35
votes

We recently had a discussion about the appropriate tag to use for the Swift programming language. Swift is Apple's successor to Objective-C, which is currently the 16th most popular tag on Stack Overflow. The tag it ended up with (due to unilateral moderator action, not community consensus) is .

This is the first time that the -language tag suffix has been appended to the name of a language with more than 50 questions. (Swift collected more than 1000 in the first week.) The stated reason for this inconsistent deviation is to prevent confusion between this new tag, which is likely to become one of the most active tags on the site, and the tag, which has averaged two posts per month.

The original discussion didn't make it entirely clear whether the community felt that this tag was more appropriate than simply using , so let's conduct a poll. (Adding poll answers to the existing discussion wouldn't work very well at this point, as they would be hard to notice among the other posts.)


For clarity, please upvote the tag name(s) you prefer and do not cast downvotes. Only upvotes should be considered when evaluating poll results. Please refrain from posting any non-tag answers; further discussion should take place in the comments or the original thread.


 Standings After 24 Hours

                 : 160 upvotes

         : 62 upvotes

     : 20 upvotes

16
  • People who post options don't end up getting a vote on their option. This should be accounted for.
    – Veedrac
    Jun 9, 2014 at 23:14
  • This is certainly not the first time a tag has had language appended, it's quite common in situations where the tag might be ambiguous (the tag search doesn't show everything).
    – Ben
    Jun 10, 2014 at 5:18
  • 3
    @Ben Someone pointed out iolanguage to me (which is a very reasonable case, given how fundamental and common "IO" is as a term). However, even that has only 45 questions, and a data explorer query shows that this suffix has not been used for any other tags with more than a dozen questions. (I am ignoring cases where "language" is part of the language name itself, and only considering cases where it was added.) I reject your claim that it is "quite common".
    – Jeremy
    Jun 10, 2014 at 5:29
  • Why not NSSwift or ObjectiveC.NET?
    – user1228
    Jun 10, 2014 at 14:07
  • Because nobody calls swift NSSwift or ObjectiveC.NET? Jun 10, 2014 at 14:11
  • 2
    Why not downvote tags? Seems a easy way to get to the real number. Either way, the community will triumph.
    – crthompson
    Jun 10, 2014 at 14:17
  • @paqogomez Then everyone would have to cast three votes instead of one, for the same eventual result. Why make everyone go through the hassle? It could also result in unpopular poll options being faded, making them harder to notice for later voters. In general, there's also the (very small but possible) risk that someone posting a very poorly-received poll option could have that contribute to a post ban on the site, which seems unfair.
    – Jeremy
    Jun 10, 2014 at 17:37
  • I am with @paqogomez here. That is also how you vote even for potential moderators. Jun 10, 2014 at 17:58
  • I do not understand how something can be "incorrect" when you confirm that in your next sentence that it is correct, but anyway, I downvoted what I did not like because I think it is better. Why is it such a big problem anyhow? Jun 10, 2014 at 18:01
  • I do not think you write the rules on Stack Overflow. Upvote/downvote is there for a (good) reason. When you ask the community's opinion, it is unfair to force them into a situation like this where you write some limiting rules. Moreover, there can be a difference between I like this, but I do not mind others and I like this, and I mind others. I am still unsure why you make a fuss about it. Jun 10, 2014 at 18:06
  • @FinalContest Vote however you want. Including the downvotes actually helps my preferred tag win. I'm just trying to keep things fair by encouraging consistent and unambiguous voting behaviour, which at this point means only upvoting because that's what the majority of participants have implicitly agreed to.
    – Jeremy
    Jun 10, 2014 at 18:10
  • If the most upvoted is the one in question, eventually, I downvoted it because it is way too generic, sorry. I personally think apple-swift will be less confusing, and the most upvoted will result in many mistakenly tagged questions against the swift scripting language. In fact, I think apple-swift should exist regardless a synonym or main for people preferring clear distinction. Jun 10, 2014 at 18:11
  • I dont program in the language, so I dont give a toss what its called, though it seems that the community is beginning to set a favorite. As for consistency, I think standard MSO up down rules show consistency.
    – crthompson
    Jun 10, 2014 at 18:14
  • This type of voting does not make it fair imho for such things without discussion period and then voting when it is thoroughly discussed. The early proposals get more votes and then the mass effect may also follow. That is why I think starting the vote simultaneously is a more fair procedure for things like this. Jun 10, 2014 at 18:18
  • @FinalContest The discussion started more than week ago, in the other thread, and all three of the options below were posted within ten minutes of each other. I think this meets your criteria for fairness.
    – Jeremy
    Jun 10, 2014 at 20:34

4 Answers 4

6
votes

Done and done. I'd like to congratulate for its overwhelming victory.

