm happy to help them, even if it is slightly at the expense of the site.
    – JKillian
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 1:41
  • 2
    Why does the Reversal badge even exist, given this kind of situation? It promotes answering questions which have been downvoted, presumably for a reason(s)?
    – Gorbles
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 11:09

5 Answers 5

77

You're certainly welcome to leave a comment if you want. I find that most people just get angry at you for calling them out and have no interest in reforming their behavior, after all, answering these questions earns them way more rep than closing them. If you want to try though, feel free.

You're certainly allowed to downvote these posts, although I find that they're that much more likely to get pity upvotes if you downvote them when they don't already have a positive score. If the community as a whole didn't upvote these answers and, as a group, consistently downvoted them, then it would actually deter them. Sadly, it tends to not do so. Answers like these only need to get 1 upvote for each four downvotes to come out ahead, which they usually will end up doing. So as much as I wish this was the solution, and it certainly is in theory, in practice it's often counter-productive. (There are of course occasional exceptions, such as meta-effect cases, as is happening here, but while these answers are occasionally downvoted, they're still not consistently downvoted.)

You shouldn't be flagging the answers. There is no corresponding flag for answering a question that should be closed.

The one thing not on your list, which is the one somewhat (but not hugely) effective tool that we have to deal with this problem, is actually deleting these types of questions (they of course need to be closed first). If answers know that questions like these will consistently be deleted, they'll learn to not waste their time answering them. The problem here is that in most cases these answers get upvoted first, and the rep is removed later. Many people don't realize when these posts get deleted, or if they do, the diagrammed positive feedback is more physiologically overwhelming than the usually long deferred removal of that positive feedback, meaning that it can often take a while (up to forever) for people to learn to not answer these types of questions.

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  • 31
    If it takes longer than 60 days for the question to be deleted then anyone with a 3+ scoring answer gets to keep the rep. Which is actually an argument for down-voting the answers to make sure they stay below that threshold.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 16:46
  • 15
    @ChrisF If downvoting the answers didn't just induce more pity upvotes, I'd actually encourage doing it. As it is, downvoting an answer like this is more likely to increase the rep it generates, not decrease it. (Unless its score is already positive.)
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 16:48
  • 5
    I wasn't thinking of getting the answer into negative score, just making sure that it was less than 3 when the question gets deleted.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 19:17
  • 2
    How about keeping people from either upvoting or downvoting on closed answers?
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 21:09
  • 8
    I was never aware that deleted questions revokes any gained reputation. It might be useful to include a note near the answer prompt stating this. Something to the effect of "This question has been flagged for [reason]. If the question is deleted, any earned answer reputation will be removed." This should help discourage individuals from answering garbage questions.
    – Mr. Llama
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 21:13
  • 2
    @GigaWatt For reasons that I explain in my answer, it's actually not a particularly effective deterrent. Many people posting these answers know that the rep goes away if the post is deleted, they also know that the odds of the question being deleted are quite low. This question was only deleted because of the meta effect.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 21:15
  • 2
    I don't think down voting appropriate answers to un-appropriate/closeable questions is an honest course of action. It's not that the answer wasn't good it's that you've become myopic in your wikipediaish overlord ways.
    – Uncle Iroh
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 23:45
  • 5
    I wish there was a meta-meta-SO where I could ask the question: "Why are meta-SO users so often surprised by people behaving exactly according to the incentives under which they operate?"
    – danh
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 0:20
  • 4
    @UncleIroh These types of questions are to be closed specifically because they don't create useful content. They create low quality content that isn't actually helpful to the programming community. Answering these questions is generally not particularly helpful for exactly the reasons that these types of questions get closed. In addition to not being helpful, then end up being actively harmful to the community by encouraging people to continue to post these questions that we don't want here. The only way we'll ever be able to better combat low quality questions is to not answer them.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 14:19
  • 1
    @danh I wouldn't go with surprised so much as disappointed. Just because it's expected doesn't mean it's not depressing that people care more about imaginary internet points than anything else.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 14:20
  • 3
    People, why does it matter to you that some poor sod gets scrawny 5-10 reps for an actual answer (albeit to an off-topic question)? Why do you consider this to be a problem at all? If they want to do it, let them do it, it's not like they taking the rep away from you? Is it a case of irrational irritation? Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 1:14
  • "You shouldn't be flagging the answers. There is no corresponding flag for answering a question that should be closed." Maybe there should be? Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 11:22
  • 4
    @zespri This isn't about rep. Rep is just a means to an end. Rep is a way of encouraging people to provide quality contributions to the site so that this is a place where people can come to find high quality content. This is a problem because it results in people posting low quality content and continuing to do so because they are given positive feedback for a negative behavior. The fact that they are getting rep for bad behavior is itself not the problem, it's the fact that they are encouraged to provide more bad content that is the real problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 12:51
  • @Mr.Llama I'd upvote that if you made a feature request thread. It might be a good deterrent for people only interested in rep in general.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 16:19
  • I agree with your central statement: "You shouldn't be flagging the answers. There is no corresponding flag for answering a question that should be closed." Flag/Close the questions. Downvote them so that the community can delete them.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Nov 29, 2014 at 1:41
38

What should we do about these people?

From your end? Nothing that you wouldn't do normally. As a community? Nothing at all.

As always, every user is free to vote however they please, with absolutely no need to justify it. I can give you an upvote just because I think your username is cool, or I can downvote you because your answer, while good, sounds a bit snarky to me. So if you just so happen to hate the fact that "these people" answer these kinds of questions... downvote them and move on. If you feel that strongly about it, go ahead and leave a comment, but you shouldn't expect it to affect anything.

I think it's a bit lacking in good faith to say that people who answer these questions are solely out for reputation (or are "Give meh teh repz" users, as Sam says in the comments below the question). It's genuinely possible that people just want to... you know... help. Take the example in the OP. The person's answer isn't particularly high-quality. He certainly wasn't putting in a ton of effort into his answer to make it stunning. He just happened to know of a tool that might help the asker.

Of course, it could very well be possible that he just posted the answer to get reputation, regardless of anything else. But I think it's dangerous for that to be the default assumption. While I'm fairly cynical myself, I think attempting to create policy which is based off that cynicism -- especially when it's related to new users -- will end very poorly for Stack Overflow.

So: let's not "do" anything about these people. The normal mechanisms of the site work fine in this situation. And if you see such an answer, and it gets a couple of upvotes, I don't think 20 or 30 reputation is going to break the rep market.

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  • "every user is free to vote however they please" -- True, but there is quite clear guidance on how they should vote - an upvote means "This answer is useful" and a downvote means "This answer is not useful". It is not supposed to mean "This person annoys me"
    – Stuart
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 10:09
  • 3
    @Stuart Sure. But I've seen votes be used for other things too often to think that that's the case. For example, lots of people serially downvote every answer to questions that they deem are too low quality, just to punish them for answering a trivial question. Has nothing to do with the usefulness of the answer.
    – asteri
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 14:20
5

Only the comment is likely to have any effect, and even then, not very likely. Don't flag, that's a waste of moderator's time. Downvoting probably isn't worth it, since the question, along with the answer and your downvote, are likely to be deleted relatively soon anyway.

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  • 12
    No, they aren't deleted. Mods don't do it. Community doesn't do it since there are upvotes and accepts.
    – bjb568
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 20:12
  • 2
    @bjb568: the question linked from this one is already deleted. QED.
    – Wooble
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 20:31
  • 17
    Meh, that's just because of meta.
    – bjb568
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 20:33
  • 8
    why should it be deleted if it's upv oted and accepted. Someone had a problem and someone else had a solution that helped them. So many whiner admins on SO.
    – Uncle Iroh
    Commented Jun 10, 2014 at 23:46
  • @bjb568 If they are clearly off topic, they are deleted. Maybe if they aren't deleted, they aren't as clearly off topic as some people thought.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 20:07
  • 3
    If somebody asks about pasta and waffles and gets an answer, shouldn't it be deleted anyway?
    – bjb568
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 20:54
  • "Only the comment is likely to have any effect..." - if that was going to work, it likely would have worked by now. Its another failure in Stack Overflow leadership. We don't have the policy or the tools to do anything.
    – jww
    Commented Dec 26, 2014 at 8:08
-1

To expand on one of things @JeffGohlke's mentioned in his answer regarding the unthinking derision of users for rep farming "Give me teh reps":

This sentiment is incredibly common, but thats what the rep system exists for: incentive. In a Coding Horror post that I can't for the life of me find now, Jeff Atwood is describing the phenomenon of SO's rise and refers to SO as "an expert economy".

SO's currency is recognition, and it is both a boon and a curse. A boon because it is the incentive for activity in the community; a curse because it places active membership out of the reach of new members.

As a fairly junior rep member, I have posted on Meta before about wanting to give back to the SE/SO community because I can not imagine surviving in my career without it. But my rep level prevents me from contributing in any meaningful way (I can not yet vote to close... etc... etc...) so my options with regards to off topic questions are extremely limited.

My point (if I have one): I do not support the idea that users who answer off-topic questions are somehow damaging to the community: there is a culture eating away at this site that the time people spend answering questions (on and off-topic) is not to be valued and applauded.

As is my prerogative, I occasionally upvote answers that are not entirely correct, given the time spent on the answering.

Devaluing participation (of whatever kind) on SO is a cancer that will, given enough time (and competition from other sites), eat away at SO's integrity and status.

EDIT (in response to @jmac's comment: I certainly agree that there is widespread concern on mSO for the quality of content and its relationship to the site's integrity and I am not at all advocating for filling SO with unhelpful information - my primary concern is for a kind of succession planning and I most definitely didn't explain that well enough.

There are a new generation of programmers, starting programming every day, who will use SO as arguably the most important sources of information and education. If we devalue their participation by reacting punitively because they answered a question that is off-topic (either due to rep-farming OR inexperience in site policies), we are potentially driving away an incredibly important element of the changing SO userbase. And we are doing this before they even have a chance to engage with the community and make their case for change heard (for instance by participating here in mSO).

Community moderation is the backbone of SO, so the closing of off-topic and inappropriate questions is right, but I can see no merit in advocating for punitive action against junior members providing answers for off-topic questions.

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  • Could you clarify this point? "Devaluing participation (off whatever kind) on SO is a cancer that will, given enough time (and competition from other sites), eat away at SO's integrity and status." From where I stand, it seems like a lot of people on meta take the opposite stance -- that SO's integrity is being eaten away at because we have too much participation from not-so-helpful sources. Do you really think that signaling that bad content is bad will make SO a worse resource?
    – jmac
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 2:14
  • @jmac sure. I'll add an edit to my post as my clarification is too long for a comment.
    – hammus
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 3:04
  • Great edit leemo! That explains it much better. I fully agree that we shouldn't punish new users for having their heart in the right place. Do you have a suggestion for how to handle the problem in a different way? It's fine if you don't, of course, but if you can think of a way to prevent the problem without punishing the new users, that would seem to be the best of both worlds.
    – jmac
    Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 3:29
  • 1
    I think its nonsense that devaluing any kind of participation is a cancer. Valuing negative participation is a cancer itself: it feeds negative participation. Negative participation is "actions that are not in line with the stated policies and guidelines". Because the stated policies are guidelines are there to lead to the desired outcome for the site. Otherwise why have them? Which leads us to the problem with answering offtopic questions. We have massive effort and infrastructure weeding these out, yet we allow encouragement of them by answering them. Doesn't make sense. Commented May 15, 2015 at 1:58
-1

Just let it be. Why should it bother you? There is no problem with answering off-topic questions. Act yourself upon the question, not the answers. Also downvoting an answer simply just because it answers off-topic question is unfair and a bad practice. Think why there is [badge:reversal].

So, as for your question "What should we do about these people", I would say definitely none of your 3 proposed bullets. Not only wouldn't that been any helpful, I would say it could be even harmful in certain situations.

The system is set up as it is for a reason. Once enough people agree that the question should be closed, it is closed and no answers can be added to the question. I don't see any reason why should you be bothered about this any more.


PS: cannot agree more with romkyns comment below: "As someone who got an answer from an "off-topic" (not really) closed question that has an answer, I agree with this. Some people answer not because they want rep, but because they find the question sufficiently relevant. The number of upvotes on the question and the answers often makes it clear that the closure was dubious." (copied it here as comments get sometimes "cleaned").

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  • 12
    There are two primary problems with answering these questions. 1) These questions are not allowed here for a reason. They are very likely to result in very low quality answers, and very unlikely to result in quality answers, as such, when people are answering them, they're virtually always low quality answers as is exactly the case here. 2) Attempting to answer questions that don't belong here encourages people to continue to ask questions that don't belong here, and providing positive feedback to these low quality answers on low quality questions encourages people to post them more.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 17:17
  • 1
    Servy, the system is set up as it is for a reason. Once enough people agree that the question should be closed, no answers could be added to the question.
    – Tomas
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 17:20
  • 8
    Which tells you that we don't want these questions to be answered. The fact that you are capable to do something that is clearly harmful doesn't mean that you should. The tools that we, as a community, have at our disposal to deal with these problematic posts include, among other things, the ability to downvote them. If you want to claim that people can post bad answers to bad questions just because they can, then it's rather hypocritical of you to say that people shouldn't be downvoting the bad answers when they clearly can.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 17:20
  • 4
    You seem to think that any content is good content. SO was founded on the premise that that is false. This was designed to be a site where people come to find quality content, where there is a quality standard that the community should uphold. Advocating the removal of that quality standard is contrary to the entire reason this site was created in the first place, and the primary reason it has been so successful.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 17:23
  • Servy, closed question can't be answered. Until it's closed, we honestly don't know if the question is worth closing or not. This is how the reviewing system is set up.
    – Tomas
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 17:23
  • 6
    But that's not what you're saying in your answer, "There is no problem with answering off-topic questions." You claim that it's a good thing to answer questions that you know are off topic. That's very different than saying that it's okay to answer a question that you are unsure if it is off topic or not, or a question that you incorrectly thought was on topic. Additionally, once it does become clear that the question is not acceptable, your last point falls apart entirely.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 17:25
  • 1
    As someone who got an answer from an "off-topic" (not really) closed question that has an answer, I agree with this. Some people answer not because they want rep, but because they find the question sufficiently relevant. The number of upvotes on the question and the answers often makes it clear that the closure was dubious. Commented Jun 13, 2014 at 16:59
  • 1
    @romkyns EXACTLY! Cannot agree with this more. Many times it happens that questions closed as off-topic are very useful, relevant and also receive a lot of upvotes. I was afraid to say it loud, opinios like this get smashed quickly :-)
    – Tomas
    Commented Jun 14, 2014 at 10:14

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