Please allow time for caches to update to see all changes.

1
  • 4
    Oh yay. I like that one.
    – bjb568
    Jun 11, 2014 at 8:19
161
votes

20
  • 9
    Why would you call it anything other than swift? Javascript is Javascript, Ruby is Ruby, c++ is c++ and so and so forth.
    – Johnston
    Jun 9, 2014 at 23:13
  • 5
    The problem is that most of the most popular languages that aren't commonly used English words. For someone who doesn't read the tag-wiki, it may not be directly apparent that this refers to the the language Jun 9, 2014 at 23:30
  • 17
    @psubsee2003 "Swift" is a much less common word than "Go", "Windows", or "Logo". Aside from the object store mention in the question, what else would a user confuse it with?
    – Jeremy
    Jun 9, 2014 at 23:33
  • 12
    cough "don't downvote" cough.
    – bjb568
    Jun 10, 2014 at 1:03
  • 6
    there are other things that are called swift. Jun 10, 2014 at 1:35
  • 1
    @Johnston: Javascript is an ECMA standard, C++ is an ANSI-ISO-you name it standard, Apple's Swift is... what?
    – Ben Voigt
    Jun 10, 2014 at 2:32
  • 4
    @BenVoigt The ECMA standard names it "ECMAScript", not "JavaScript", so that's no justification for the javascript tag name.
    – Jeremy
    Jun 10, 2014 at 2:33
  • 23
    There are other things called swift, and people suck at tagging. Using just the term alone is going to ask for constant mistagging. Please, won't somebody think of the stupid people!?
    – Charles
    Jun 10, 2014 at 2:48
  • 6
    Yes, for example, someone writing software to automate the opening & closing of energy-saving windows may choose the [windows] tag inappropriately. Please, let's choose an awkward name for such people.
    – J0e3gan
    Jun 10, 2014 at 6:07
  • 5
    @J0e3gan Luckily, windows-operating-system just fits the tag character limit. :)
    – Jeremy
    Jun 10, 2014 at 6:20
  • 4
    +1 If Swift becomes a major language, tagging it as swift-language or apple-swift would be as awkward as tagging java-language or oracle-java. And if Swift doesn't become a major language (seems unlikely), then it won't matter. StackOverflow is a programming forum, and so it's safe to assume the context of programming in our tags.
    – yshavit
    Jun 10, 2014 at 9:41
  • The other Swift gets 2 questions/month. Even if they were all mistagged it's still not what I'd call "constant mistagging".
    – JJJ
    Jun 10, 2014 at 9:44
  • 6
    Swift is going to become a huge language because it will be the standard language to develop iOS apps. Why would anyone start a green-field project in Objective-C in a few years from now? We don't need any special case here. Treat it like any other mainstream language.
    – usr
    Jun 10, 2014 at 12:08
  • 2
    Sometimes you want to give the shortest, most logical, tag to the most common language and not to the first one. It's a numbers game. If 100% of the questions about the other language are tagged as swift, even if its Apples tag, you will end up with a handful of questions a year. (Or none at all, I still have to see a single question about the other swift) If only 1% of question about the Apple language are tagged wrong you'll get several questions with wrong tags a day. If you think people suck at tagging swift is the best option. Jun 10, 2014 at 13:42
  • 3
    @MatthiasBauch: Actually, blacklisting the tag swift will completely cure any mistagging. Unless you think an Apple programmer presented with the list of *swift* tags can't reliably pick apple-swift from that list...
    – Ben Voigt
    Jun 10, 2014 at 13:47
50
votes

13
  • 8
    I honestly think this is the best option, and it would match the other Swift tag. The only reason it died is because there were no questions tagged with it when the merge took place.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Jun 10, 2014 at 0:24
  • @animuson i did try to convert all of them but someone rolled back all my changes :( Jun 10, 2014 at 1:34
  • I have my doubts that Apple will ever surrender control of the language. However, Microsoft has open-sourced and standardized C# (with ISO and ECMA) such that I'd be a bit reluctant to simply call it "Microsoft C#", though they still control it. I could imagine Apple doing the same, and in that case this name would be an unfortunate choice.
    – Jeremy
    Jun 10, 2014 at 9:57
  • 6
    swift-lang.org/main Jun 10, 2014 at 10:11
  • 6
    There is already a language called Swift, though. Sure, this might be a bit of a pain for Apple. Who cares? They should have chosen another name if they don't like apple-swift.
    – mrr
    Jun 10, 2014 at 12:33
  • @JeremyBanks: If the ownership changed, the tag could change too. That's why we have synonyms.
    – Ben Voigt
    Jun 10, 2014 at 13:36
  • 4
    @MilesRout I guess Apple could not care less about the swift tag on stackoverflow. But the 1200 people that asked questions (don't forget the ~2000 people that answered them) about the language in less than a week might actually care. Again, how many questions have been asked about the other swift? No, the answer is not 2 a week, openstack-swift is not a language. The answer might as well be 0. I looked for a while and could not find one, can you? Jun 10, 2014 at 13:38
  • 4
    @MatthiasBauch: How about the tens of thousands of existing web sites that already used "swift" in the context of computing? Apple created the naming conflict (yet again!), let's not reward them for it. The resolution is to create parallel more descriptive tags for all parties and ban the unqualified tag.
    – Ben Voigt
    Jun 10, 2014 at 13:45
  • This one is best, for the sake of people looking for stuff on actual swift (the hpc parallel computing one) quickly filter out questions that belong to the vanity/niche language belonging to apple.
    – tacaswell
    Jun 10, 2014 at 13:51
  • 1
    @BenVoigt And why exactly should the short tag be banned? Just because there are other things, mostly currently irrelevant for SO (the one thing relevant is tagged openstack-swift), that are named swift? I have yet to see a single question about the "actual swift". That swift language only became very important since Apple has released their swift. In reality there will be no tagging conflicts. And even if there would be this one tagging conflict every month, it doesn't justify the inconvenience of not being able to write [swift] myquery in the searchbar. Jun 10, 2014 at 14:07
  • @MatthiasBauch: The only rational rule is that there are always parallel qualified tags, and if one of the uses is both oldest and most prevalent, it gets the unqualified tag, otherwise the unqualified tag is blacklisted. Pretty sure we would get 90%+ community agreement on that wording of the rule, if discussed sitewide rather than specific to one tag. So what makes swift deserving of an exception?
    – Ben Voigt
    Jun 10, 2014 at 15:32
  • 1
    @BenVoigt Swift doesn't need an "exception" because it would be silly to create a general-purpose rule instead of just evaluating individual cases on their merits, even though programmers always feel compelled to do so (frequently leading to the sin of premature and inappropriate generalization). But even if there were such a rule, Swift would deserve an exception because it already accounts for 2% of question activity on Stack Overflow, which should set it clearly apart from any other instances you'd be applying this rule to.
    – Jeremy
    Jun 10, 2014 at 17:56
  • I do not think apple is a problem in the tagname, but if it ever gets out of Apple, you could call it swift-native as the fourth alternative to differentiate from the scripting language existing. Jun 10, 2014 at 18:17
4
votes

4
  • 5
    this is ambiguous with another language. Jun 10, 2014 at 1:36
  • 11
    And how many question do we have for the other language? Jun 10, 2014 at 2:31
  • The downside of this is that when a user gets the auto-completion help while typing swift, it isn't obvious whether swift-language is the one they way.
    – Ben Voigt
    Jun 10, 2014 at 13:48
  • 5
    And how is the most upvoted "swift" proposal is not ambiguous? Jun 10, 2014 at 18:14

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .